Are Religion and Science Compatible? 2.0

[Chricoma]

Yes. Atleast within Christianity, Islam, Sikhi, and Buddhism.

[Upper Nan]

Yes, they are.

[Bombadil]

Faith is merely an indulgence, it's a double chip chocolate cookie when you're wallowing in self-pity on the sofa, or perhaps a nice vanilla ice cream on a hot day as you appreciate the world around you. It's comfort food.

It's not necessary, lots of people have their own version and some don't need it at all. It's merely a tool to achieve what can adequately be achieved without such things.

People don't die for chocolate chip cookies or ice cream, people often do for their faith.

I'm not telling you to live your life a certain way. I don't care what you do. But simplifying the concept of faith to a mere comfort completely disregards the lengths people go to in order to protect their faith, defying government oppression and terrorist threats in order to practice and stay true to it. If someone stuck an AK to your head and told you to swear off cookies and ice cream forever, nobody would care enough to risk getting a bullet in the head over it.

It's pure arrogance to even suggest that.

I was being nice, religion is sucking down on an addictive cigarette to calm your anxiety, or injecting heroin to obliviate yourself from reality.. there's a reason it's called the opiate of the masses.

People will happily kill for the above.

[Salus Maior]

People don't die for chocolate chip cookies or ice cream, people often do for their faith.

I'm not telling you to live your life a certain way. I don't care what you do. But simplifying the concept of faith to a mere comfort completely disregards the lengths people go to in order to protect their faith, defying government oppression and terrorist threats in order to practice and stay true to it. If someone stuck an AK to your head and told you to swear off cookies and ice cream forever, nobody would care enough to risk getting a bullet in the head over it.

It's pure arrogance to even suggest that.

I was being nice, religion is sucking down on an addictive cigarette to calm your anxiety, or injecting heroin to obliviate yourself from reality.. there's a reason it's called the opiate of the masses.

People will happily kill for the above.

By Karl Marx, who also thought paid labor was slavery and private property as a concept was inherently evil.

Sure, fundamentalist religion is a bit like that. But what about victims? Such as the 21 Coptic martyrs kidnapped by ISIS and refused conversion, and subsequently were beheaded with knives on video? Are they equals to crack addicts in your eyes too? What about the Buddhist monk protester in South Vietnam, who burned himself alive in protest of the government's harsh persecution of Buddhists, and created a mass movement for reform? Guess his death was something pitiable, like a heroin addict dying in the streets.

[The Cosmic Mainframe]

By Karl Marx, who also thought paid labor was slavery and private property as a concept was inherently evil.

He wasn't wrong tho

Karl Marx also made some more positive statements on religion, although he remained avowedly atheist. Basically, his position was more complex than "religion bad."

[Dylar]

By Karl Marx, who also thought paid labor was slavery and private property as a concept was inherently evil.

He wasn't wrong tho

Karl Marx also made some more positive statements on religion, although he remained avowedly atheist. Basically, his position was more complex than "religion bad."

We talking about the same Karl Marx that wrote On the Jewish Question?

[The Cosmic Mainframe]

He wasn't wrong tho

Karl Marx also made some more positive statements on religion, although he remained avowedly atheist. Basically, his position was more complex than "religion bad."

We talking about the same Karl Marx that wrote On the Jewish Question?

Never said he was 100% right about everything.

[Bombadil]

I was being nice, religion is sucking down on an addictive cigarette to calm your anxiety, or injecting heroin to obliviate yourself from reality.. there's a reason it's called the opiate of the masses.

People will happily kill for the above.

By Karl Marx, who also thought paid labor was slavery and private property as a concept was inherently evil.

Well just a page earlier I hardly disagree much with him.

Sure, fundamentalist religion is a bit like that. But what about victims? Such as the 21 Coptic martyrs kidnapped by ISIS and refused conversion, and subsequently were beheaded with knives on video? Are they equals to crack addicts in your eyes too? What about the Buddhist monk protester in South Vietnam, who burned himself alive in protest of the government's harsh persecution of Buddhists, and created a mass movement for reform? Guess his death was something pitiable, like a heroin addict dying in the streets.

Two sides of the same coin, though to be a little more nuanced on the subject, the only thing worth dying for is the protection of others to remain free from imposition of an idea or belief that suppresses the right to choose, if that includes the freedom to choose your religion then so be it, I can accept that.

[Salus Maior]

By Karl Marx, who also thought paid labor was slavery and private property as a concept was inherently evil.

Well just a page earlier I hardly disagree much with him.

Sure, fundamentalist religion is a bit like that. But what about victims? Such as the 21 Coptic martyrs kidnapped by ISIS and refused conversion, and subsequently were beheaded with knives on video? Are they equals to crack addicts in your eyes too? What about the Buddhist monk protester in South Vietnam, who burned himself alive in protest of the government's harsh persecution of Buddhists, and created a mass movement for reform? Guess his death was something pitiable, like a heroin addict dying in the streets.

Two sides of the same coin, though to be a little more nuanced on the subject, the only thing worth dying for is the protection of others to remain free from imposition of an idea or belief that suppresses the right to choose, if that includes the freedom to choose your religion then so be it, I can accept that.

No. Because if it were merely a comfort they wouldn't choose tortuous death over apostasy from their faith. I don't think even an addict would die for the name of heroin, the concept of heroin, because there's no thinking involved in addiction. It's just a need -> fullfill need feedback. They would probably say "I promise to not take any more drugs" under a barrel of a gun, but that would be a lie and would try to sneak whatever drug when they would get away with it. They would live another day in order to take more drugs.

These people aren't doing that.

[Bombadil]

Well just a page earlier I hardly disagree much with him.



Two sides of the same coin, though to be a little more nuanced on the subject, the only thing worth dying for is the protection of others to remain free from imposition of an idea or belief that suppresses the right to choose, if that includes the freedom to choose your religion then so be it, I can accept that.

No. Because if it were merely a comfort they wouldn't choose tortuous death over apostasy from their faith. I don't think even an addict would die for the name of heroin, the concept of heroin, because there's no thinking involved in addiction. It's just a need -> fullfill need feedback. They would probably say "I promise to not take any more drugs" under a barrel of a gun, but that would be a lie and would try to sneak whatever drug when they would get away with it. They would live another day in order to take more drugs.

These people aren't doing that.

I dunno, I think you'd be surprised as to the extent of what a heroin addict will go through to get a fix.

Still, it's all a spectrum from chowing down on a cookie and full on addiction. Pretty sure feelings of religious intensity spark the same endorphin receptors as heroin.

Still, to the topic, one can suppose a supreme force exists but that's it, you cannot say anything about the intent of that force, there is no consistency to determine one single factor as to 'what god wants', so in the end you can believe all you want but, ultimately, it's irrelevant to life, it's a crux, a comfort food and at worst an addiction.

Nothing to inform science.

[Salus Maior]

No. Because if it were merely a comfort they wouldn't choose tortuous death over apostasy from their faith. I don't think even an addict would die for the name of heroin, the concept of heroin, because there's no thinking involved in addiction. It's just a need -> fullfill need feedback. They would probably say "I promise to not take any more drugs" under a barrel of a gun, but that would be a lie and would try to sneak whatever drug when they would get away with it. They would live another day in order to take more drugs.

These people aren't doing that.

I dunno, I think you'd be surprised as to the extent of what a heroin addict will go through to get a fix.

Still, it's all a spectrum from chowing down on a cookie and full on addiction. Pretty sure feelings of religious intensity spark the same endorphin receptors as heroin.

Still, to the topic, one can suppose a supreme force exists but that's it, you cannot say anything about the intent of that force, there is no consistency to determine one single factor as to 'what god wants', so in the end you can believe all you want but, ultimately, it's irrelevant to life, it's a crux, a comfort food and at worst an addiction.

Nothing to inform science.

I don't think we're going to come to any agreement or mutual understanding anytime soon. I'll end my side of the discussion here.

[Sparkling Water]

There are science classes and theology classes. They are as comparable as Physical Education is to Foreign Language.

[Bombadil]

I dunno, I think you'd be surprised as to the extent of what a heroin addict will go through to get a fix.

Still, it's all a spectrum from chowing down on a cookie and full on addiction. Pretty sure feelings of religious intensity spark the same endorphin receptors as heroin.

Still, to the topic, one can suppose a supreme force exists but that's it, you cannot say anything about the intent of that force, there is no consistency to determine one single factor as to 'what god wants', so in the end you can believe all you want but, ultimately, it's irrelevant to life, it's a crux, a comfort food and at worst an addiction.

Nothing to inform science.

I don't think we're going to come to any agreement or mutual understanding anytime soon. I'll end my side of the discussion here.

Generally when one gets to the point of asking 'please state one thing that god specifically and clearly wants', I'm not isolating to just the Christian god, any god, one concrete thing that they want.. well conversations end there.

God wants us to... what?

[Neanderthaland]

There are science classes and theology classes. They are as comparable as Physical Education is to Foreign Language.

So creationism would be... sign language?

[Salus Maior]

I don't think we're going to come to any agreement or mutual understanding anytime soon. I'll end my side of the discussion here.

Generally when one gets to the point of asking 'please state one thing that god specifically and clearly wants', I'm not isolating to just the Christian god, any god, one concrete thing that they want.. well conversations end there.

God wants us to... what?

I wasn't under the impression you were expressly asking me that question.

In general, I'd say it's made pretty clear in Christian scripture what the Christian God wants generally.

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Any particulars I couldn't give you. I'm on the ground with everyone else here, bud. It's something everyone finds out on their own.

[Bombadil]

Generally when one gets to the point of asking 'please state one thing that god specifically and clearly wants', I'm not isolating to just the Christian god, any god, one concrete thing that they want.. well conversations end there.

God wants us to... what?

I wasn't under the impression you were expressly asking me that question.

In general, I'd say it's made pretty clear in Christian scripture what the Christian God wants generally.

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Any particulars I couldn't give you. I'm on the ground with everyone else here, bud. It's something everyone finds out on their own.

God created the entire universe, billions and billions of miles populated by empty space, he created the Emerald Cockroach Wasp.. so a small tribe in a small corner of a small planet, in fact just two people originally, should love him - and then in a fit of pique when they disobeyed him decided to subject them to famine, war, disease, painful childbirth, threw them and their entire lineage out of Eden so that generations and generations would suffer for those sins until we all learned our lesson and gave him the love he so desperately needs despite being an all-powerful being..

..damn girl.

[Salus Maior]

I wasn't under the impression you were expressly asking me that question.

In general, I'd say it's made pretty clear in Christian scripture what the Christian God wants generally.

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Any particulars I couldn't give you. I'm on the ground with everyone else here, bud. It's something everyone finds out on their own.

God created the entire universe, billions and billions of miles populated by empty space, he created the Emerald Cockroach Wasp.. so a small tribe in a small corner of a small planet, in fact just two people originally, should love him - and then in a fit of pique when they disobeyed him decided to subject them to famine, war, disease, painful childbirth, threw them and their entire lineage out of Eden so that generations and generations would suffer for those sins until we all learned our lesson and gave him the love he so desperately needs despite being an all-powerful being..

..damn girl.

I don't believe Genesis was literal, or that Adam and Eve were literal persons. I think it's more representative of the human condition, to put it shortly.

[Neanderthaland]

God created the entire universe, billions and billions of miles populated by empty space, he created the Emerald Cockroach Wasp.. so a small tribe in a small corner of a small planet, in fact just two people originally, should love him - and then in a fit of pique when they disobeyed him decided to subject them to famine, war, disease, painful childbirth, threw them and their entire lineage out of Eden so that generations and generations would suffer for those sins until we all learned our lesson and gave him the love he so desperately needs despite being an all-powerful being..

..damn girl.

I don't believe Genesis was literal, or that Adam and Eve were literal persons. I think it's more representative of the human condition, to put it shortly.

Obviously the story isn't true.

But take it as metaphor, what's so great about the metaphor? It mostly gets across that God is capricious, and kind of a diva.

[Bombadil]

God created the entire universe, billions and billions of miles populated by empty space, he created the Emerald Cockroach Wasp.. so a small tribe in a small corner of a small planet, in fact just two people originally, should love him - and then in a fit of pique when they disobeyed him decided to subject them to famine, war, disease, painful childbirth, threw them and their entire lineage out of Eden so that generations and generations would suffer for those sins until we all learned our lesson and gave him the love he so desperately needs despite being an all-powerful being..

..damn girl.

I don't believe Genesis was literal, or that Adam and Eve were literal persons. I think it's more representative of the human condition, to put it shortly.

Well the first commandment is irrelevant and I can do the second without being required to by God, in fact I can perfectly explain the benefits of altruism, fairness, cooperation and community through the science of evolution.

Monkeys understand concepts of fairness, did they need a god to tell them?

Look, I have no truck with people being religious, believe in what you want personally, it's as much a natural quirk of the brain as anything else, however if the only two commandments are to love god and be nice to your neighbour then it still, to the question of the OP, has nothing to do with science.

Religion and science can co-exist, theoretically, but they're not compatible, science is not a program that works with the OS of God, it is an OS in and of itself that works independent from belief structures.

[Salus Maior]

I don't believe Genesis was literal, or that Adam and Eve were literal persons. I think it's more representative of the human condition, to put it shortly.

Obviously the story isn't true.

But take it as metaphor, what's so great about the metaphor? It mostly gets across that God is capricious, and kind of a diva.

Adam and Eve jumping at the chance of "being like God" despite having literally everything in the garden isn't diva behavior?

I doubt we're going to come to any agreement when it comes to interpretation, and I doubt anyone here is really going to get anywhere with continued discussion.

[Neanderthaland]

Obviously the story isn't true.

But take it as metaphor, what's so great about the metaphor? It mostly gets across that God is capricious, and kind of a diva.

Adam and Eve jumping at the chance of "being like God" despite having literally everything in the garden isn't diva behavior?

Whataboutism.

But it's kind of true. There's nobody very likable in this story. Except for maybe the snake, who comes across as a lovable trickster archetype.

But then Milton would later transform him into a brooding bad-boy archetype. Inadvertently ushering in the era of Twilight. So that's a point against even him.

I doubt we're going to come to any agreement when it comes to interpretation, and I doubt anyone here is really going to get anywhere with continued discussion.

Well, I mean, is there a profound metaphor in there? What is it? Where is it?

There are profound parts of the Bible. I really like Philippians 4:8. But Genesis really just sounds like primitive mythology.

[Salus Maior]

Well, I mean, is there a profound metaphor in there? What is it? Where is it?

There are profound parts of the Bible. I really like Philippians 4:8. But Genesis really just sounds like primitive mythology.

I'm not going to catechize you right now.

You can always ask the CDT if you really want to know about Genesis interpretations. I'm sure they would be very nice so long as you're there in good faith.

[Mirjt]

There are science classes and theology classes. They are as comparable as Physical Education is to Foreign Language.

So creationism would be... sign language?

That feels a little disrespectful to sign language being compared to creationism (I am referring to the literalists, young earth interpretation). Sign Language is a group of complex and beautiful languages that are the most natural way to communicate for those whom are hearing impared. Both my parents were deaf, so I greatly respect sign language.

[Bombadil]

So creationism would be... sign language?

That feels a little disrespectful to sign language being compared to creationism (I am referring to the literalists, young earth interpretation). Sign Language is a group of complex and beautiful languages that are the most natural way to communicate for those whom are hearing impared. Both my parents were deaf, so I greatly respect sign language.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, sign language should be universalised and taught to everyone, it would be a great means of overcoming language issues as well as being very handy for covert signalling when the aliens come.

[Tundra Terra]

Truth be told one can look at the 3 main fields of higher thought as Religion, Philosophy, and Science. A far more interesting look at it in a broad sense is that it could be considered as the scientific formula at work with the hypothesis (Religion), the steps taken forward to test or experiment with (Philosophy), and finally the results/failures/further questions one ends with (Science). Religions are formed to give answers to the world while also seeking to help it in its own fashion and practices. Philosophy attempts to understand the world through thought, observation, and deep contemplation of nature let alone man's nature. Science attempts to put everything in a testable, constant fact as it studies the machinations of life.

With that in mind I often look at them as not incompatible, but simply different processes to the same equation.