Are Religion and Science Compatible? 2.0

[Salus Maior]

People who say that a loving god would not let suffering happen seem to not get the point of trials and tribulations. In my own faith, I believe that I had a pre-mortal life where I accepted the plan of salvation, to go from being a spirit child to living with our Heavenly Father again. We must be tried, and while some situations may seem unjust or abhorrent, that is not a ground to despise a creator. We humans have tendencies to not think with an eternal or future perspective, inclined to want to avoid suffering altogether. It's in our genetic code-- self-preservation. I feel like if I didn't have any trials, and if humans weren't trusted, we couldn't become more like Him, or follow the example of Jesus, who suffered and was tested with every sin. Jesus initially blamed god when he was about to die, but deep down, he knew what to do. Joseph Smith knew he was going to die, and martyred himself. The apostles gave up their lives to spread the word. I don't question God's motives, I question **our** pessimism.

This is an excellent example of how religion and faith are absolutely disgusting to any rational person, or anyone who values human life.

The idea that a God we are supposed to love, and who is supposed to love us, would design a world which has the capacity for such injustice, and outright evil, is incredibly insulting. Claiming that intense suffering is a test, or a trial, from a higher power makes that higher power worthy of not only derision, but total and utter rejection. It should offend anyone who values life that a supposed God thinks that pain, torture, and suffering on untold thousands and million is justified by the fact that there "might" be an afterlife where we can live forever.

I honestly do not know how someone can look another human being in the eye, someone who has suffered a personal loss, like the poster several pages ago, or a larger tragedy like natural disasters, and say "This is a trial," or "God works in mysterious ways," or the many other utterly offensive platitudes offered up by the Faithful. It is an abhorrent way to view the world and an absolutely terrible thing to say to someone who is suffering.

If God is real, and allows these things to occur as a test of faith, he is an incredible narcissist, and a total psychopath, who is not worth a second thought from anyone.

Would good really exist without the possibility of evil? This isn't meant to invalidate anyone's suffering, and we should work for the betterment and comfort of others, but without hardship we wouldn't be able to develop as people, nor have the opportunity to do good for others.

[The Cosmic Mainframe]

*sigh*

I guess we're going with 'hostile' in this thread then.

I'mma just be here humming 'why can't we be friends?'.

Everything seemed relatively mild until someone insulted another person's mentally disabled father.

That is when things really went downhill but there were plenty of bad faith arguments much earlier in the thread.

Sadly, debating religion doesn't tend to lend itself to civil discussion from either side.

[Spiritual Republic of Caryton]

*sigh*

I guess we're going with 'hostile' in this thread then.

I'mma just be here humming 'why can't we be friends?'.

Everything seemed relatively mild until someone insulted another person's mentally disabled father.

This forum topic is a trial already, though.

"Be still, my soul: your best, your heav'nly Friend-
through thorny ways leads to a joyful end."

[Spiritual Republic of Caryton]

This is an excellent example of how religion and faith are absolutely disgusting to any rational person, or anyone who values human life.

The idea that a God we are supposed to love, and who is supposed to love us, would design a world which has the capacity for such injustice, and outright evil, is incredibly insulting. Claiming that intense suffering is a test, or a trial, from a higher power makes that higher power worthy of not only derision, but total and utter rejection. It should offend anyone who values life that a supposed God thinks that pain, torture, and suffering on untold thousands and million is justified by the fact that there "might" be an afterlife where we can live forever.

I honestly do not know how someone can look another human being in the eye, someone who has suffered a personal loss, like the poster several pages ago, or a larger tragedy like natural disasters, and say "This is a trial," or "God works in mysterious ways," or the many other utterly offensive platitudes offered up by the Faithful. It is an abhorrent way to view the world and an absolutely terrible thing to say to someone who is suffering.

If God is real, and allows these things to occur as a test of faith, he is an incredible narcissist, and a total psychopath, who is not worth a second thought from anyone.

Would good really exist without the possibility of evil? This isn't meant to invalidate anyone's suffering, and we should work for the betterment and comfort of others, but without hardship we wouldn't be able to develop as people, nor have the opportunity to do good for others.

Amen.

[Salus Maior]

Everything seemed relatively mild until someone insulted another person's mentally disabled father.

Weird, right?

[Senkaku]

This is an excellent example of how religion and faith are absolutely disgusting to any rational person, or anyone who values human life.

The idea that a God we are supposed to love, and who is supposed to love us, would design a world which has the capacity for such injustice, and outright evil, is incredibly insulting. Claiming that intense suffering is a test, or a trial, from a higher power makes that higher power worthy of not only derision, but total and utter rejection. It should offend anyone who values life that a supposed God thinks that pain, torture, and suffering on untold thousands and million is justified by the fact that there "might" be an afterlife where we can live forever.

I honestly do not know how someone can look another human being in the eye, someone who has suffered a personal loss, like the poster several pages ago, or a larger tragedy like natural disasters, and say "This is a trial," or "God works in mysterious ways," or the many other utterly offensive platitudes offered up by the Faithful. It is an abhorrent way to view the world and an absolutely terrible thing to say to someone who is suffering.

If God is real, and allows these things to occur as a test of faith, he is an incredible narcissist, and a total psychopath, who is not worth a second thought from anyone.

Would good really exist without the possibility of evil? This isn't meant to invalidate anyone's suffering, and we should work for the betterment and comfort of others, but without hardship we wouldn't be able to develop as people, nor have the opportunity to do good for others.

I think this case would make sense if there were no middle ground between "no suffering everything's great" and "your society will have to build multiple huge facilities to take care of all the kids who're gonna get blood cancer lmao"

[Mirjt]

You claimed his father was responsible for his own Alzheimer's, which is insulting in addition to not understanding how Alzheimer's works. (Don't mock people about their personal losses.)

Also, it's called the Problem of Evil. He's not blaming God, he's saying that a benevolent god would not allow that kind of natural suffering.

People who say that a loving god would not let suffering happen seem to not get the point of trials and tribulations. In my own faith, I believe that I had a pre-mortal life where I accepted the plan of salvation, to go from being a spirit child to living with our Heavenly Father again. We must be tried, and while some situations may seem unjust or abhorrent, that is not a ground to despise a creator. We humans have tendencies to not think with an eternal or future perspective, inclined to want to avoid suffering altogether. It's in our genetic code-- self-preservation. I feel like if I didn't have any trials, and if humans weren't trusted, we couldn't become more like Him, or follow the example of Jesus, who suffered and was tested with every sin. Jesus initially blamed god when he was about to die, but deep down, he knew what to do. Joseph Smith knew he was going to die, and martyred himself. The apostles gave up their lives to spread the word. I don't question God's motives, I question **our** pessimism.

I personally am not a member of the Church of Latter Day Saints (and I disagree with several aspects of the Book of Mormon), but I do have a number of friends whom are Mormon, and I agree with the way they address the Problem of Evil/Suffering. Basically if we are God's children, we are sort of like baby Gods, and God wants us to grow, but for whatever reason having to live a life that involves sin and suffering is either necessary or is the best way/option to allow us to grow, and that is why it is necessary. Mormons belief, as you mention, even believe that during pre-mortality every one who would be born into a life on Earth agreed and consented to the process, and only about two thirds of the souls that existed accepted God's offer.

Also, while not really a religion, or religious belief, I like the idea presented in the short story "The Egg" by Andy Weir (here's a link to a telling of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI ). Though I am not 100% comfortable by the solipsism presented in the story.

[Washington Resistance Army]

You claimed his father was responsible for his own Alzheimer's, which is insulting in addition to not understanding how Alzheimer's works. (Don't mock people about their personal losses.)

Also, it's called the Problem of Evil. He's not blaming God, he's saying that a benevolent god would not allow that kind of natural suffering.

People who say that a loving god would not let suffering happen seem to not get the point of trials and tribulations. In my own faith, I believe that I had a pre-mortal life where I accepted the plan of salvation, to go from being a spirit child to living with our Heavenly Father again. We must be tried, and while some situations may seem unjust or abhorrent, that is not a ground to despise a creator. We humans have tendencies to not think with an eternal or future perspective, inclined to want to avoid suffering altogether. It's in our genetic code-- self-preservation. I feel like if I didn't have any trials, and if humans weren't trusted, we couldn't become more like Him, or follow the example of Jesus, who suffered and was tested with every sin. Jesus initially blamed god when he was about to die, but deep down, he knew what to do. Joseph Smith knew he was going to die, and martyred himself. The apostles gave up their lives to spread the word. I don't question God's motives, I question **our** pessimism.

You can believe in a loving god that allows tribulation, but you can't really logically reconcile an all knowing, all loving and all powerful god. You run into lots of logical problems with such a being.

[Albrenia]

While remaining civil, the whole 'Problem of Evil' thing is quite a topic. My own opinion is that suffering on its own is not much of a problem so much as the seemingly pointless, needless suffering which is a problem.

I'd just think a good God would not allow some of the horrible shit to happen which does happen. At the very least stuff like children being born without functioning lungs or similarly horrific things which have nothing to do with man's free will.

[Spiritual Republic of Caryton]

People who say that a loving god would not let suffering happen seem to not get the point of trials and tribulations. In my own faith, I believe that I had a pre-mortal life where I accepted the plan of salvation, to go from being a spirit child to living with our Heavenly Father again. We must be tried, and while some situations may seem unjust or abhorrent, that is not a ground to despise a creator. We humans have tendencies to not think with an eternal or future perspective, inclined to want to avoid suffering altogether. It's in our genetic code-- self-preservation. I feel like if I didn't have any trials, and if humans weren't trusted, we couldn't become more like Him, or follow the example of Jesus, who suffered and was tested with every sin. Jesus initially blamed god when he was about to die, but deep down, he knew what to do. Joseph Smith knew he was going to die, and martyred himself. The apostles gave up their lives to spread the word. I don't question God's motives, I question **our** pessimism.

I personally am not a member of the Church of Latter Day Saints (and I disagree with several aspects of the Book of Mormon), but I do have a number of friends whom are Mormon, and I agree with the way they address the Problem of Evil/Suffering. Basically if we are God's children, we are sort of like baby Gods, and God wants us to grow, but for whatever reason having to live a life that involves sin and suffering is either necessary or is the best way/option to allow us to grow, and that is why it is necessary. Mormons belief, as you mention, even believe that during pre-mortality every one who would be born into a life on Earth agreed and consented to the process, and only about two thirds of the souls that existed accepted God's offer.

Also, while not really a religion, or religious belief, I like the idea presented in the short story "The Egg" by Andy Weir (here's a link to a telling of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI ). Though I am not 100% comfortable by the solipsism presented in the story.

Thank you for the respectful reference to the church! I didn't think people would think the plan of salvation would make sense but you explained it perfectly well!

[Salus Maior]

Would good really exist without the possibility of evil? This isn't meant to invalidate anyone's suffering, and we should work for the betterment and comfort of others, but without hardship we wouldn't be able to develop as people, nor have the opportunity to do good for others.

I think this case would make sense if there were no middle ground between "no suffering everything's great" and "your society will have to build multiple huge facilities to take care of all the kids who're gonna get blood cancer lmao"

Well, then I suggest we figure out why so many children are getting blood cancer and how to prevent it; as well as apply ourselves faithfully in comforting those that do already have it and do our best for them.

[Senkaku]

I think this case would make sense if there were no middle ground between "no suffering everything's great" and "your society will have to build multiple huge facilities to take care of all the kids who're gonna get blood cancer lmao"

Well, then I suggest we figure out why so many children are getting blood cancer and how to prevent it; as well as apply ourselves faithfully in comforting those that do already have it and do our best for them.

I agree, but I don't think it's unreasonable to dispense with the idea that God really just loves the shit out of all of us along the way lol

[Jedi Council]

This is an excellent example of how religion and faith are absolutely disgusting to any rational person, or anyone who values human life.

The idea that a God we are supposed to love, and who is supposed to love us, would design a world which has the capacity for such injustice, and outright evil, is incredibly insulting. Claiming that intense suffering is a test, or a trial, from a higher power makes that higher power worthy of not only derision, but total and utter rejection. It should offend anyone who values life that a supposed God thinks that pain, torture, and suffering on untold thousands and million is justified by the fact that there "might" be an afterlife where we can live forever.

I honestly do not know how someone can look another human being in the eye, someone who has suffered a personal loss, like the poster several pages ago, or a larger tragedy like natural disasters, and say "This is a trial," or "God works in mysterious ways," or the many other utterly offensive platitudes offered up by the Faithful. It is an abhorrent way to view the world and an absolutely terrible thing to say to someone who is suffering.

If God is real, and allows these things to occur as a test of faith, he is an incredible narcissist, and a total psychopath, who is not worth a second thought from anyone.

Would good really exist without the possibility of evil? This isn't meant to invalidate anyone's suffering, and we should work for the betterment and comfort of others, but without hardship we wouldn't be able to develop as people, nor have the opportunity to do good for others.

My contention is not that bad things do not help people grow and change, this is proven.

My contention is that it is immoral for an ostensibly benevolent, and omnipotent, God to create a world wherein there is incredible injustice and suffering, such that it is far more damaging than the lessons we learn by it.

What lessons did Haiti need to learn from the earthquake that killed between 100,000-350,000 people? Was Haiti in need of something especially bad so it could "develop" more?
What about South East Asia Tsunami that killed almost a quarter of a million people? How can we say that that allowed for people do do good for others, so it was justifiable for God to allow it?

And that is just two natural disasters! Think of the diseases, and numerous other abhorrent things that occur on our planet.

It is a disgusting philosophy. And, as I said, if God really works in that way, I want nothing to do with an entity with so much blood on its hands.

[Mirjt]

Everything seemed relatively mild until someone insulted another person's mentally disabled father.

That is when things really went downhill but there were plenty of bad faith arguments much earlier in the thread.

Sadly, debating religion doesn't tend to lend itself to civil discussion from either side.

I think that while there has been some uncivil posts, there have been a decent number of people who are trying to be civil (myself included, at least I hope I have been civil).

[Albrenia]

That is when things really went downhill but there were plenty of bad faith arguments much earlier in the thread.

Sadly, debating religion doesn't tend to lend itself to civil discussion from either side.

I think that while there has been some uncivil posts, there have been a decent number of people who are trying to be civil (myself included, at least I hope I have been civil).

You have, as far as I can tell.

[Salus Maior]

Well, then I suggest we figure out why so many children are getting blood cancer and how to prevent it; as well as apply ourselves faithfully in comforting those that do already have it and do our best for them.

I agree, but I don't think it's unreasonable to dispense with the idea that God really just loves the shit out of all of us along the way lol

I disagree. Because it's God that commands we care for the sick and for children in such a way, and is our help as we strive for that goal.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I agree, but I don't think it's unreasonable to dispense with the idea that God really just loves the shit out of all of us along the way lol

I disagree. Because it's God that commands we care for the sick and for children in such a way, and is our help as we strive for that goal.

If you think about it, after watching our world, it’s not hard for some to reach that conclusion, that God doesn’t love everyone.

[The Cosmic Mainframe]

That is when things really went downhill but there were plenty of bad faith arguments much earlier in the thread.

Sadly, debating religion doesn't tend to lend itself to civil discussion from either side.

I think that while there has been some uncivil posts, there have been a decent number of people who are trying to be civil (myself included, at least I hope I have been civil).

I will say you have been extremely civil in this thread. But it was inevitable that some uncivil posts would be made, especially with a topic like religion where opinions are so strong. The main people active in this thread have not been nearly as civil as you have.

[Albrenia]

I agree, but I don't think it's unreasonable to dispense with the idea that God really just loves the shit out of all of us along the way lol

I disagree. Because it's God that commands we care for the sick and for children in such a way, and is our help as we strive for that goal.

It does strike me as upsetting that it is within His power to end such needless suffering when we are unable, though, and He just doesn't do it. I'm cool with making us work for our happy ending, but not so cool with offering no hope for an end to someone's suffering other than death.

[Neutraligon]

I agree, but I don't think it's unreasonable to dispense with the idea that God really just loves the shit out of all of us along the way lol

I disagree. Because it's God that commands we care for the sick and for children in such a way, and is our help as we strive for that goal.

God commanding us to do something does not make them any better, after all, god is in the position to actually end the thing permanently.

[Neutraligon]

I disagree. Because it's God that commands we care for the sick and for children in such a way, and is our help as we strive for that goal.

It does strike me as upsetting that it is within His power to end such needless suffering when we are unable, though, and He just doesn't do it. I'm cool with making us work for our happy ending, but not so cool with offering no hope for an end to someone's suffering other than death.

Oh I see it as much worse then that, as god does not face the suffering that people face every day of their life for years. And no, 3 days does not count.

[Hanafuridake]

Religion glorifies science and science glorifies religion. Science makes it possible to understand the natural world and to gather information about the mind and body while religion makes it possible to understand the divine nature of the universe.

Trying to be so harmonious doesn't change the nature of things. Science is exploring the nature of the universe, and many scientists are advancing on the way of exploring truth

Scientists often fail to actually challenge their own preconceptions and have a very philistine attitude toward religion and philosophy because they think that everything they do is absent of those things because they assume that the positivist and realist culture that they've been raised in is the norm.

[Salus Maior]

My contention is not that bad things do not help people grow and change, this is proven.

My contention is that it is immoral for an ostensibly benevolent, and omnipotent, God to create a world wherein there is incredible injustice and suffering, such that it is far more damaging than the lessons we learn by it.

What lessons did Haiti need to learn from the earthquake that killed between 100,000-350,000 people? Was Haiti in need of something especially bad so it could "develop" more?
What about South East Asia Tsunami that killed almost a quarter of a million people? How can we say that that allowed for people do do good for others, so it was justifiable for God to allow it?

And that is just two natural disasters! Think of the diseases, and numerous other abhorrent things that occur on our planet.

It is a disgusting philosophy. And, as I said, if God really works in that way, I want nothing to do with an entity with so much blood on its hands.

I disagree in my own experience.

I also disagree with the interpretation that we're meant to be "taught" something by every hardship. Sometimes there is nothing to be learned when something bad happens, good people get hurt. I can't give you any answers as to why those things happened in a spiritual sense, nobody could because that's beyond our ken. But at the very least, such disasters are opportunities to think beyond ourselves and do good for others, whether it happens or is allowed to happen for that reason I can't say, but it's clear from the Christian outlook that's our call to be there for those that suffer.

[Salus Maior]

I disagree. Because it's God that commands we care for the sick and for children in such a way, and is our help as we strive for that goal.

God commanding us to do something does not make them any better, after all, god is in the position to actually end the thing permanently.

We'll get there.

[Senkaku]

I agree, but I don't think it's unreasonable to dispense with the idea that God really just loves the shit out of all of us along the way lol

I disagree. Because it's God that commands we care for the sick and for children in such a way, and is our help as we strive for that goal.

Yeah, after he got them sick.

Listen, giving kids a stomach bug or whatever, and making the rest of us take care of them and be nice? That's fine, I see the case for saying we need a little adversity to overcome in our own lives and to make us more caring and empathetic towards others, etc. Maybe even appendicitis is morally sorta understandable - it's serious enough that it really frightens people and demands that we take caring for each other seriously, but it's also pretty straightforward to treat and almost everyone can catch it in time and have it dealt with.

Giving toddlers end-stage bone cancer, where no one could've done anything to detect it in time and no one can save them? Starting wars that result in entire cities full of people being carpet-bombed, or setting off volcanoes that bury whole provinces in ash? All that shit seems a little overboard, if the goal is to make us ultimately better for having gone through it. No one is "better" for having almost everyone they know killed in some freak boating disaster.