The Future of China

[Shanghai industrial complex]

So I ask you, students don't have guns. So, the CCP will catch them and throw them in jail. Why do they have to do this stupid action that only the villains in American movies can do?What are the benefits?I don't know if you've ever thought about this statement.Or have you actually seen the bodies in Tian'anmen Square?
Have you ever thought that the news and reading materials about Tiananmen always say that thousands of people have been killed, all the videos have. But it's always missing, blood.Where is the most important part?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4woMuFZAx88

A despotic police state doesn't need direct provocation to kill. And yes, I have seen the bodies. I have seen the blood. In photos and video recordings from reporters showing the world what China did there. Do you really think the PRC would let the Chinese people know the full truth of what they did? You can't make a judgement call on a situation if the perpetrator controls the information you're allowed to see.

Police state?I doubt you're talking about America.I can find more and more images of China in media propaganda in the US recently.Such as deception, surveillance, arrogance, imperialism, etc.
It makes me wonder about the photos.Can you tell me the key words?Because I haven't seen it, I want to see it
In addition, how do you determine that my access to information is controlled by the Communist Party of China? I think you're questioning my ability to receive information.CCP's black history? I know some.For example, the anti rightist movement, the great famine, the suppression of counter revolution, etc.It all killed hundreds of thousands of people.Does this prove that the west is right?No.It's not logical.

[Rusozak]

A despotic police state doesn't need direct provocation to kill. And yes, I have seen the bodies. I have seen the blood. In photos and video recordings from reporters showing the world what China did there. Do you really think the PRC would let the Chinese people know the full truth of what they did? You can't make a judgement call on a situation if the perpetrator controls the information you're allowed to see.

Police state?I doubt you're talking about America.I can find more and more images of China in media propaganda in the US recently.Such as deception, surveillance, arrogance, imperialism, etc.
It makes me wonder about the photos.Can you tell me the key words?Because I haven't seen it, I want to see it
In addition, how do you determine that my access to information is controlled by the Communist Party of China? I think you're questioning my ability to receive information.CCP's black history? I know some.For example, the anti rightist movement, the great famine, the suppression of counter revolution, etc.It all killed hundreds of thousands of people.Does this prove that the west is right?No.It's not logical.

Put in A spoiler for graphic content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA4iKSeijZI
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ermath.jpg

There's your blood and bodies. Also, I don't think I ever said anything about America.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Massacred？If you use the word, it doesn't.If students are killed or injured,yes. In addition, there are videos and photos of students dragging the PLA out of armored vehicles and burning them or hanging them on street lamps.I don't know if you know this part.

I have heard this claimed (although did this also happen after the military started attacking?) yet if this is true why cover it up?
If the PRC is so innocent why do they so heavily restrict access to information regarding it?
If the truth would absolve them or justify them why not allow people to research it in detail, open up all documents and data they have, etc?

There is a concept in evidence law called the spoliation inference, that is if you destroy, alter or hide evidence it can be inferred that the evidence you attempted to cover up showed you in a negative light. The inference is that the party spoiling the evidence did so because the evidence was against what they are arguing.

Ask, to whom?Who has the right to investigate and question a sovereign state? You blame me for the Holocaust. It's you, not me,give evidence.The government made public the information, the Memoirs of the parties, the course of the incident and the party documents at that time.Video materials and photos are also available.It's just that west chose to ignore it.

In terms of interests, it is not the existence of the Holocaust that has a negative impact. But whether or not the Holocaust exists has a negative impact.Is the government on the right side without the Holocaust?Not always.The government is used to controlling information about major events

Since the west can get the Tiananmen video before and after the massacre, it should also be able to get the video when it happened.Where?

[Novus America]

A despotic police state doesn't need direct provocation to kill. And yes, I have seen the bodies. I have seen the blood. In photos and video recordings from reporters showing the world what China did there. Do you really think the PRC would let the Chinese people know the full truth of what they did? You can't make a judgement call on a situation if the perpetrator controls the information you're allowed to see.

Police state?I doubt you're talking about America.I can find more and more images of China in media propaganda in the US recently.Such as deception, surveillance, arrogance, imperialism, etc.
It makes me wonder about the photos.Can you tell me the key words?Because I haven't seen it, I want to see it
In addition, how do you determine that my access to information is controlled by the Communist Party of China? I think you're questioning my ability to receive information.CCP's black history? I know some.For example, the anti rightist movement, the great famine, the suppression of counter revolution, etc.It all killed hundreds of thousands of people.Does this prove that the west is right?No.It's not logical.

Are you denying the existence of the “Great Firewall” and that the PRC heavily restricts internet traffic and outright blocks and bans sites and and apps that it finds politically objectionable? You even acknowledged the existence of a “public opinion supervision department” and that “when your opinion gets enough attention, you'd better be careful”. By your own admission public political discourse is very much restricted and the CCP views public opinion as something potentially dangerous to be restricted an controlled.

It is much more complicated than the “West” being “right”, because the “West” is not a singular corporate entity with a singular agenda or viewpoint.
But certainly it means we can I freeze the CCP has something to hide. We can apply the spoliation inference here, if the CCP was right and those saying it engaged in a massacre (not just those on the “West”) are wrong, why does the CCP still refuse to allow independent research into the matter and still try to restrict access to information regarding it?

[Bombadil]

I have heard this claimed (although did this also happen after the military started attacking?) yet if this is true why cover it up?
If the PRC is so innocent why do they so heavily restrict access to information regarding it?
If the truth would absolve them or justify them why not allow people to research it in detail, open up all documents and data they have, etc?

There is a concept in evidence law called the spoliation inference, that is if you destroy, alter or hide evidence it can be inferred that the evidence you attempted to cover up showed you in a negative light. The inference is that the party spoiling the evidence did so because the evidence was against what they are arguing.

Ask, to whom?Who has the right to investigate and question a sovereign state? You blame me for the Holocaust. It's you, not me,give evidence.The government made public the information, the Memoirs of the parties, the course of the incident and the party documents at that time.Video materials and photos are also available.It's just that west chose to ignore it.

In terms of interests, it is not the existence of the Holocaust that has a negative impact. But whether or not the Holocaust exists has a negative impact.Is the government on the right side without the Holocaust?Not always.The government is used to controlling information about major events

Since the west can get the Tiananmen video before and after the massacre, it should also be able to get the video when it happened.Where?

Don't be disingenuous, it was a violent crackdown on peaceful demonstrations for better rights. 1989 wasn't the age of the mobile phone, and foreign media and embassies were placed on lockdown so video is very hard to come by. The tanks were clearly there, the chatter of machine guns was clearly heard, and plenty of mothers were left childless.

However there's plenty of eyewitness records, and more.. plenty of mothers seeking answers and getting none for why their child disappeared that night.

However I do agree that it's a little hypocritically held over China as if the US National Guard haven't shot students at Kent State, violent crackdown on protestors by the state is always a thing.

Still, the inability to properly hold a government accountable, to know the truth of what happened, to indulge in top down authority guided by a dictator holding a regressive ideology has no place in a good and decent future.

[Rusozak]

I have heard this claimed (although did this also happen after the military started attacking?) yet if this is true why cover it up?
If the PRC is so innocent why do they so heavily restrict access to information regarding it?
If the truth would absolve them or justify them why not allow people to research it in detail, open up all documents and data they have, etc?

There is a concept in evidence law called the spoliation inference, that is if you destroy, alter or hide evidence it can be inferred that the evidence you attempted to cover up showed you in a negative light. The inference is that the party spoiling the evidence did so because the evidence was against what they are arguing.

Ask, to whom?Who has the right to investigate and question a sovereign state? You blame me for the Holocaust. It's you, not me,give evidence.The government made public the information, the Memoirs of the parties, the course of the incident and the party documents at that time.Video materials and photos are also available.It's just that west chose to ignore it.

In terms of interests, it is not the existence of the Holocaust that has a negative impact. But whether or not the Holocaust exists has a negative impact.Is the government on the right side without the Holocaust?Not always.The government is used to controlling information about major events

Since the west can get the Tiananmen video before and after the massacre, it should also be able to get the video when it happened.Where?

See my post above that one if you want a video of during.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Police state?I doubt you're talking about America.I can find more and more images of China in media propaganda in the US recently.Such as deception, surveillance, arrogance, imperialism, etc.
It makes me wonder about the photos.Can you tell me the key words?Because I haven't seen it, I want to see it
In addition, how do you determine that my access to information is controlled by the Communist Party of China? I think you're questioning my ability to receive information.CCP's black history? I know some.For example, the anti rightist movement, the great famine, the suppression of counter revolution, etc.It all killed hundreds of thousands of people.Does this prove that the west is right?No.It's not logical.

Put in A spoiler for graphic content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA4iKSeijZI
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ermath.jpg

There's your blood and bodies. Also, I don't think I ever said anything about America.

Thank you.Now I see more details.As I said, there are casualties among the students. As I said, the PLA was also get attacked and killed.This proves that the PLA did shoot.If this happened elsewhere, should choose the word massacre?

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Don't be disingenuous, it was a violent crackdown on peaceful demonstrations for better rights. 1989 wasn't the age of the mobile phone, and foreign media and embassies were placed on lockdown so video is very hard to come by. The tanks were clearly there, the chatter of machine guns was clearly heard, and plenty of mothers were left childless.

However there's plenty of eyewitness records, and more.. plenty of mothers seeking answers and getting none for why their child disappeared that night.

However I do agree that it's a little hypocritically held over China as if the US National Guard haven't shot students at Kent State, violent crackdown on protestors by the state is always a thing.

Still, the inability to properly hold a government accountable, to know the truth of what happened, to indulge in top down authority guided by a dictator holding a regressive ideology has no place in a good and decent future.

Let me emphasize my point.
1.This is not a peaceful demonstration.
It's more violent than what happened in Hong Kong.At first, the PLA was ordered to ban shooting. So armored vehicles and some soldiers were burned.
2.It's a crackdown, but not a massacre
CCP gave an ultimatum, then the tank moved into Tian'anmen Gate and carried out the clearance.There were casualties in the process.But far from killing
3.This incident is national, not just in Tian'anmen
There are conflicts and casualties all over the country.
4.Let's take a look at the interviews with leaders of the student movement.
"We're going to bleed"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cakVEbcpiyA


And I'm glad they failed, otherwise China's economy will not be as strong as it is today. Not to mention the rise of China.Because of this, I don't expect any fair evaluation from the western media.

[Rusozak]

And I'm glad they failed, otherwise China's economy will not be as strong as it is today. Not to mention the rise of China.Because of this, I don't expect any fair evaluation from the western media.

Perhaps it shouldn't be. A nation actively participating in cultural genocide of the Uyghurs with one of the worst human rights violation records, a nation commanded by a government built on the deaths of millions. One that guns down unarmed protesters, allows atrocities like the Yulin dog festival and the abhorrent abuse of child and borderline slave labor. A government that hordes medical supplies while hiding an epidemic from the world. A nation like that cannot be allowed to have influence over the globe. It MUST be stopped. And it will, in time.

If you're still in denial of China's authoritarianism, then ask yourself. Does a free country need re-education camps and agencies dedicated to policing public opinion?

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Police state?I doubt you're talking about America.I can find more and more images of China in media propaganda in the US recently.Such as deception, surveillance, arrogance, imperialism, etc.
It makes me wonder about the photos.Can you tell me the key words?Because I haven't seen it, I want to see it
In addition, how do you determine that my access to information is controlled by the Communist Party of China? I think you're questioning my ability to receive information.CCP's black history? I know some.For example, the anti rightist movement, the great famine, the suppression of counter revolution, etc.It all killed hundreds of thousands of people.Does this prove that the west is right?No.It's not logical.

Are you denying the existence of the “Great Firewall” and that the PRC heavily restricts internet traffic and outright blocks and bans sites and and apps that it finds politically objectionable? You even acknowledged the existence of a “public opinion supervision department” and that “when your opinion gets enough attention, you'd better be careful”. By your own admission public political discourse is very much restricted and the CCP views public opinion as something potentially dangerous to be restricted an controlled.

It is much more complicated than the “West” being “right”, because the “West” is not a singular corporate entity with a singular agenda or viewpoint.
But certainly it means we can I freeze the CCP has something to hide. We can apply the spoliation inference here, if the CCP was right and those saying it engaged in a massacre (not just those on the “West”) are wrong, why does the CCP still refuse to allow independent research into the matter and still try to restrict access to information regarding it?

Yes.China's right to freedom of expression is restricted.In other words, where the CCP can supervise, there is only limited freedom of speech.This has never been the place where China denies.What's denied is that in the western media, China is an image propaganda with a high-pressure attitude towards the regulation of speech.It's a kind of demonized propaganda

The west is not a whole, but the western mainstream media often adopt the same attitude and tone in dealing with China's issues.

What China rejects is a Western investigation. Do you really think the position of independence research is really independent?Will the US accept independence research from China?

[Infected Mushroom]

And I'm glad they failed, otherwise China's economy will not be as strong as it is today. Not to mention the rise of China.Because of this, I don't expect any fair evaluation from the western media.

Perhaps it shouldn't be. A nation actively participating in cultural genocide of the Uyghurs with one of the worst human rights violation records, a nation commanded by a government built on the deaths of millions. One that guns down unarmed protesters, allows atrocities like the Yulin dog festival and the abhorrent abuse of child and borderline slave labor. A government that hordes medical supplies while hiding an epidemic from the world. A nation like that cannot be allowed to have influence over the globe. It MUST be stopped. And it will, in time.

If you're still in denial of China's authoritarianism, then ask yourself. Does a free country need re-education camps and agencies dedicated to policing public opinion?

Yes.

Schools do that in the west to an extent.

[Bombadil]

1.This is not a peaceful demonstration.
It's more violent than what happened in Hong Kong

This is a downright lie, they were mostly on hunger strike.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

And I'm glad they failed, otherwise China's economy will not be as strong as it is today. Not to mention the rise of China.Because of this, I don't expect any fair evaluation from the western media.

Perhaps it shouldn't be. A nation actively participating in cultural genocide of the Uyghurs with one of the worst human rights violation records, a nation commanded by a government built on the deaths of millions. One that guns down unarmed protesters, allows atrocities like the Yulin dog festival and the abhorrent abuse of child and borderline slave labor. A government that hordes medical supplies while hiding an epidemic from the world. A nation like that cannot be allowed to have influence over the globe. It MUST be stopped. And it will, in time.

If you're still in denial of China's authoritarianism, then ask yourself. Does a free country need re-education camps and agencies dedicated to policing public opinion?

If you must say so, we can find such a record in the history of every western country. If you insist that's true,oh sorry,I don't want to explain anything.Instead, I suggest you to find out why European and American rivals are all so evil.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

1.This is not a peaceful demonstration.
It's more violent than what happened in Hong Kong

This is a downright lie, they were mostly on hunger strike.

Is there a link between hunger strikes and violence?
Is that what you call peace?What are you doing with a Molotov cocktail? Is it used to make a fire for warm?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5v0vuLkP_s

[Mantesa]

However, even if the Chinese state is absolutely tyrannical, it does not rule with fear. The Communist Party has managed to keep power in such a large country through a pact with the Chinese people. If the Chinese agreed to give up their rights and obey the government, then the government would provide them with economic prosperity. I may sound like a dumb pact, but keep in mind this began shortly after Mao’s death. That’s why Hong Kong has never wanted to join China, they already had both rights and prosperity.

However if any of the parts breaks the pact, then the other retaliates. If the people want rights, then the government attacks the protestors, but if the government does not provide economic prosperity... well then everyone would start really revolting against the CCP. And the only way that China could remain a one party system in this case would require a return to Maoism, which is absolutely incompatible with an efficient economy. However, now China would be full of educated middle class people instead of illiterate peasants , unlike in 1989, which would probably make it much harder for Xi Jinping or whoever rules at the moment to avoid major Tiannanmen-like protest much more usually and could eventually lead the communist system down

Basically, if China gets a recession, the government would probably get the boot

[Nolo gap]

every square inch, or microhex, in ic terms, has A future.
nations, parties, ideologies and economies, all from time to time, come and go.

any place you name, this is true. china, america, nepal, anyplace, you name it.
the rocks are there, the trees are there, how sapient societies organize themselves, no single one is ever eternal.

[Albrenia]

So are we back to denying the CCP's crimes again?

Is anyone but SIC and IM convinced that the Tiananmen Square massacre didn't happen or was somehow 'justified'?

[Infected Mushroom]

This is a downright lie, they were mostly on hunger strike.

Is there a link between hunger strikes and violence?
Is that what you call peace?What are you doing with a Molotov cocktail? Is it used to make a fire for warm?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5v0vuLkP_s

This definitely looks like a violent protest

I agree that had the Tienamen rebellion succeeded, China may have devolved into civil war.

I’ve also seen the videos and photos of the rebels attacking Chinese authorities

[Nakena]

The more interesting question is perhaps if the students ever had a chance to succeed in the first place in any meaningful manner.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

However, even if the Chinese state is absolutely tyrannical, it does not rule with fear. The Communist Party has managed to keep power in such a large country through a pact with the Chinese people. If the Chinese agreed to give up their rights and obey the government, then the government would provide them with economic prosperity. I may sound like a dumb pact, but keep in mind this began shortly after Mao’s death. That’s why Hong Kong has never wanted to join China, they already had both rights and prosperity.

However if any of the parts breaks the pact, then the other retaliates. If the people want rights, then the government attacks the protestors, but if the government does not provide economic prosperity... well then everyone would start really revolting against the CCP. And the only way that China could remain a one party system in this case would require a return to Maoism, which is absolutely incompatible with an efficient economy. However, now China would be full of educated middle class people instead of illiterate peasants , unlike in 1989, which would probably make it much harder for Xi Jinping or whoever rules at the moment to avoid major Tiannanmen-like protest much more usually and could eventually lead the communist system down

Basically, if China gets a recession, the government would probably get the boot

It's not just the economy.There are many other questions.The reason why the CCP can take power is that it has solved the survival problem of the nation.It has to solve all the problems it encounters.If he doesn't solve the problem, the government's ability will be questioned.The CCP must fulfill all political commitments on time.Because the Chinese only see the result.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

The more interesting question is perhaps if the students ever had a chance to succeed in the first place in any meaningful manner.

Yes.If Deng dare not order the army to open fire or take action.China will die before the Soviet Union.

[Albrenia]

Just saying that if your government will crumble if it doesn't massacre its own citizens, it probably deserves to crumble.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Just saying that if your government will crumble if it doesn't massacre its own citizens, it probably deserves to crumble.

If you continue to use the word massacre,let's talk about why some Westerners know so much about massacres and concentration camps.

[Infected Mushroom]

However, even if the Chinese state is absolutely tyrannical, it does not rule with fear. The Communist Party has managed to keep power in such a large country through a pact with the Chinese people. If the Chinese agreed to give up their rights and obey the government, then the government would provide them with economic prosperity. I may sound like a dumb pact, but keep in mind this began shortly after Mao’s death. That’s why Hong Kong has never wanted to join China, they already had both rights and prosperity.

However if any of the parts breaks the pact, then the other retaliates. If the people want rights, then the government attacks the protestors, but if the government does not provide economic prosperity... well then everyone would start really revolting against the CCP. And the only way that China could remain a one party system in this case would require a return to Maoism, which is absolutely incompatible with an efficient economy. However, now China would be full of educated middle class people instead of illiterate peasants , unlike in 1989, which would probably make it much harder for Xi Jinping or whoever rules at the moment to avoid major Tiannanmen-like protest much more usually and could eventually lead the communist system down

Basically, if China gets a recession, the government would probably get the boot

It's not just the economy.There are many other questions.The reason why the CCP can take power is that it has solved the survival problem of the nation.It has to solve all the problems it encounters.If he doesn't solve the problem, the government's ability will be questioned.The CCP must fulfill all political commitments on time.Because the Chinese only see the result.

CCP defended China from Japanese invasion

CCP modernized the Chinese economy, kept the country together, built China into a world power

The country could have collapsed under American pressure but it stayed strong, through the spirit of socialism with Chinese characteristics

And now America is China’s greatest trade partner

[Albrenia]

Just saying that if your government will crumble if it doesn't massacre its own citizens, it probably deserves to crumble.

If you continue to use the word massacre,let's talk about why some Westerners know so much about massacres and concentration camps.

Because we've had some pretty evil dipshits in power over the course of history. That doesn't give the rest of the world freedom to massacre their own people.