The Future of China

[New Bradenia Ghost]

Well I (technically) mean a Republic, I don't know anymore

Both China's are capitalist states. Capitalism doesn't and has never meant democracy anywhere or at any point.

Well ok I can agree on that

[Bombadil]

Well I (technically) mean a Republic, I don't know anymore

Both China's are capitalist states. Capitalism doesn't and has never meant democracy anywhere or at any point.

Well.. under Xi Jinping China is somewhat on the road back to full socialism.

In the early 1970s Xi and many princelings were permitted to return to Beijing. But while many of his young contemporaries set about enjoying their newfound freedom, Xi chose a different path. "He chose to survive by becoming redder than red," the US embassy's source says.

In 1974, despite the fact that his father was still in prison, Xi joined the Communist Party, a decision which lost him the trust of fellow princelings, who felt betrayed by the move. Whereas his friends gorged themselves on Western literature, Xi read the works of Karl Marx and even joined a "workers', farmers' and soldiers' revolutionary committee."

He's rebuilding the power and influence of SOEs and ramping up the need for everyone to think the same, act the same and conduct themselves according to revolutionary socialist principles. He is upping censorship of anything not in line with correct thinking and has refocused on the reunification of all China.

He is also reintroducing demagoguery with Xi Jinping thought and related apps that help your social credit score if you answer correctly.

[Novus America]

Both China's are capitalist states. Capitalism doesn't and has never meant democracy anywhere or at any point.

Well.. under Xi Jinping China is somewhat on the road back to full socialism.

In the early 1970s Xi and many princelings were permitted to return to Beijing. But while many of his young contemporaries set about enjoying their newfound freedom, Xi chose a different path. "He chose to survive by becoming redder than red," the US embassy's source says.

In 1974, despite the fact that his father was still in prison, Xi joined the Communist Party, a decision which lost him the trust of fellow princelings, who felt betrayed by the move. Whereas his friends gorged themselves on Western literature, Xi read the works of Karl Marx and even joined a "workers', farmers' and soldiers' revolutionary committee."

He's rebuilding the power and influence of SOEs and ramping up the need for everyone to think the same, act the same and conduct themselves according to revolutionary socialist principles. He is upping censorship of anything not in line with correct thinking and has refocused on the reunification of all China.

He is also reintroducing demagoguery with Xi Jinping thought and related apps that help your social credit score if you answer correctly.

It is more state capitalism, because there is not even any real pretense of collective ownership or worker control.

[Heloin]

Both China's are capitalist states. Capitalism doesn't and has never meant democracy anywhere or at any point.

Well.. under Xi Jinping China is somewhat on the road back to full socialism.

In the early 1970s Xi and many princelings were permitted to return to Beijing. But while many of his young contemporaries set about enjoying their newfound freedom, Xi chose a different path. "He chose to survive by becoming redder than red," the US embassy's source says.

In 1974, despite the fact that his father was still in prison, Xi joined the Communist Party, a decision which lost him the trust of fellow princelings, who felt betrayed by the move. Whereas his friends gorged themselves on Western literature, Xi read the works of Karl Marx and even joined a "workers', farmers' and soldiers' revolutionary committee."

He's rebuilding the power and influence of SOEs and ramping up the need for everyone to think the same, act the same and conduct themselves according to revolutionary socialist principles. He is upping censorship of anything not in line with correct thinking and has refocused on the reunification of all China.

He is also reintroducing demagoguery with Xi Jinping thought and related apps that help your social credit score if you answer correctly.

Socialism with Chinese characteristics is authoritarian state capitalism with a coat of paint.

[Bombadil]

Well.. under Xi Jinping China is somewhat on the road back to full socialism.

In the early 1970s Xi and many princelings were permitted to return to Beijing. But while many of his young contemporaries set about enjoying their newfound freedom, Xi chose a different path. "He chose to survive by becoming redder than red," the US embassy's source says.

In 1974, despite the fact that his father was still in prison, Xi joined the Communist Party, a decision which lost him the trust of fellow princelings, who felt betrayed by the move. Whereas his friends gorged themselves on Western literature, Xi read the works of Karl Marx and even joined a "workers', farmers' and soldiers' revolutionary committee."

He's rebuilding the power and influence of SOEs and ramping up the need for everyone to think the same, act the same and conduct themselves according to revolutionary socialist principles. He is upping censorship of anything not in line with correct thinking and has refocused on the reunification of all China.

He is also reintroducing demagoguery with Xi Jinping thought and related apps that help your social credit score if you answer correctly.

It is more state capitalism, because there is not even any real pretense of collective ownership or worker control.

Well.. hmm.. by default the CCP is worker control, it is the revolutionary worker's party, and they do own SOEs - the idea of communism is that the state simply dissolves over time and the people are the party and the party are the people.

For now the party must instill correct thought so there is no disparity between communist principles and the people, and Xi Jinping is the dude who'll do it by hook or by crook.

[Infected Mushroom]

Well.. under Xi Jinping China is somewhat on the road back to full socialism.

In the early 1970s Xi and many princelings were permitted to return to Beijing. But while many of his young contemporaries set about enjoying their newfound freedom, Xi chose a different path. "He chose to survive by becoming redder than red," the US embassy's source says.

In 1974, despite the fact that his father was still in prison, Xi joined the Communist Party, a decision which lost him the trust of fellow princelings, who felt betrayed by the move. Whereas his friends gorged themselves on Western literature, Xi read the works of Karl Marx and even joined a "workers', farmers' and soldiers' revolutionary committee."

He's rebuilding the power and influence of SOEs and ramping up the need for everyone to think the same, act the same and conduct themselves according to revolutionary socialist principles. He is upping censorship of anything not in line with correct thinking and has refocused on the reunification of all China.

He is also reintroducing demagoguery with Xi Jinping thought and related apps that help your social credit score if you answer correctly.

Socialism with Chinese characteristics is authoritarian state capitalism with a coat of paint.

Not according to the Chinese constitution

[Heloin]

It is more state capitalism, because there is not even any real pretense of collective ownership or worker control.

Well.. hmm.. by default the CCP is worker control, it is the revolutionary worker's party, and they do own SOEs - the idea of communism is that the state simply dissolves over time and the people are the party and the party are the people.

For now the party must instill correct thought so there is no disparity between communist principles and the people, and Xi Jinping is the dude who'll do it by hook or by crook.

You can call China the Puppies and Kittens Fun State of Fun and it'd be just as accurate as describing the CCP as anything close to socialist or even wanting to embrace socialism. For all it's problems the CCP under Mao was under the illusion that killing millions of people would bring about a workers paradise, somehow. The current iteration is little more then a song and dance routine making some pretty propaganda.

[Bombadil]

Socialism with Chinese characteristics is authoritarian state capitalism with a coat of paint.

Not according to the Chinese constitution

According to the Chinese constitution there's universal suffrage so, yeah, so much for that.

[Heloin]

Socialism with Chinese characteristics is authoritarian state capitalism with a coat of paint.

Not according to the Chinese constitution

Because it's a bold faced lie.

[Bombadil]

Well.. hmm.. by default the CCP is worker control, it is the revolutionary worker's party, and they do own SOEs - the idea of communism is that the state simply dissolves over time and the people are the party and the party are the people.

For now the party must instill correct thought so there is no disparity between communist principles and the people, and Xi Jinping is the dude who'll do it by hook or by crook.

You can call China the Puppies and Kittens Fun State of Fun and it'd be just as accurate as describing the CCP as anything close to socialist or even wanting to embrace socialism. For all it's problems the CCP under Mao was under the illusion that killing millions of people would bring about a workers paradise, somehow. The current iteration is little more then a song and dance routine making some pretty propaganda.

Well of course all this must be done while shovelling as much cash out of China as possible. You never know when the shit will go down. China is a history of shifting between luan and ping. It should be utterly scandalous that a man of such deep convictions allows his sister to live in Canada indulging a life as a capitalist pig landlord and his brother in HK as a running dog hedge fund investor but we don't talk about that.

In fact booksellers selling a book about precisely that is what has landed HK in all this trouble in the first place.

[Subterrania]

You can call China the Puppies and Kittens Fun State of Fun and it'd be just as accurate as describing the CCP as anything close to socialist or even wanting to embrace socialism. For all it's problems the CCP under Mao was under the illusion that killing millions of people would bring about a workers paradise, somehow. The current iteration is little more then a song and dance routine making some pretty propaganda.

Well of course all this must be done while shovelling as much cash out of China as possible. You never know when the shit will go down. China is a history of shifting between luan and ping. It should be utterly scandalous that a man of such deep convictions allows his sister to live in Canada indulging a life as a capitalist pig landlord and his brother in HK as a running dog hedge fund investor but we don't talk about that.

In fact booksellers selling a book about precisely that is what has landed HK in all this trouble in the first place.

And a daughter who is a Harvard graduate. In her intelligence reports she stated delight in finding the Harvard administrators and activists to be as authoritarian and duplicitous as most CCP officials.

[Novus America]

It is more state capitalism, because there is not even any real pretense of collective ownership or worker control.

Well.. hmm.. by default the CCP is worker control, it is the revolutionary worker's party, and they do own SOEs - the idea of communism is that the state simply dissolves over time and the people are the party and the party are the people.

For now the party must instill correct thought so there is no disparity between communist principles and the people, and Xi Jinping is the dude who'll do it by hook or by crook.

I mean I just see it hard how they can make that remotely credible. The Party is all middle class professional and capitalists.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Well.. hmm.. by default the CCP is worker control, it is the revolutionary worker's party, and they do own SOEs - the idea of communism is that the state simply dissolves over time and the people are the party and the party are the people.

For now the party must instill correct thought so there is no disparity between communist principles and the people, and Xi Jinping is the dude who'll do it by hook or by crook.

I mean I just see it hard how they can make that remotely credible. The Party is all middle class professional and capitalists.

It's simple. Turn everyone into the middle class

[Infected Mushroom]

Well.. hmm.. by default the CCP is worker control, it is the revolutionary worker's party, and they do own SOEs - the idea of communism is that the state simply dissolves over time and the people are the party and the party are the people.

For now the party must instill correct thought so there is no disparity between communist principles and the people, and Xi Jinping is the dude who'll do it by hook or by crook.

I mean I just see it hard how they can make that remotely credible. The Party is all middle class professional and capitalists.

It all sounds very credible to me

[Vistulange]

I mean I just see it hard how they can make that remotely credible. The Party is all middle class professional and capitalists.

It all sounds very credible to me

To be honest, IM, if the Communist Party of China said that dinosaurs existed today, you would find that credible, as well.

[Kassaran]

Well, long story short, I'm hoping that something goes critical in China over this and we see the break up of the longest running country in Human history. China's outlived its cultural and societal usefulness. It kept millions from killing each other for millennia, but now the time has come for those various smaller regions to be balkanized. I'm an outspoken supporter of the idea of Pax Americana for of any imperialist power in the history of humanity, it has built up the most direct and effective means of enabling human development. Sure, some parts of it don't work as well as they could and corruption and cancer lingers about it, but those can all be pruned and allow the main plant to bud and flower beautifully. Hopefully the time comes in the next few centuries when the US isn't a nation anymore, but the founding member of a united government, but until then I want it to remain the hegemon.

[Kamchakta]

My take on China as a Chinese in Singapore

I see my people in the West do not understand China (I am not using this to deny some important facts on how the CCP has run the country or to justify but simply to state it is not a shock to see the events in China occur based on historical reference)

What are China's goals?

1) Stability

A bit of a backdrop. The CCP is like another dynasty and wants to ensure stability. Some might ask, why is it when China was liberalising under Deng Xiaopeng did 1989 happen? Well, the answer is simple, China knew a simple Glasnost policy like the Soviet Union would not work as it will only reveal the corruption within the party and the people instead of supporting the CCCP in the USSR went full nationalist and against it. Deng Xiaopeng knew at that time along with many leaders in China (moderates included) that China was not ready for liberalisation to that extent or they will end up like the Soviet Union. (This is why Deng also invaded Vietnam, he wanted the military to perform badly to have less leverage and legitimacy against him)

Now, another period of liberalisation was in post-SARS and 2008. If you recall, after SARS, China's media started opening up and this was seen in the free reporting of the unfolding events in the Sichuan Earthquake which killed 200,000 people due to poor building standards in 2008. For the first time, China opened reporting to foreign media too under Hu Jintao. China at this time was confident it could liberalise and free the media without losing stability due to confidence in the government from economic prosperity. That all changed in 2011. In 2011, China saw what happened in Libya and the Arab Spring. The close tied Gadaffi, a anti-colonial revolutionary (who did commit atrocities but the West seems to forget that for stability some atrocities are needed, the USA would be a lot more stable had the natives been completely wiped out if you think about it) was toppled despite being a popular leader and starting to gain closer ties with the West.

China saw the 2011 Arab Spring as a warning for authoritarian nations on the path to open media and "Glasnost". That was, even if the government is popular and you are close to the west, you can be backstabbed and everything can fall apart. It was with this setting that the CCP [Yes they elect within the party leaders whom they think are most suited - even Hu Jintao (who liberalised the nation voted Xi)] elected Xi Jinping as the next Chairman and President in 2013. He was to set a path of abandoning the 冷静观察、稳住阵脚、沉着应付、韬光养晦、善于藏拙、决不当头、有所作为 policy of Deng which means to observe the changes in the international situation calmly and stabilize the domestic economic construction and political situation. Dealing calmly with international diplomatic affairs. Hiding strength and never taking the place of the Soviet Union. Xi Jinping and the next-gen CCP leaders believed (with reasons) that the west cannot be trusted and only through strength will China be respected (This is flawed reasoning and I will explain later). Hence, you see under Xi a massive reversal in freedoms, yet with the power of technology, perhaps it is feasible.

2) Influence

In line with the abandonment of the policy of laying low, China aspires something else. Their historical position as the globally respected power. Maybe not through tributaries but close allies much like the USA has today. However, China has taken a path I believe is wrong which is the CCP believes that strength and might is right as the USA shows. However, they forget that along with strength, the USA also builds trust (especially post WW2 although Trump is throwing that away now, but I believe the next election will stop that trend - benefits of democracy, the smooth transition of power). That is why China has adopted such aggressive policies in their neighbourhood as they believe through intimidation they can secure allies (they also invest but usually that is with regards to 3rd world or 2nd world nations.) I feel bad for China in this aspect because if you know history, China's relations with Joseon (Korea) and Ayutthaya (Thailand) was also reciprocal in nature - they always helped one another, not based on complete fear.

3) Homogenity

In line with the first point on Stability, China wants to be a homogenous nation. A curious fact, Mongolia offered to join China (PRC) in the 70s but the PRC said no. Why? They want to secure their nations first. China has always been envious of Korea and Japan for being such homogenous nations (not always but since the 1900s with the rise of nationalism). That is why we have these Uyghur camps etc. In all honesty, the treatment of the people in Xinjiang is not like Hitler's treatment of the Jews but neither am I saying it is good in any way. China is not against you being Muslim as long as you assimilate and become a Chinese (as seen in the Hui Muslims). The problem is that in Xinjiang the mosque very much looks like those in Afghanistan and the middle east which is a symbol of separatism. China has always practised this idea of incorporating races into the Han race. That is why the people in the historical region of Nanyue (close to Vietnamese) are considered Han.

4) Socialism/Communism that works

This point may seem confusing at first. However, the backdrop of this is that China's rapid development through government-owned/ helped corporations has created a lot of income inequality which is one thing that really reduces internal stability and increases the population's discontent. China developed like South Korea and Japan through Chaebols and Zaibatsu's respectively with large firms (usually heavily government-sponsored) grew the economy. The wealth in the cities is high compared to that in the interior and rural areas and the GINI coefficient of China is one of the highest in the world (embarrassing for a "Communist" state) China sees the weaknesses in the USA and one of them is the inequality (especially since Reaganomics/ Thatchernomics) and does not want to repeat the mistakes of the USA. It is entirely logical to say that any advanced society of the future with no shortages would see communism as an ideal since it gives everyone a level start point for which they have the same opportunity (Hence the idea of meritocracy/Confucian values and "Chinese characteristics"). That is why Xi Jinping has been so controlling and also has been reigning in corruption severely. One historical issue of China has always been Corruption and the CCP does not want to repeat the mistakes of old collapsed dynasties.

Problem

Now here is the issue about China's future. I do not disagree that the CCP will eventually collapse but by that time the world will end tragically. You see too many Chinese people, when the West says, "We are against the CCP not the Chinese people" they laugh. Why? The same people who say that will in wanting to destroy the CCP, want Manchuria, East Turkestan and Tibet to be independent and shrink China like the Soviet Union. Let's be honest, even if the ROC was in charge, the USA would want to do the same to any rival superpower. That does not deny China's human rights abuses. (although you can argue the USA has quite a few on their belt because the western media dominates the world nobody sees that - eg. people think Douyin is the Chinese version of Tik Tok when it is the opposite.) Chinese people have no choice to support the CCP because it is the only legitimate authority controlling one of the two only civilisation states in the world - meaning most Chinese (almost all) stay in this country unless they want their lives to get a lot worse.

Sadly, no matter how logical China's side of the argument is, I believe the West will triumph unless there is an internal shock that knows no bounds. This COVID-19 and China's aggressive behaviour overseas only gives the radicals in the USA the casus belli they always wanted to start a new cold war with China in which they have a current advantage. There are many in the USA who believe China is a threat and want reasons to say so but up till Xi Jinping they had none. That is where I see China has gone wrong. if China followed Deng in staying low, the West would have no dirt against China and more countries would turn to China in a gradual fashion of trust-building. China cannot reverse the clock now and I see a new Cold War coming. Unfortunately, it is one neither side can win. If you ask US allies to decide who to turn to, eg South Korea, Japan and Thailand, it will be difficult.

Lastly on the idea of violent revolution. The reason why I think things are not good is that the CCP is a dynasty of multiple rulers. Only democracy has the ability to ensure a smooth transition of power (even then in Africa it is not always guaranteed). Think about Weimer Germany post WW1. Before that, the Germans only knew of a strongman in charge (the Kaiser) and they never had the concept of democracy and hence when it was very inefficient, many Germans turned to radical authoritarian leaderships as they did not see value in Democracy. Remember, this was only when Germany was 50 years old. Now imagine China, thousands of years of rooted imperial rule and institutions carried forth ironically by the CCP, seeing the inefficacies of the cross-strait counterpart which btw developed fast under authoritarian Chiang kai Shek but slowed down as a democracy in the 90s. Do you think the Chinese will accept democracy that quickly if the Germans did not? Yup.

There are many another points I want to share but I will wait for some new comments and insights to reply to. Thank you.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

It all sounds very credible to me

To be honest, IM, if the Communist Party of China said that dinosaurs existed today, you would find that credible, as well.

You 're right. Academically, birds are now classified as dinosaurs. It is generally acknowledged by the scientific community. And as you said, China's fossils and research work play a key role.They are distant relatives of Tyrannosaurus Rex

Theropoda->Ornithurae->Neornithes(bird)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur

[Vistulange]

To be honest, IM, if the Communist Party of China said that dinosaurs existed today, you would find that credible, as well.

You 're right. Academically, birds are now classified as dinosaurs. It is generally acknowledged by the scientific community. And as you said, China's fossils and research work play a key role.They are distant relatives of Tyrannosaurus Rex

Theropoda->Ornithurae->Neornithes(bird)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur

Way to miss the point, Shanghai.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

To be honest, IM, if the Communist Party of China said that dinosaurs existed today, you would find that credible, as well.

You 're right. Academically, birds are now classified as dinosaurs. It is generally acknowledged by the scientific community. And as you said, China's fossils and research work play a key role.They are distant relatives of Tyrannosaurus Rex

Theropoda->Ornithurae->Neornithes(bird)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur

Yeah, they are distant relatives of the dinosaurs. They've evolved pretty far enough to be considered more separate in both classification and physical aspects.

[Kamchakta]

I'd be happy if someone gave his opinions on my analysis. I spent time on it and I also see this debate as one of intellect and not pure rhetoric.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

Socialism with Chinese characteristics is authoritarian state capitalism with a coat of paint.

Not according to the Chinese constitution

They're just words on a piece of paper at this point, IM, because no one actually upholds it.

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

China in its current state is a dystopian dictatorship that gets its legitimacy from its economy.
I am ashamed and embarrassed that the outside world helped it grow to this point, knowing full well what kind of government they were.
China has been normalized. (You would not believe some of the propaganda I’ve seen on YouTube.)
But it is neither normal nor a free state.

It’s also saddening to think about all the damage Chinese culture will face from Their government and racism because of “their” government.

I think it would be best if the world were to treat China in the same light as North Korea (whom they support by the way).
And force them to change, or crumble and then change.

At current, China is using its soft power to try to take over the world.
It must be stopped.

I could go on, but I’ll leave it at,
China government = bad.
(And for the good of all humanity must be fixed).

[Risottia]

It is more state capitalism, because there is not even any real pretense of collective ownership or worker control.

It's not even state capitalism. The vast majority of the means of mass production are privately owned and produce profit for the private owners.
It's an authoritarian oligarchical republic with a mixed corporatist/capitalist economy.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

You 're right. Academically, birds are now classified as dinosaurs. It is generally acknowledged by the scientific community. And as you said, China's fossils and research work play a key role.They are distant relatives of Tyrannosaurus Rex

Theropoda->Ornithurae->Neornithes(bird)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur

Yeah, they are distant relatives of the dinosaurs. They've evolved pretty far enough to be considered more separate in both classification and physical aspects.

If you pay more attention to paleontology, you will find that today's academic journals call birds dinosaurs.They are not independent.Body structure and Cretaceous dinosaurs are similar to dinosaurs because they also came from the Cretaceous.Birds are not an independent class now.As I just said, they are Theropoda dinosaurs .They were distant relatives of Tyrannosaurus, not Dinosaurs.You can't rob my cute dinosaur.