The Future of China

[Novus America]

An apologist driven by ideology will always warp reality and morals to suit the end of perpetuating the ideals. Unfortunately, that is exactly how the PRC operates. Whether the leaders of the CCP know they're full of shit or actually believe what they drill into the heads of the masses, the bottom line is anyone who really wants to believe they are the good guys will do whatever it takes, make whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to make it appear that way.

That's actually a perfect description of the US.

Actually besides whataboutism (by which you effectively acknowledged guilt) few if any defenders of the US against the PRC have any illusions that the US is all good, and most are very critical of the US government and its policies.

Rather we realize the PRC is a greater threat to ourselves and others.

Because we can criticize the US government and push for change. The US tolerates dissent.
The PRC does not. And we are dissenters.

[Rusozak]

An apologist driven by ideology will always warp reality and morals to suit the end of perpetuating the ideals. Unfortunately, that is exactly how the PRC operates. Whether the leaders of the CCP know they're full of shit or actually believe what they drill into the heads of the masses, the bottom line is anyone who really wants to believe they are the good guys will do whatever it takes, make whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to make it appear that way.

That's actually a perfect description of the US.

And you are delusional if you don't see the same thing happening here with the PRC and its apologists.

[Dahyan]

That's actually a perfect description of the US.

Actually besides whataboutism (by which you effectively acknowledged guilt) few if any defenders of the US against the PRC have any illusions that the US is all good, and most are very critical of the US government and its policies.

Rather we realize the PRC is a greater threat to ourselves and others.

Because we can criticize the US government and push for change. The US tolerates dissent.
The PRC does not. And we are dissenters.

Claiming that China is a "greater threat" than the US is quite simply ridiculous. For starters, a simple look at the amount of countries either of the two have invaded over the past decades, already shows quite clearly who is the greater threat.

[-Ocelot-]

Actually besides whataboutism (by which you effectively acknowledged guilt) few if any defenders of the US against the PRC have any illusions that the US is all good, and most are very critical of the US government and its policies.

Rather we realize the PRC is a greater threat to ourselves and others.

Because we can criticize the US government and push for change. The US tolerates dissent.
The PRC does not. And we are dissenters.

Claiming that China is a "greater threat" than the US is quite simply ridiculous. For starters, a simple look at the amount of countries either of the two have invaded over the past decades, already shows quite clearly who is the greater threat.

Judging from China's imperialist tendencies and their influence across the world, I'd say the US isn't doing enough invading. I wish there was some sort of way we (as the free world) could invade and forcefully kick the Chinese Communist Party out of the country before they end up buying/owning every single organization and country east of the Atlantic.

[Hurdergaryp]

Claiming that China is a "greater threat" than the US is quite simply ridiculous. For starters, a simple look at the amount of countries either of the two have invaded over the past decades, already shows quite clearly who is the greater threat.

Judging from China's imperialist tendencies and their influence across the world, I'd say the US isn't doing enough invading. I wish there was some sort of way we (as the free world) could invade and forcefully kick the Chinese Communist Party out of the country before they end up buying/owning every single organization and country east of the Atlantic.

Oh, so now ownership and spending money is a bad thing? Whatever gets your Kriegsbereitheit all hot and throbbing, I guess.

[Novus America]

Actually besides whataboutism (by which you effectively acknowledged guilt) few if any defenders of the US against the PRC have any illusions that the US is all good, and most are very critical of the US government and its policies.

Rather we realize the PRC is a greater threat to ourselves and others.

Because we can criticize the US government and push for change. The US tolerates dissent.
The PRC does not. And we are dissenters.

Claiming that China is a "greater threat" than the US is quite simply ridiculous. For starters, a simple look at the amount of countries either of the two have invaded over the past decades, already shows quite clearly who is the greater threat.

Well it is somewhat relative, a greater threat to me is not necessarily a greater threat to you.
Although the PRC has invaded and actually annexed places, (when was the last time the US annexed a place) and the US actually gave up territory in Panama and the Philippines yes the US is less the imperialist right now.

And the US is definitely less a threat to my political and civil liberties. Outright invasion is not the only threat obviously.

So yes while I can not deny the US does bad things and our government is very flawed I still would be insane for me to back the PRC.

[Novus America]

Claiming that China is a "greater threat" than the US is quite simply ridiculous. For starters, a simple look at the amount of countries either of the two have invaded over the past decades, already shows quite clearly who is the greater threat.

Judging from China's imperialist tendencies and their influence across the world, I'd say the US isn't doing enough invading. I wish there was some sort of way we (as the free world) could invade and forcefully kick the Chinese Communist Party out of the country before they end up buying/owning every single organization and country east of the Atlantic.

But there is no way. So regardless of if we should or not do it if we could, we cannot.
There are other ways to contain and stop them from taking everything over.

[-Ocelot-]

Judging from China's imperialist tendencies and their influence across the world, I'd say the US isn't doing enough invading. I wish there was some sort of way we (as the free world) could invade and forcefully kick the Chinese Communist Party out of the country before they end up buying/owning every single organization and country east of the Atlantic.

Oh, so now ownership and spending money is a bad thing? Whatever gets your Kriegsbereitheit all hot and throbbing, I guess.

???

[Stellar Colonies]

It would be best for China to kick out the CCP of their own volition than for us to try imperialistically invade and remove it ourselves.

Us invading them would just solidify their distrust of the outside world.

[Dahyan]

Claiming that China is a "greater threat" than the US is quite simply ridiculous. For starters, a simple look at the amount of countries either of the two have invaded over the past decades, already shows quite clearly who is the greater threat.

Judging from China's imperialist tendencies and their influence across the world, I'd say the US isn't doing enough invading. I wish there was some sort of way we (as the free world) could invade and forcefully kick the Chinese Communist Party out of the country before they end up buying/owning every single organization and country east of the Atlantic.

... Yeah okay. Thanks for that unsettling look into your psyche.

[Dahyan]

Claiming that China is a "greater threat" than the US is quite simply ridiculous. For starters, a simple look at the amount of countries either of the two have invaded over the past decades, already shows quite clearly who is the greater threat.

Well it is somewhat relative, a greater threat to me is not necessarily a greater threat to you.
Although the PRC has invaded and actually annexed places, (when was the last time the US annexed a place) and the US actually gave up territory in Panama and the Philippines yes the US is less the imperialist right now.

And the US is definitely less a threat to my political and civil liberties. Outright invasion is not the only threat obviously.

So yes while I can not deny the US does bad things and our government is very flawed I still would be insane for me to back the PRC.

Which land that is not historically Chinese has the PRC actually invaded? I'm genuinely curious whether I missed something.

Also, giving up territory you invaded in the first place, doesn't exactly make you a good guy. At most, it makes you atone for some of your previous crimes.

[Dahyan]

Judging from China's imperialist tendencies and their influence across the world, I'd say the US isn't doing enough invading. I wish there was some sort of way we (as the free world) could invade and forcefully kick the Chinese Communist Party out of the country before they end up buying/owning every single organization and country east of the Atlantic.

But there is no way. So regardless of if we should or not do it if we could, we cannot.
There are other ways to contain and stop them from taking everything over.

See, the key difference between us in that regard is your insistence that the PRC wants to "take everything over" in the first place.

I see no evidence of that. At the very most, the PRC is acting like an ordinary major country in today's world, be it with a bigger economy than most.

This "the Chinese are going to take over the world" thing that media in Western societies like to spew, sounds an awful lot like self-projection to me.

Very similar to the right-wing idea that immigrants are inherently violent colonizers, based on the fact that that is what white settlers did when they migrated to other continents.

Thing is, history is more than just repetition of what was before. Fundamental concepts, societies and ideologies change, and contemporary Chinese development shouldn't be seen as a necessary rehash of what Europe did two hundred years ago.

[Novus America]

It would be best for China to kick out the CCP of their own volition than for us to try imperialistically invade and remove it ourselves.

Us invading them would just solidify their distrust of the outside world.

I agree. And honestly how exactly with 500,000 army and 200,000ish Marines would we even be able to invade and fully occupy a country of 1.4 billion?

Rather I propose the following.

1) The CCP and DAB(CCP’s Hong Kong branch) are declared criminal organizations. All their members are banned from travel to the West and all assets of the organization and or members in the West are frozen.

2) All PRC government and SOE assets in the West are frozen too. The could not own or operate property here or employ anyone here other than maybe an embassy and single consulate. Personnel working there would prohibited from traveling outside a certain area. Say for example in the US no travel outside NYC and the DC beltway.

3) All tariffs on the PRC would increase 1% every month, indefinitely. We also create programs to rebuild key strategic industries in the West.

4) Stricter technology transfer controls applied.

5) Recognize the ROC, recreate the Taiwan Defense Command and Sino-American Mutual Defense Treaty.

6) Modernize and expand Taiwanese, US, Australian, Japanese etc military forces in the Pacific.

This six point plan can fix the problem without resorting to invasion.

[Novus America]

Well it is somewhat relative, a greater threat to me is not necessarily a greater threat to you.
Although the PRC has invaded and actually annexed places, (when was the last time the US annexed a place) and the US actually gave up territory in Panama and the Philippines yes the US is less the imperialist right now.

And the US is definitely less a threat to my political and civil liberties. Outright invasion is not the only threat obviously.

So yes while I can not deny the US does bad things and our government is very flawed I still would be insane for me to back the PRC.

Which land that is not historically Chinese has the PRC actually invaded? I'm genuinely curious whether I missed something.

Also, giving up territory you invaded in the first place, doesn't exactly make you a good guy. At most, it makes you atone for some of your previous crimes.

The Islands of the South China Sea, parts of India, and Vietnam. Also the “we once owned it!/historically it was mine so I can take it back by force” thing is a horrible idea anyways for obvious reasons.

Sure I never said we are the good guy, that still makes us the less bad guy. We atoned for some of it, they never did.

[Novus America]

But there is no way. So regardless of if we should or not do it if we could, we cannot.
There are other ways to contain and stop them from taking everything over.

See, the key difference between us in that regard is your insistence that the PRC wants to "take everything over" in the first place.

I see no evidence of that. At the very most, the PRC is acting like an ordinary major country in today's world, be it with a bigger economy than most.

This "the Chinese are going to take over the world" thing that media in Western societies like to spew, sounds an awful lot like self-projection to me.

Very similar to the right-wing idea that immigrants are inherently violent colonizers, based on the fact that that is what white settlers did when they migrated to other continents.

Thing is, history is more than just repetition of what was before. Fundamental concepts, societies and ideologies change, and contemporary Chinese development shouldn't be seen as a necessary rehash of what Europe did two hundred years ago.

Only because you refuse to look, or deny what is in front of your eyes:
“Commenting on the colour revolutions of the 2000s, Jiang stated, "The crucial questions in politics are not questions of right and wrong, but of obedience and disobedience. If you do not submit to political authority, then 'If I say you're wrong, you're wrong, even if you're right.'"[12] Echoing Schmitt's theory of the friend–enemy distinction, he added, "Between friends and enemies, there is no question of freedom, only violence and subjugation. This is the reality of politics, a reality that liberals often do not dare to face."[12]”
“Jiang concludes that it is China's responsibility, alongside other nations, to construct a blueprint for the second world empire: the reconstruction of Chinese civilisation and the world order are mutually reinforcing.[18]“
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Shigong

Also they are not content to merely censor opinions at home, they are censoring opinions here in the West ALREADY!

Their goal is very much to dominate the world, not simply be a great power.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

It would be best for China to kick out the CCP of their own volition than for us to try imperialistically invade and remove it ourselves.

Us invading them would just solidify their distrust of the outside world.

I agree. And honestly how exactly with 500,000 army and 200,000ish Marines would we even be able to invade and fully occupy a country of 1.4 billion?

Rather I propose the following.

1) The CCP and DAB(CCP’s Hong Kong branch) are declared criminal organizations. All their members are banned from travel to the West and all assets of the organization and or members in the West are frozen.

2) All PRC government and SOE assets in the West are frozen too. The could not own or operate property here or employ anyone here other than maybe an embassy and single consulate. Personnel working there would prohibited from traveling outside a certain area. Say for example in the US no travel outside NYC and the DC beltway.

3) All tariffs on the PRC would increase 1% every month, indefinitely. We also create programs to rebuild key strategic industries in the West.

4) Stricter technology transfer controls applied.

5) Recognize the ROC, recreate the Taiwan Defense Command and Sino-American Mutual Defense Treaty.

6) Modernize and expand Taiwanese, US, Australian, Japanese etc military forces in the Pacific.

This six point plan can fix the problem without resorting to invasion.

Yep,and you'd better do that when China's economy is only half the size.Otherwise, the capitalists would have to arrange a mentally ill gunman on Trump's itinerary.

[Infected Mushroom]

But there is no way. So regardless of if we should or not do it if we could, we cannot.
There are other ways to contain and stop them from taking everything over.

See, the key difference between us in that regard is your insistence that the PRC wants to "take everything over" in the first place.

I see no evidence of that. At the very most, the PRC is acting like an ordinary major country in today's world, be it with a bigger economy than most.

This "the Chinese are going to take over the world" thing that media in Western societies like to spew, sounds an awful lot like self-projection to me.

Very similar to the right-wing idea that immigrants are inherently violent colonizers, based on the fact that that is what white settlers did when they migrated to other continents.

Thing is, history is more than just repetition of what was before. Fundamental concepts, societies and ideologies change, and contemporary Chinese development shouldn't be seen as a necessary rehash of what Europe did two hundred years ago.

Well said... well said...

At the end of the day, China’s only seeking to secure its legitimate border disputes and claims. China is about trade and peace.

Unlike western powers, it does not invade other governments and topple Middle Eastern governments. Every time America does so, China has tried to act as mediator and peacemaker.

[Bombadil]

See, the key difference between us in that regard is your insistence that the PRC wants to "take everything over" in the first place.

I see no evidence of that. At the very most, the PRC is acting like an ordinary major country in today's world, be it with a bigger economy than most.

This "the Chinese are going to take over the world" thing that media in Western societies like to spew, sounds an awful lot like self-projection to me.

Very similar to the right-wing idea that immigrants are inherently violent colonizers, based on the fact that that is what white settlers did when they migrated to other continents.

Thing is, history is more than just repetition of what was before. Fundamental concepts, societies and ideologies change, and contemporary Chinese development shouldn't be seen as a necessary rehash of what Europe did two hundred years ago.

Well said... well said...

At the end of the day, China’s only seeking to secure its legitimate border disputes and claims. China is about trade and peace.

Unlike western powers, it does not invade other governments and topple Middle Eastern governments. Every time America does so, China has tried to act as mediator and peacemaker.

Thing is China has very limited ability to project power, where can they go, they have the Himalayas in the West, and an ocean to the East.. everywhere they can have war they have. Beyond that, near every country around them views them unfavourably due to their recent heavy-handed and bullying approach.

Honestly, if China simply changed the tone of their stupid formal government language it would help, calling Australia, for example, 'gum under China's shoe' merely for asking for an independent investigation of Covid-19 is, frankly, ridiculous.

So it's not as though China has really had the opportunity yet although..

Xi Jinping, said China’s military must increase its preparations for armed confrontations.

“It is necessary to step up preparations for armed combat, to flexibly carry out actual combat military training, and to improve our military’s ability to perform military missions,” he told military officers on the sidelines of the country’s annual “Two Sessions” political gathering.

The comments, which did not reference Hong Kong directly, came just a day after the commander of the People’s Liberation Army garrison stationed in Hong Kong said his troops – estimated to number around 10,000 – stood ready to “safeguard” Chinese sovereignty in the city and support national security laws.

It's coming, and Taiwan is first on the radar.

[Infected Mushroom]

Well said... well said...

At the end of the day, China’s only seeking to secure its legitimate border disputes and claims. China is about trade and peace.

Unlike western powers, it does not invade other governments and topple Middle Eastern governments. Every time America does so, China has tried to act as mediator and peacemaker.

Thing is China has very limited ability to project power, where can they go, they have the Himalayas in the West, and an ocean to the East.. everywhere they can have war they have. Beyond that, near every country around them views them unfavourably due to their recent heavy-handed and bullying approach.

Honestly, if China simply changed the tone of their stupid formal government language it would help, calling Australia, for example, 'gum under China's shoe' merely for asking for an independent investigation of Covid-19 is, frankly, ridiculous.

So it's not as though China has really had the opportunity yet although..

Xi Jinping, said China’s military must increase its preparations for armed confrontations.

“It is necessary to step up preparations for armed combat, to flexibly carry out actual combat military training, and to improve our military’s ability to perform military missions,” he told military officers on the sidelines of the country’s annual “Two Sessions” political gathering.

The comments, which did not reference Hong Kong directly, came just a day after the commander of the People’s Liberation Army garrison stationed in Hong Kong said his troops – estimated to number around 10,000 – stood ready to “safeguard” Chinese sovereignty in the city and support national security laws.

It's coming, and Taiwan is first on the radar.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Since Hong Kong and Taiwan are both Chinese territories.

It sounds like you’re comparing efforts to defend Chinese sovereignty with actual intercontinental imperialism

You’ve been misled

[Tuthina]

Thing is China has very limited ability to project power, where can they go, they have the Himalayas in the West, and an ocean to the East.. everywhere they can have war they have. Beyond that, near every country around them views them unfavourably due to their recent heavy-handed and bullying approach.

Honestly, if China simply changed the tone of their stupid formal government language it would help, calling Australia, for example, 'gum under China's shoe' merely for asking for an independent investigation of Covid-19 is, frankly, ridiculous.

So it's not as though China has really had the opportunity yet although..

Xi Jinping, said China’s military must increase its preparations for armed confrontations.

“It is necessary to step up preparations for armed combat, to flexibly carry out actual combat military training, and to improve our military’s ability to perform military missions,” he told military officers on the sidelines of the country’s annual “Two Sessions” political gathering.

The comments, which did not reference Hong Kong directly, came just a day after the commander of the People’s Liberation Army garrison stationed in Hong Kong said his troops – estimated to number around 10,000 – stood ready to “safeguard” Chinese sovereignty in the city and support national security laws.

It's coming, and Taiwan is first on the radar.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Since Hong Kong and Taiwan are both Chinese territories.

It sounds like you’re comparing efforts to defend Chinese sovereignty with actual intercontinental imperialism

You’ve been misled

The government that's actually ruling Taiwan seems to disagree, same for the population living there.

But yes, I disagree with PRC's idea of sovereignty, and if imperialism proved to be the best way available to counter it, then I consider it a necessary evil.

[Bombadil]

Thing is China has very limited ability to project power, where can they go, they have the Himalayas in the West, and an ocean to the East.. everywhere they can have war they have. Beyond that, near every country around them views them unfavourably due to their recent heavy-handed and bullying approach.

Honestly, if China simply changed the tone of their stupid formal government language it would help, calling Australia, for example, 'gum under China's shoe' merely for asking for an independent investigation of Covid-19 is, frankly, ridiculous.

So it's not as though China has really had the opportunity yet although..

Xi Jinping, said China’s military must increase its preparations for armed confrontations.

“It is necessary to step up preparations for armed combat, to flexibly carry out actual combat military training, and to improve our military’s ability to perform military missions,” he told military officers on the sidelines of the country’s annual “Two Sessions” political gathering.

The comments, which did not reference Hong Kong directly, came just a day after the commander of the People’s Liberation Army garrison stationed in Hong Kong said his troops – estimated to number around 10,000 – stood ready to “safeguard” Chinese sovereignty in the city and support national security laws.

It's coming, and Taiwan is first on the radar.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Since Hong Kong and Taiwan are both Chinese territories.

It sounds like you’re comparing efforts to defend Chinese sovereignty with actual intercontinental imperialism

You’ve been misled

I think you have an extremely limited view of history, China has been involved in wars with India, Korea and Vietnam in the course of its time, including a failed invasion of Vietnam in '79 - swear to god, is there any more resistant people than the Vietnamese, they've taken out 3 major powers in the past 70 years.. - the fact that their military has been historically weak and based mostly on pure cannon fodder approach doesn't mean once they have the means to project power their tolerance for any dissent to their power will be dealt with.

There are other means of projecting power of course, economically, and China has certainly shown itself willing if it can.

Sri Lanka has formally handed over its southern port of Hambantota to China on a 99-year lease, which government critics have denounced as an erosion of the country’s sovereignty.

The $1.3bn port was opened seven years ago using debt from Chinese state-controlled entities. But it has since struggled under heavy losses, making it impossible for Colombo to repay its debts.

In 2016, Sri Lankan ministers struck a deal to sell an 80 per cent stake in the port to the state-controlled China Merchants Port Holdings.

But that agreement sparked protests from unions and opposition groups, forcing the government to renegotiate it. Under the new plan, signed in July, the Chinese company will hold a 70 per cent stake in a joint venture with the state-run Sri Lanka Ports Authority.

I mean, 99 years.. seriously, they can't even innovate in colonialism.. don't think they have much of a leg to stand on in complaining about the UK anymore.

[Novus America]

Thing is China has very limited ability to project power, where can they go, they have the Himalayas in the West, and an ocean to the East.. everywhere they can have war they have. Beyond that, near every country around them views them unfavourably due to their recent heavy-handed and bullying approach.

Honestly, if China simply changed the tone of their stupid formal government language it would help, calling Australia, for example, 'gum under China's shoe' merely for asking for an independent investigation of Covid-19 is, frankly, ridiculous.

So it's not as though China has really had the opportunity yet although..

Xi Jinping, said China’s military must increase its preparations for armed confrontations.

“It is necessary to step up preparations for armed combat, to flexibly carry out actual combat military training, and to improve our military’s ability to perform military missions,” he told military officers on the sidelines of the country’s annual “Two Sessions” political gathering.

The comments, which did not reference Hong Kong directly, came just a day after the commander of the People’s Liberation Army garrison stationed in Hong Kong said his troops – estimated to number around 10,000 – stood ready to “safeguard” Chinese sovereignty in the city and support national security laws.

It's coming, and Taiwan is first on the radar.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Since Hong Kong and Taiwan are both Chinese territories.

It sounds like you’re comparing efforts to defend Chinese sovereignty with actual intercontinental imperialism

You’ve been misled

Dude, even the PRC Nationalist here admits the PRC is NOT all about trade or peace.
He openly acknowledges neoliberalism is bullshit.

Also bombing a place you claim to own is not peaceful. But really I am not sure if you are arguing in good faith or not, I do not think we can make progress as even if we offer arguments or evidence you just will repeat the same tired arguments ad nauseam.

[Bombadil]

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Since Hong Kong and Taiwan are both Chinese territories.

It sounds like you’re comparing efforts to defend Chinese sovereignty with actual intercontinental imperialism

You’ve been misled

Dude, even the PRC Nationalist here admits the PRC is NOT all about trade or peace.
He openly acknowledges neoliberalism is bullshit.

Also bombing a place you claim to own is not peaceful. But really I am not sure if you are arguing in good faith or not, I do not think we can make progress as even if we offer arguments or evidence you just will repeat the same tired arguments ad nauseam.

Don't view it as debating with IM, there's no point there, rather use his blundering, fallacious and dogmatic faith as leaping points to provide greater context and merely state facts.

[Infected Mushroom]

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Since Hong Kong and Taiwan are both Chinese territories.

It sounds like you’re comparing efforts to defend Chinese sovereignty with actual intercontinental imperialism

You’ve been misled

Dude, even the PRC Nationalist here admits the PRC is NOT all about trade or peace.
He openly acknowledges neoliberalism is bullshit.

Also bombing a place you claim to own is not peaceful. But really I am not sure if you are arguing in good faith or not, I do not think we can make progress as even if we offer arguments or evidence you just will repeat the same tired arguments ad nauseam.

China is currently pursuing a long term strategy of economic integration with Taiwan

Do not confuse the tactics of European empires (invasion by sea) with the Chinese way

[Tuthina]

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Since Hong Kong and Taiwan are both Chinese territories.

It sounds like you’re comparing efforts to defend Chinese sovereignty with actual intercontinental imperialism

You’ve been misled

Dude, even the PRC Nationalist here admits the PRC is NOT all about trade or peace.
He openly acknowledges neoliberalism is bullshit.

Also bombing a place you claim to own is not peaceful. But really I am not sure if you are arguing in good faith or not, I do not think we can make progress as even if we offer arguments or evidence you just will repeat the same tired arguments ad nauseam.

Well, the "debate" with IM in the Hong Kong thread doesn't seem to change, like, anything in the past 500 pages. The only things we really got from IM are that they care more about access to video game and Starbucks than things like human rights. More accurately, IM's posts are more concerned about whether it would endanger them in the eyes of the government. Questions that they can't answer through extreme mental gymnastics also tend to be ignored.