The Future of China

[Shanghai industrial complex]

I'm not saying all journalists are always right, and once in a while we do see some rather questionable actions by some of them, but I don't think they're significant enough compared with the numbers of journalists who have a better hold on their professionalism. I should also note that despite the common rumour among pro-government groups that it's easy to buy a fake press card, so far the Hong Kong Journalists Association has only received one case of someone using a fake press card since June last year. I'm not saying that fake press cards don't exist - you can pretty much buy most fake certificates and cards on Taobao nowadays - but I don't think there is a strong case supporting the notion that there are many protesters using fake press cards to ambush police.

I'm talking about real news cards. It's easy.Who would buy a fake?Journalists from western media such as the BBC are in a great position.If reporters fall into that position because they have no time to evacuate, it only means that local journalists are incompetent and unprofessional.

[Tuthina]

I'm not saying all journalists are always right, and once in a while we do see some rather questionable actions by some of them, but I don't think they're significant enough compared with the numbers of journalists who have a better hold on their professionalism. I should also note that despite the common rumour among pro-government groups that it's easy to buy a fake press card, so far the Hong Kong Journalists Association has only received one case of someone using a fake press card since June last year. I'm not saying that fake press cards don't exist - you can pretty much buy most fake certificates and cards on Taobao nowadays - but I don't think there is a strong case supporting the notion that there are many protesters using fake press cards to ambush police.

I'm talking about real news cards. It's easy.Who would buy a fake?Journalists from western media such as the BBC are in a great position.If reporters fall into that position because they have no time to evacuate, it only means that local journalists are incompetent and unprofessional.

1) Did you even read the rest of my post?
2) Getting an actual press card from HKJA takes quite a bit more than just paying $20 like you're buying a drink, just saying. If you have evidence that someone is abusing its existing system to obtain press card, I'm sure the folks in HKJA would like to take it for its own investigation.

[Novus America]

I'm not saying all journalists are always right, and once in a while we do see some rather questionable actions by some of them, but I don't think they're significant enough compared with the numbers of journalists who have a better hold on their professionalism. I should also note that despite the common rumour among pro-government groups that it's easy to buy a fake press card, so far the Hong Kong Journalists Association has only received one case of someone using a fake press card since June last year. I'm not saying that fake press cards don't exist - you can pretty much buy most fake certificates and cards on Taobao nowadays - but I don't think there is a strong case supporting the notion that there are many protesters using fake press cards to ambush police.

I'm talking about real news cards. It's easy.Who would buy a fake?Journalists from western media such as the BBC are in a great position.If reporters fall into that position because they have no time to evacuate, it only means that local journalists are incompetent and unprofessional.

You do not need to be a professional to do good journalism. Sometimes the best journalism comes from ordinary people. Journalism is reporting what is going on.

And again you can report what is going on unless you are in the thick of it.
To really report on a battle, you need to report from the front line.

Making a journalist card too hard to get serves to restrict the freedom of the press. It does not necessarily ensure more truthful reporting.

[Tuthina]

I'm talking about real news cards. It's easy.Who would buy a fake?Journalists from western media such as the BBC are in a great position.If reporters fall into that position because they have no time to evacuate, it only means that local journalists are incompetent and unprofessional.

You do not need to be a professional to do good journalism. Sometimes the best journalism comes from ordinary people. Journalism is reporting what is going on.

And again you can report what is going on unless you are in the thick of it.
To really report on a battle, you need to report from the front line.

Making a journalist card too hard to get serves to restrict the freedom of the press. It does not necessarily ensure more truthful reporting.

And it especially should not be something monopolised by the government, or else we risk the government using it as a means to control the media and its role to monitor the government. Currently, I think countries where press certifications are provided by the government/police alone, tend to be sitting on the bottom of the list in terms of freedom of press.

Then again, I guess it doesn't really matter if you can just assault and/or prosecute reporters, press card or no.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

My government's policy is, of course. From its point of view, it's also good for our interests.What do you expect me to doubt? Doubt its policy will hurt me?I'm sorry, HK is a battlefield.Its significance is that this is the springboard for China to internationalize its RMB.It is necessary to drive western forces and Neo liberalism out of HK by all means.HK as a region belongs to China. If someone doesn't like it, I suggest they go to the UK or US.You got rid of the CCP, CCP got rid of you,and the West has new materials to attack CCP.In this way, everyone will be happy.

You don't understand my resion. The reporter reported the news. Hong Kong Journalists stand between police and protesters, throwing flasks at one side and explosion-proof cars at the other.And then they point the camera at the police.I'm not talking about their reports. I'm talking about their actions.Why don't you explain to me the necessity of this kind of behavior?

A lot of this is unreadable but I think you are asking about the behavior of the some of the journalists? When just because some journalists participated in such actions do not mean they all did and if you really want to see what is going on you have to report from the front line.
There is still a lot of good journalism going on.

A lie to advance the interests of Xi is still a lie to.

I am not denying Hong Kong is controlled by the PRC, and do not think independent is possible but I do not see why Xi has to screw everything up. Hong Kong was not a problem for the PRC before Xi started violating the Basic Law and the Sino–British Joint Declaration.
Hong Kong was not having these problems 10 years ago, Xi has to get angry because some Hong Kong booksellers exposed Xi’s corruption.

This is Xi’s personal problem.

Anyways if you “crush” Hong Kong then it will no longer work to international the RMB.
International businesses prefer to do business in Hong Kong ONLY because it has a more transparent legal structure. Eliminate its legal structure and they will just move to Singapore and then you can no longer internationalize the RMB through it!

Don't cling to the ridiculous reason of bookseller.Capitalists and their money don't care about democracy in Hong Kong.They only care about the stability of Hong Kong. The crowd on the street has affected the investment environment in Hong Kong, which has led to the decline of Hong Kong's economy.The CCP chose not to act, and Neo liberalism would occupy all parliamentary seats. If the CCP chooses to take action, it will let the West take measures.So what will the US do?Thanks to trump, he has finished all the cards.The impact of the Hong Kong issue will not be greater than the previous trade war.If the timetable is reversed, Trump's trade war will be delayed for one to two years, and whether CCP will choose this time point is difficult to say through this law.

Another point is that Hong Kong's position in the PRC has changed. Its economic status has declined and its political influence has increased.The relative impact of taking action at this time will be minimal.Now is the weakest time for the west to do anything.Since Hong Kong's economic situation has plummeted before, the impact on both the mainland and Hong Kong is minimal.What else can the United States do besides abolish Hong Kong's financial status?It's troublesome, but it doesn't mean that Hong Kong is irreplaceable

[Phoenicaea]

ehm, no..we need professional journalists with enquires, enough with scandal crying videos. we need built reports with synthesis as stephen spielberg says.

[Tuthina]

A lot of this is unreadable but I think you are asking about the behavior of the some of the journalists? When just because some journalists participated in such actions do not mean they all did and if you really want to see what is going on you have to report from the front line.
There is still a lot of good journalism going on.

A lie to advance the interests of Xi is still a lie to.

I am not denying Hong Kong is controlled by the PRC, and do not think independent is possible but I do not see why Xi has to screw everything up. Hong Kong was not a problem for the PRC before Xi started violating the Basic Law and the Sino–British Joint Declaration.
Hong Kong was not having these problems 10 years ago, Xi has to get angry because some Hong Kong booksellers exposed Xi’s corruption.

This is Xi’s personal problem.

Anyways if you “crush” Hong Kong then it will no longer work to international the RMB.
International businesses prefer to do business in Hong Kong ONLY because it has a more transparent legal structure. Eliminate its legal structure and they will just move to Singapore and then you can no longer internationalize the RMB through it!

Don't cling to the ridiculous reason of bookseller.Capitalists and their money don't care about democracy in Hong Kong.They only care about the stability of Hong Kong. The crowd on the street has affected the investment environment in Hong Kong, which has led to the decline of Hong Kong's economy.The CCP chose not to act, and Neo liberalism would occupy all parliamentary seats. If the CCP chooses to take action, it will let the West take measures.So what will the US do?Thanks to trump, he has finished all the cards.The impact of the Hong Kong issue will not be greater than the previous trade war.If the timetable is reversed, Trump's trade war will be delayed for one to two years, and whether CCP will choose this time point is difficult to say through this law.

Another point is that Hong Kong's position in the PRC has changed. Its economic status has declined and its political influence has increased.The relative impact of taking action at this time will be minimal.Now is the weakest time for the west to do anything.Since Hong Kong's economic situation has plummeted before, the impact on both the mainland and Hong Kong is minimal.What else can the United States do besides abolish Hong Kong's financial status?It's troublesome, but it doesn't mean that Hong Kong is irreplaceable

I see you're going for the "my way or the highway" approach. While it might be good for problem-solving in the same way as the law of the instrument, it's not exactly a good approach in terms of trying to convince others your argument is more valid.

[Rusozak]

Don't cling to the ridiculous reason of bookseller.Capitalists and their money don't care about democracy in Hong Kong.They only care about the stability of Hong Kong. The crowd on the street has affected the investment environment in Hong Kong, which has led to the decline of Hong Kong's economy.The CCP chose not to act, and Neo liberalism would occupy all parliamentary seats. If the CCP chooses to take action, it will let the West take measures.So what will the US do?Thanks to trump, he has finished all the cards.The impact of the Hong Kong issue will not be greater than the previous trade war.If the timetable is reversed, Trump's trade war will be delayed for one to two years, and whether CCP will choose this time point is difficult to say through this law.

Another point is that Hong Kong's position in the PRC has changed. Its economic status has declined and its political influence has increased.The relative impact of taking action at this time will be minimal.Now is the weakest time for the west to do anything.Since Hong Kong's economic situation has plummeted before, the impact on both the mainland and Hong Kong is minimal.What else can the United States do besides abolish Hong Kong's financial status?It's troublesome, but it doesn't mean that Hong Kong is irreplaceable

I see you're going for the "my way or the highway" approach. While it might be good for problem-solving in the same way as the law of the instrument, it's not exactly a good approach in terms of trying to convince others your argument is more valid.

Which is also the approach of the PRC in general. And since their future has a rising superpower hinges on international support, it may be problematic for them to continue pursuing no-compromise solutions.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

I'm talking about real news cards. It's easy.Who would buy a fake?Journalists from western media such as the BBC are in a great position.If reporters fall into that position because they have no time to evacuate, it only means that local journalists are incompetent and unprofessional.

1) Did you even read the rest of my post?
2) Getting an actual press card from HKJA takes quite a bit more than just paying $20 like you're buying a drink, just saying. If you have evidence that someone is abusing its existing system to obtain press card, I'm sure the folks in HKJA would like to take it for its own investigation.

HKJA?At the Legislative Council meeting on January 8, Liu Jianghua, director of the Civil Affairs Bureau, said that there is no official body in Hong Kong to issue press cards uniformly.Hong Kong media registered in Hong Kong issues Hong Kong press cards. These press cards are all Hong Kong press cards designed by Hong Kong media. There is no uniform version, but the Hong Kong press cards issued are legal.

[Tuthina]

I see you're going for the "my way or the highway" approach. While it might be good for problem-solving in the same way as the law of the instrument, it's not exactly a good approach in terms of trying to convince others your argument is more valid.

Which is also the approach of the PRC in general. And since their future has a rising superpower hinges on international support, it may be problematic for them to continue pursuing no-compromise solutions.

It also has an increasingly tight stranglehold on its own growing consumer market, so to continue the metaphor, I guess you can say the golden hammer can be pretty good at using it to hammer any nails that stick out. While it's true that if the rest of the world unite in their effort, they would be able to force PRC to compromise, I don't really have much hope in that happening.

1) Did you even read the rest of my post?
2) Getting an actual press card from HKJA takes quite a bit more than just paying $20 like you're buying a drink, just saying. If you have evidence that someone is abusing its existing system to obtain press card, I'm sure the folks in HKJA would like to take it for its own investigation.

HKJA?At the Legislative Council meeting on January 8, Liu Jianghua, director of the Civil Affairs Bureau, said that there is no official body in Hong Kong to issue press cards uniformly.Hong Kong media registered in Hong Kong issues Hong Kong press cards. These press cards are all Hong Kong press cards designed by Hong Kong media. There is no uniform version, but the Hong Kong press cards issued are legal.

1) Who?
2) HKJA membership card holder is one of the three categories of media representative recognised by the Police General Orders, the other two being HKPPA membership card and, as you said, proof of identity issued by newspapers and other media agencies. I'm still not sure where you're going with that, though.
3) We're really getting off-topic regarding the minutiae of Hong Kong's current ongoings. It's relevant to the topic at hand, but I really don't think the future of China is going to be significantly impacted by Hong Kong reporters' credentials. If you want to continue the discussion, you should go to the relevant thread dedicated to the topic.

[Novus America]

A lot of this is unreadable but I think you are asking about the behavior of the some of the journalists? When just because some journalists participated in such actions do not mean they all did and if you really want to see what is going on you have to report from the front line.
There is still a lot of good journalism going on.

A lie to advance the interests of Xi is still a lie to.

I am not denying Hong Kong is controlled by the PRC, and do not think independent is possible but I do not see why Xi has to screw everything up. Hong Kong was not a problem for the PRC before Xi started violating the Basic Law and the Sino–British Joint Declaration.
Hong Kong was not having these problems 10 years ago, Xi has to get angry because some Hong Kong booksellers exposed Xi’s corruption.

This is Xi’s personal problem.

Anyways if you “crush” Hong Kong then it will no longer work to international the RMB.
International businesses prefer to do business in Hong Kong ONLY because it has a more transparent legal structure. Eliminate its legal structure and they will just move to Singapore and then you can no longer internationalize the RMB through it!

Don't cling to the ridiculous reason of bookseller.Capitalists and their money don't care about democracy in Hong Kong.They only care about the stability of Hong Kong. The crowd on the street has affected the investment environment in Hong Kong, which has led to the decline of Hong Kong's economy.The CCP chose not to act, and Neo liberalism would occupy all parliamentary seats. If the CCP chooses to take action, it will let the West take measures.So what will the US do?Thanks to trump, he has finished all the cards.The impact of the Hong Kong issue will not be greater than the previous trade war.If the timetable is reversed, Trump's trade war will be delayed for one to two years, and whether CCP will choose this time point is difficult to say through this law.

Another point is that Hong Kong's position in the PRC has changed. Its economic status has declined and its political influence has increased.The relative impact of taking action at this time will be minimal.Now is the weakest time for the west to do anything.Since Hong Kong's economic situation has plummeted before, the impact on both the mainland and Hong Kong is minimal.What else can the United States do besides abolish Hong Kong's financial status?It's troublesome, but it doesn't mean that Hong Kong is irreplaceable

Again you are very hard to understand but it is important to note the protestors are NOT neoliberals and those they voted into local seats are NOT neoliberals.

In fact they want a more equitable distribution of resources.
DAB are the ones pushing neoliberal economics combined with authoritarianism.

So you gave it all backwards. The protestors do not support neoliberalism at all. And Xi is not fighting neoliberalism. Xi just wants to punish people who exposed him for being corrupt.

Your Manichean zero sum friend enemy approach is very problematic and makes you unable to see the bigger picture.

Sure Hong Kong is less important than it was so the cost of crushing it less, but what benefit does crushing Hong Kong produce? As opposed to just leaving them they way they were before the book seller mess Xi caused?

Xi set fire, so if you put out the fire at great cost, Xi still caused the cost.

If I set my house on fire, then demolish my house to put out the fire, was it worth it?
When I could have just either not set my house on fire or put out the fire without demolishing it?

And actually neoliberals in the West tend to SUPPORT the PRC, the biggest Western critics of the PRC are NOT neoliberals!

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Don't cling to the ridiculous reason of bookseller.Capitalists and their money don't care about democracy in Hong Kong.They only care about the stability of Hong Kong. The crowd on the street has affected the investment environment in Hong Kong, which has led to the decline of Hong Kong's economy.The CCP chose not to act, and Neo liberalism would occupy all parliamentary seats. If the CCP chooses to take action, it will let the West take measures.So what will the US do?Thanks to trump, he has finished all the cards.The impact of the Hong Kong issue will not be greater than the previous trade war.If the timetable is reversed, Trump's trade war will be delayed for one to two years, and whether CCP will choose this time point is difficult to say through this law.

Another point is that Hong Kong's position in the PRC has changed. Its economic status has declined and its political influence has increased.The relative impact of taking action at this time will be minimal.Now is the weakest time for the west to do anything.Since Hong Kong's economic situation has plummeted before, the impact on both the mainland and Hong Kong is minimal.What else can the United States do besides abolish Hong Kong's financial status?It's troublesome, but it doesn't mean that Hong Kong is irreplaceable

Again you are very hard to understand but it is important to note the protestors are NOT neoliberals and those they voted into local seats are NOT neoliberals.

In fact they want a more equitable distribution of resources.
DAB are the ones pushing neoliberal economics combined with authoritarianism.

So you gave it all backwards. The protestors do not support neoliberalism at all. And Xi is not fighting neoliberalism. Xi just wants to punish people who exposed him for being corrupt.

Your Manichean zero sum friend enemy approach is very problematic and makes you unable to see the bigger picture.

Sure Hong Kong is less important than it was so the cost of crushing it less, but what benefit does crushing Hong Kong produce? As opposed to just leaving them they way they were before the book seller mess Xi caused?

Xi set fire, so if you put out the fire at great cost, Xi still caused the cost.

If I set my house on fire, then demolish my house to put out the fire, was it worth it?
When I could have just either not set my house on fire or put out the fire without demolishing it?

Fair distribution of resources?You can't see at all. Hong Kong has no resources, everything is in the hands of local capitalists.Do you think these people on the street can get jobs, income and other things? Hong Kong is a financial city. Land and real estate cannot be developed.Only the elite can enjoy the benefits. Most people have nothing to gain at all.The Hong Kong government didn't care about these people before.The total living area of a dozen people in the street is not necessarily the size of your garden.From the perspective of economic structure, the most unfair place in Hong Kong.

Do you know what neoliberalism is? Neo liberalism yearns for complete market freedom, so they naturally oppose a strong central government.Hong Kong is arguably the best place to show Neo liberalism.His money is from finance and entrepot trade. The Hong Kong government is very rich. Its fiscal surplus is very large.Hong Kong's political and business sectors support each other. This is neoliberalism.

They don't think their political demands have been heard.So they took to the streets.They think their freedom has been damaged and they are dissatisfied with the HK Government.Suppose they succeed today, and the CCP succumbs. Who will tell me what they will do next? What will they do to use the executive and legislative powers they have gained? And then what interests of them will be guaranteed.I don't think they can get anything.In this case, Hong Kong still has no future.

[Novus America]

Again you are very hard to understand but it is important to note the protestors are NOT neoliberals and those they voted into local seats are NOT neoliberals.

In fact they want a more equitable distribution of resources.
DAB are the ones pushing neoliberal economics combined with authoritarianism.

So you gave it all backwards. The protestors do not support neoliberalism at all. And Xi is not fighting neoliberalism. Xi just wants to punish people who exposed him for being corrupt.

Your Manichean zero sum friend enemy approach is very problematic and makes you unable to see the bigger picture.

Sure Hong Kong is less important than it was so the cost of crushing it less, but what benefit does crushing Hong Kong produce? As opposed to just leaving them they way they were before the book seller mess Xi caused?

Xi set fire, so if you put out the fire at great cost, Xi still caused the cost.

If I set my house on fire, then demolish my house to put out the fire, was it worth it?
When I could have just either not set my house on fire or put out the fire without demolishing it?

Fair distribution of resources?You can't see at all. Hong Kong has no resources, everything is in the hands of local capitalists.Do you think these people on the street can get jobs, income and other things? Hong Kong is a financial city. Land and real estate cannot be developed.Only the elite can enjoy the benefits. Most people have nothing to gain at all.The Hong Kong government didn't care about these people before.The total living area of a dozen people in the street is not necessarily the size of your garden.From the perspective of economic structure, the most unfair place in Hong Kong.

Do you know what neoliberalism is? Neo liberalism yearns for complete market freedom, so they naturally oppose a strong central government.Hong Kong is arguably the best place to show Neo liberalism.His money is from finance and entrepot trade. The Hong Kong government is very rich. Its fiscal surplus is very large.Hong Kong's political and business sectors support each other. This is neoliberalism.

They don't think their political demands have been heard.So they took to the streets.They think their freedom has been damaged and they are dissatisfied with the HK Government.Suppose they succeed today, and the CCP succumbs. Who will tell me what they will do next? What will they do to use the executive and legislative powers they have gained? And then what interests of them will be guaranteed.I don't think they can get anything.In this case, Hong Kong still has no future.

Civil, political and economic freedoms are not the same thing though.
You can have high economic freedom with low political and economic freedom.
Neoliberalism focuses on (a corrupted and incorrect version) of economic freedom.

Of course you can have high economic freedom in one area but not in another.

But yes. The government of Hong Kong is neoliberal. The protestors oppose the government.
But Xi is SUPPORTING (and controlling) the Hong Kong government against the people!

Xi is actually fighting for the neoliberals although also undermining them at the same time.

The PRC wants Hong Kong to stay economically neoliberal!
But to also reduce its political and civil liberties.

The protestors want more political and civil liberties but LESS neoliberalism!

Yes the economic structure of Hong Kong is very unfair. But the protestors want to change that! And Xi wants to keep it unfair! Xi’s problem with Hong Kong is not the economic inequality it is that people can expose Xi’s corruption.

If the people of Hong Kong were allowed free and fair elections (Hong Kong as elections but they are rigged) (and remember one of their demands is free elections) then Hong Kong would be more fair. Singapore for example is a financial center, but it has a more fair system because it uses a system of land value taxes to support a welfare structure and ensure better access housing (despite being crowded it has a very high homeownership rate).

So that is the key. The protestors are fighting for more civil and political liberties, NOT neoliberalism.

Although again this should go to the Hong Kong thread.

[Rusozak]

I think at least some parts of Hong Kong are topical for discussion, as I don't think you can talk about the future of China as a whole without talking about the Hong Kong situation. It's kind of a pivot point right now that could decide how the future of the PRC will play out. Because like it or not, there is a lot riding on how the PRC handles this. The world is watching and judging China for what it does in the next couple weeks. And they may find themselves short of desperately needed trade partners and diplomatic allies.

[Bombadil]

Fair distribution of resources?You can't see at all. Hong Kong has no resources, everything is in the hands of local capitalists.Do you think these people on the street can get jobs, income and other things? Hong Kong is a financial city. Land and real estate cannot be developed.Only the elite can enjoy the benefits.

Well quite, Tung Chee Hwa is a property developer, the CCP loaned him $100M to bail him out and then installed him as CE to do their dirty work. All the while they pour their ill-gotten gains into HK, Xi Jinping's family have more than plenty of property here, it's quite the cosy arrangement to extract wealth not just from HK but from all Chinese people. Give you enough to keep you in a vegetative state of contentment with one hand while they take your money to send it, along with their children, overseas with the other, god forbid you're not a good little guard, they'll take a lot more if you don't comply.

Meanwhile, seems the EU is also waking up..

In remarks that appear to confirm that the European Union will speed up a shift to a more independent and aggressive posture towards Beijing, he said the 27-nation bloc “should follow our own interests and values and avoid being instrumentalised by one or the other”.

“We need a more robust strategy for China, which also requires better relations with the rest of democratic Asia,” he added.

The EU has been reluctant to side with Donald Trump’s confrontational stance towards China, but Beijing’s assault on the independence of Hong Kong, its growing willingness to side with Europe’s populists and its refusal to open its markets has led to a change of heart, according to analysts.

Margrethe Vestager, the EU competition commissioner and a key figure in how Europe will handle China in the future, has recently noted what she describes as a lack of reciprocity. “In the part of west Denmark in which I grew up, we were taught that if you invite a guest to dinner and they do not invite you back, you stop inviting them,” she explained. She said Europe needed “to be more assertive and confident about who we are”.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Fair distribution of resources?You can't see at all. Hong Kong has no resources, everything is in the hands of local capitalists.Do you think these people on the street can get jobs, income and other things? Hong Kong is a financial city. Land and real estate cannot be developed.Only the elite can enjoy the benefits. Most people have nothing to gain at all.The Hong Kong government didn't care about these people before.The total living area of a dozen people in the street is not necessarily the size of your garden.From the perspective of economic structure, the most unfair place in Hong Kong.

Do you know what neoliberalism is? Neo liberalism yearns for complete market freedom, so they naturally oppose a strong central government.Hong Kong is arguably the best place to show Neo liberalism.His money is from finance and entrepot trade. The Hong Kong government is very rich. Its fiscal surplus is very large.Hong Kong's political and business sectors support each other. This is neoliberalism.

They don't think their political demands have been heard.So they took to the streets.They think their freedom has been damaged and they are dissatisfied with the HK Government.Suppose they succeed today, and the CCP succumbs. Who will tell me what they will do next? What will they do to use the executive and legislative powers they have gained? And then what interests of them will be guaranteed.I don't think they can get anything.In this case, Hong Kong still has no future.

Civil, political and economic freedoms are not the same thing though.
You can have high economic freedom with low political and economic freedom.
Neoliberalism focuses on (a corrupted and incorrect version) of economic freedom.

Of course you can have high economic freedom in one area but not in another.

But yes. The government of Hong Kong is neoliberal. The protestors oppose the government.
But Xi is SUPPORTING (and controlling) the Hong Kong government against the people!

Xi is actually fighting for the neoliberals although also undermining them at the same time.

The PRC wants Hong Kong to stay economically neoliberal!
But to also reduce its political and civil liberties.

The protestors want more political and civil liberties but LESS neoliberalism!

Yes the economic structure of Hong Kong is very unfair. But the protestors want to change that! And Xi wants to keep it unfair! Xi’s problem with Hong Kong is not the economic inequality it is that people can expose Xi’s corruption.

If the people of Hong Kong were allowed free and fair elections (Hong Kong as elections but they are rigged) (and remember one of their demands is free elections) then Hong Kong would be more fair. Singapore for example is a financial center, but it has a more fair system because it uses a system of land value taxes to support a welfare structure and ensure better access housing (despite being crowded it has a very high homeownership rate).

So that is the key. The protestors are fighting for more civil and political liberties, NOT neoliberalism.

Although again this should go to the Hong Kong thread.

No way. There's a dictatorship in Singapore.There are many things the government can do.The Hong Kong government has tried to introduce a series of social equity policies, which have been voted down.Their reason at that time was to destroy the environment.If we want social equity, we must expand the power of the government. The reality is that the government has no power and ability to develop Hong Kong.The protesters will weaken the Hong Kong government, which will encourage the capitalists's power.

[Infected Mushroom]

Civil, political and economic freedoms are not the same thing though.
You can have high economic freedom with low political and economic freedom.
Neoliberalism focuses on (a corrupted and incorrect version) of economic freedom.

Of course you can have high economic freedom in one area but not in another.

But yes. The government of Hong Kong is neoliberal. The protestors oppose the government.
But Xi is SUPPORTING (and controlling) the Hong Kong government against the people!

Xi is actually fighting for the neoliberals although also undermining them at the same time.

The PRC wants Hong Kong to stay economically neoliberal!
But to also reduce its political and civil liberties.

The protestors want more political and civil liberties but LESS neoliberalism!

Yes the economic structure of Hong Kong is very unfair. But the protestors want to change that! And Xi wants to keep it unfair! Xi’s problem with Hong Kong is not the economic inequality it is that people can expose Xi’s corruption.

If the people of Hong Kong were allowed free and fair elections (Hong Kong as elections but they are rigged) (and remember one of their demands is free elections) then Hong Kong would be more fair. Singapore for example is a financial center, but it has a more fair system because it uses a system of land value taxes to support a welfare structure and ensure better access housing (despite being crowded it has a very high homeownership rate).

So that is the key. The protestors are fighting for more civil and political liberties, NOT neoliberalism.

Although again this should go to the Hong Kong thread.

No way. There's a dictatorship in Singapore.There are many things the government can do.The Hong Kong government has tried to introduce a series of social equity policies, which have been voted down.Their reason at that time was to destroy the environment.If we want social equity, we must expand the power of the government. The reality is that the government has no power and ability to develop Hong Kong.The protesters will weaken the Hong Kong government, which will encourage the capitalists's power.

I agree with this analysis. I think we need the government to do more to end the social unrest in Hong Kong.

[Bombadil]

No way. There's a dictatorship in Singapore.There are many things the government can do.The Hong Kong government has tried to introduce a series of social equity policies, which have been voted down.Their reason at that time was to destroy the environment.If we want social equity, we must expand the power of the government. The reality is that the government has no power and ability to develop Hong Kong.The protesters will weaken the Hong Kong government, which will encourage the capitalists's power.

It's not exactly a dictatorship in Singapore, it's a family legacy similar to how India voted in the Congress Party for decades despite functioning democracy.

HK government could do a lot, they just have fuck all vision. Funnily enough someone noted that the problem is HK never fought and won its freedom, unlike many other nations. Hence they don't have that belief in building their future. HK government is just a civil service for Beijing now.

I mean.. take a look at the harbour front, Singapore has an idea how to develop theirs, HK has none. I built the interim website for the ICC and there were lovely drawings of parks and gardens and etc., 15 years later and it's still a fucking construction site.

And the CCP works hand in hand with the 'capitalists', because HK is their piggy bank, that's why they appoint them to CE positions though with Carrie Lam they clearly don't care for the CE position anymore as anything even remotely legitimate.. so hand it to a real civil servant to solely obey their wishes.

[Infected Mushroom]

No way. There's a dictatorship in Singapore.There are many things the government can do.The Hong Kong government has tried to introduce a series of social equity policies, which have been voted down.Their reason at that time was to destroy the environment.If we want social equity, we must expand the power of the government. The reality is that the government has no power and ability to develop Hong Kong.The protesters will weaken the Hong Kong government, which will encourage the capitalists's power.

It's not exactly a dictatorship in Singapore, it's a family legacy similar to how India voted in the Congress Party for decades despite functioning democracy.

HK government could do a lot, they just have fuck all vision. Funnily enough someone noted that the problem is HK never fought and won its freedom, unlike many other nations. Hence they don't have that belief in building their future. HK government is just a civil service for Beijing now.

I mean.. take a look at the harbour front, Singapore has an idea how to develop theirs, HK has none. I built the interim website for the ICC and there were lovely drawings of parks and gardens and etc., 15 years later and it's still a fucking construction site.

And the CCP works hand in hand with the 'capitalists', because HK is their piggy bank, that's why they appoint them to CE positions though with Carrie Lam they clearly don't care for the CE position anymore as anything even remotely legitimate.. so hand it to a real civil servant to solely obey their wishes.

Carrie Lam remains in office because she has remained loyal to her government. This is what the Chinese reward, loyalty.

[Bombadil]

It's not exactly a dictatorship in Singapore, it's a family legacy similar to how India voted in the Congress Party for decades despite functioning democracy.

HK government could do a lot, they just have fuck all vision. Funnily enough someone noted that the problem is HK never fought and won its freedom, unlike many other nations. Hence they don't have that belief in building their future. HK government is just a civil service for Beijing now.

I mean.. take a look at the harbour front, Singapore has an idea how to develop theirs, HK has none. I built the interim website for the ICC and there were lovely drawings of parks and gardens and etc., 15 years later and it's still a fucking construction site.

And the CCP works hand in hand with the 'capitalists', because HK is their piggy bank, that's why they appoint them to CE positions though with Carrie Lam they clearly don't care for the CE position anymore as anything even remotely legitimate.. so hand it to a real civil servant to solely obey their wishes.

Carrie Lam remains in office because she has remained loyal to her government. This is what the Chinese reward, loyalty.

IM, the CCP is breaking the law in this imposition of Article 23. It breaks international UN recognised treaty that China signed up to. Why are we giving them a pass on breaking the law here? They are not supposed to meddle in HK until 2047, the deal was that HK remains free while China has the opportunity to open up and reform into a democracy as promised in their own 1982 constitution.

Xi Jinping has gone the opposite way and is tearing up international law.

Take it up with them.

[Bombadil]

Following the storm blackout of Beijing last Thursday following their discussion of the HK issue, today Beijing experienced a 4.4 earthquake.

A 4.4-magnitude earthquake has struck near China‘s capital city of Beijing, Chinese media reported.

Beijing residents reported feeling the tremors following the quake in Langfang City, in Hebei province.

4 is the symbol for death, si and si sounding the same though different tones. I hope the CCP take these signs from the heavens before they lose their mandate.

Or at least I hope they don't..

Today's NPC agenda..

Tuesday, May 26

9 a.m.: Delegates deliberate the NPCSC’s work report in small groups
3 p.m.: Delegates deliberate a revised version of the draft Civil Code, a revised version of the draft Hong Kong Decision, the SPC’s work report, and the SPP’s work report in small groups

[Shanghai industrial complex]

No way. There's a dictatorship in Singapore.There are many things the government can do.The Hong Kong government has tried to introduce a series of social equity policies, which have been voted down.Their reason at that time was to destroy the environment.If we want social equity, we must expand the power of the government. The reality is that the government has no power and ability to develop Hong Kong.The protesters will weaken the Hong Kong government, which will encourage the capitalists's power.

It's not exactly a dictatorship in Singapore, it's a family legacy similar to how India voted in the Congress Party for decades despite functioning democracy.

HK government could do a lot, they just have fuck all vision. Funnily enough someone noted that the problem is HK never fought and won its freedom, unlike many other nations. Hence they don't have that belief in building their future. HK government is just a civil service for Beijing now.

I mean.. take a look at the harbour front, Singapore has an idea how to develop theirs, HK has none. I built the interim website for the ICC and there were lovely drawings of parks and gardens and etc., 15 years later and it's still a fucking construction site.

And the CCP works hand in hand with the 'capitalists', because HK is their piggy bank, that's why they appoint them to CE positions though with Carrie Lam they clearly don't care for the CE position anymore as anything even remotely legitimate.. so hand it to a real civil servant to solely obey their wishes.

Do you mean you want the CCP to suppress these capitalists or do you want to come by yourself?How much is Hong Kong? It's not big when it's the savings tank of the CCP.HK once had plans to develop high technology, which was destroyed by real estate developers.HK's attempt to reclaim land from the sea has also been hampered by environmental groups.If the HK government were really a civil servant in Beijing, this incompetent government would have been replaced.
According to Hong Kong law, it is not illegal to incite rebellion, subvert the government, engage in espionage, carry out independence, support terrorism and carry out terrorist activities in Hong Kong. The police can only prosecute for other reasons.It's really very very freedom

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Following the storm blackout of Beijing last Thursday following their discussion of the HK issue, today Beijing experienced a 4.4 earthquake.

A 4.4-magnitude earthquake has struck near China‘s capital city of Beijing, Chinese media reported.

Beijing residents reported feeling the tremors following the quake in Langfang City, in Hebei province.

4 is the symbol for death, si and si sounding the same though different tones. I hope the CCP take these signs from the heavens before they lose their mandate.

Or at least I hope they don't..

Today's NPC agenda..

Tuesday, May 26

9 a.m.: Delegates deliberate the NPCSC’s work report in small groups
3 p.m.: Delegates deliberate a revised version of the draft Civil Code, a revised version of the draft Hong Kong Decision, the SPC’s work report, and the SPP’s work report in small groups

Are you a fool?You're beginning to believe in this superstition

[Tuthina]

It's not exactly a dictatorship in Singapore, it's a family legacy similar to how India voted in the Congress Party for decades despite functioning democracy.

HK government could do a lot, they just have fuck all vision. Funnily enough someone noted that the problem is HK never fought and won its freedom, unlike many other nations. Hence they don't have that belief in building their future. HK government is just a civil service for Beijing now.

I mean.. take a look at the harbour front, Singapore has an idea how to develop theirs, HK has none. I built the interim website for the ICC and there were lovely drawings of parks and gardens and etc., 15 years later and it's still a fucking construction site.

And the CCP works hand in hand with the 'capitalists', because HK is their piggy bank, that's why they appoint them to CE positions though with Carrie Lam they clearly don't care for the CE position anymore as anything even remotely legitimate.. so hand it to a real civil servant to solely obey their wishes.

Do you mean you want the CCP to suppress these capitalists or do you want to come by yourself?How much is Hong Kong? It's not big when it's the savings tank of the CCP.HK once had plans to develop high technology, which was destroyed by real estate developers.HK's attempt to reclaim land from the sea has also been hampered by environmental groups.If the HK government were really a civil servant in Beijing, this incompetent government would have been replaced.
According to Hong Kong law, it is not illegal to incite rebellion, subvert the government, engage in espionage, carry out independence, support terrorism and carry out terrorist activities in Hong Kong. The police can only prosecute for other reasons.It's really very very freedom

I don't know about you, but I very much like the very very freedom.

And of course, the national security act is to prevent terrorism and violence, because we all know currently there are no laws active in Hong Kong that forbids violence not sanctioned by the government, spying on secret documents and facilities, or even simply being in the same place where said violence takes place.

[Bombadil]

It's not exactly a dictatorship in Singapore, it's a family legacy similar to how India voted in the Congress Party for decades despite functioning democracy.

HK government could do a lot, they just have fuck all vision. Funnily enough someone noted that the problem is HK never fought and won its freedom, unlike many other nations. Hence they don't have that belief in building their future. HK government is just a civil service for Beijing now.

I mean.. take a look at the harbour front, Singapore has an idea how to develop theirs, HK has none. I built the interim website for the ICC and there were lovely drawings of parks and gardens and etc., 15 years later and it's still a fucking construction site.

And the CCP works hand in hand with the 'capitalists', because HK is their piggy bank, that's why they appoint them to CE positions though with Carrie Lam they clearly don't care for the CE position anymore as anything even remotely legitimate.. so hand it to a real civil servant to solely obey their wishes.

Do you mean you want the CCP to suppress these capitalists or do you want to come by yourself?How much is Hong Kong? It's not big when it's the savings tank of the CCP.HK once had plans to develop high technology, which was destroyed by real estate developers.HK's attempt to reclaim land from the sea has also been hampered by environmental groups.If the HK government were really a civil servant in Beijing, this incompetent government would have been replaced.
According to Hong Kong law, it is not illegal to incite rebellion, subvert the government, engage in espionage, carry out independence, support terrorism and carry out terrorist activities in Hong Kong. The police can only prosecute for other reasons.It's really very very freedom

Beijing really couldn't care for these, HK is a piggy bank in terms of property prices as well as having the 4th largest open stock exchange in the world. It's an outlet to get money out of China; funnel it through Macau into HK stock exchange and property and you have a lovely piggy bank should things go south but also for you to invest elsewhere in the world.

The rest they really couldn't care about.