The Future of China

[Bombadil]

Aww aren’t you sick of people from HK, we know your lies and bullshit and fight to retain our freedoms. We managed Covid despite your puppet government here, as did Taiwan and I’m sure that irks you.

A free, educated and sensible Chinese people do better than your CCP mandated approach - it’s actually shocking that you accept the CCP line that the people of China, you, are not smart enough to manage your life, choose your leaders, say what you feel - why do they think you’re such children? It’s because power is what they want, power to rule you, cheat you, profit from you..

..not so different from free societies but we can kick people out, talk freely and, eventually, uncover the truth.

China rose because of open and reform, money from foreign countries, innovation and technology exchanged, all on the promise of further opening even promised in the 1982 Constitution of China, of the promises of the Joint Sino-Anglo Treaty, of the promises to join WTO and win the Olympics.

Promises broken even to the Chinese people because everyone knows -
You cannot trust the CCP.

Certainly not Xi Jinping.

Those who commit crimes in Hong Kong can be transferred to the United States and the United Kingdom. But it can't be transferred to the mainland and Taiwan. Why?What's your explanation for this
Do you think you manage yourself well?Are you fighting for freedom?So I ask you, how did the law that Lin was going to pass jeopardize your freedom?You're worried about the day when you're going to be charged with felony and sent to the mainland.Who will catch you,mainland police or HK police?

God it’s easy when one’s talking to a person swallowing the party line..

The extradition bill was devised because book sellers and businessmen were kidnapped illegally out of HK.

Booksellers?

Why?

They published books on Xi Jinping’s wealth, affairs and family wealth.

This raised international outcry, kidnapping people outside of your jurisdiction is wrong, so they created the Extradition Bill and waited for a Taiwan murder to enact it, so they could legally take dissenters out of HK without the international outcry over kidnap.

Taiwan rejected it, HK people rejected it, because Chinese law says no matter where you break law you can be tried on Chinese soil.

Now China, beyond illegal kidnapping, has broken 1C2S, international treaties, all for the baby protection of Xi Jinping.

The law was created by the CCP to massage Xi Jinping’s thin skin. Chinese people are punished for it. You don’t even know truth because you can’t be trusted with it by your own government, your own dear leader.

You know the CCP lies, and directs your media to lie. Why? Why can’t they trust you with the truth?

Truth is Xi Jinping and CCP are corrupt and interested only in their wealth and power, not you, even as you defend them.

US and UK have a degree of rule of law to protect its people from the government and police, China does not as every Uigher, dissenter or otherwise can tell you, just a ‘cup of tea’ with the police and disappear.

[New Bremerton]

That last sentence is completely incoherent.
But see that is part of the problem. You might care nothing for emotion (although in truth emotion you cannot escape) and morality but actually politics is emotion, and morality is part of emotion. Not everyone shares your thinking and priorities.

Unless you take the morality of your target audience into account, your message will fail.
You might not care about the morality. But many European leaders do care.

Only the last sentence?

I think what SIC is trying to preach is basically a cynic world view, one where everything is meant to be cold, hard self-interest. It is admittedly a rather common stance among mainland Chinese as far as I can tell. That said, most of the time it seems to be more an excuse to be politically apathetic when being politically active would be inconvenient for the regime. When it comes to time for political mobilisation, like the sporadic jingoism I mentioned before, the people are none too eager to parrot official stance, even in cases where it won't matter much for their social credit.

Chalk it down to the legacy of communism and the Cultural Revolution sweeping all morals, traditions, and cultural institutions aside. Money and power are all that matter now. Taiwanese, Hong Kongers, and other overseas Chinese all retain their original cultures, customs, and centuries-old traditions and value-systems to varying degrees, in many cases with liberal, Western value systems supplementing and fusing perfectly with their pre-existing belief systems. The Japanese and South Koreans are far more Chinese in their outlook than the Mainland Chinese and North Koreans.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Pro Chinese win HK election? Never heard of it.Where did you get the news?If you want to know what Chinese think tanks say, you have to watch the Chinese media. It's like I want to know what Americans are talking about. I can read English newspapers.You don't really think people in Hong Kong and Taiwan can decide their own destiny, do you?Taiwan has to do whatever the United States says. Except for the little things that don't matter.People concern can't affect anything, because politicians don't care.They have traded with Taiwan with ccp once and will continue to do so in the future.

I posted the source:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatl ... le/602551/
PRC affiliated sources were widely claiming a “silent majority” in Hong Kong would vote for Pro CCP candidates. They were wrong. Obviously the PRC is obviously not always that smart.
Again I admit Trump does stupid things, and the US government does stupid things. Can you just admit Xi and the CCP government do stupid things?

I do not like my current politicians in better and will push for new and better ones. That is something you cannot do.

Again this falls into incoherence, the English here is near unreadable in places.
But based on what I think you are saying while it is true Taiwan has to choose between the PRC or US support, it is false equivalency. And it is still a choice. And they have chosen to get US support and not be part of the PRC. The people of Taiwan could choose to join the PRC if they wanted.

And choosing the US still gives them more freedom. Sure obviously to get the US to support them they have to align their foreign policy to ours but the US has no desire to annex them and rule them. No interest in replacing their own government with one appointed by us or passing laws that make it illegal for people to criticize us.

They have a choice between much greater freedom and much less freedom. And they want the more freedom.

I admit that CCP government has many wrong decisions.The problem is that what I think is wrong is the opposite of what you think, which leads you to think that I think CCP is right.No, they are too slow and weak in dealing with Hong Kong.We generally hope that the Hong Kong Garrison will take action in November.Sorry, we can only see from the political demands of Hong Kong people that they want to break away from the rule of the CCP, be independent of China and be in the arms of the Western camp.They still don't understand that the premise of 1c2s is to support 1C.
We don't think the US wants to annex Taiwan.A place can't decide its own destiny only by local people.Independent? No way. Don't even think about it.America will not make Texas independent, Britain will not make sugra independent, Spain will not make Catalunya independent.
Freedom,great.We used to bleed for freedom and independence. You used to bleed for freedom and independence.Votes are really valuable only if they are won by resistance.It's ridiculous to have a guy like HK who's blowing the air conditioner in the market and making a revolution.Once again, I respect all the revolutionaries who really want freedom.In Hong Kong in the early 1980s, there were. Now, no

（he say:Because we are aboveboard）

[Tuthina]

Only the last sentence?

I think what SIC is trying to preach is basically a cynic world view, one where everything is meant to be cold, hard self-interest. It is admittedly a rather common stance among mainland Chinese as far as I can tell. That said, most of the time it seems to be more an excuse to be politically apathetic when being politically active would be inconvenient for the regime. When it comes to time for political mobilisation, like the sporadic jingoism I mentioned before, the people are none too eager to parrot official stance, even in cases where it won't matter much for their social credit.

Chalk it down to the legacy of communism and the Cultural Revolution sweeping all morals, traditions, and cultural institutions aside. Money and power are all that matter now. Taiwanese, Hong Kongers, and other overseas Chinese all retain their original cultures, customs, and centuries-old traditions and value-systems to varying degrees, in many cases with liberal, Western value systems supplementing and fusing perfectly with their pre-existing belief systems. The Japanese and South Koreans are far more Chinese in their outlook than the Mainland Chinese and North Koreans.

I wouldn't say that retaining pre-revolution Chinese culture would help that issue much, considering dynastic China is similarly authoritarian and conformist (although maybe fair for its time?). I do agree that the Cultural Revolution and the lack of political liberalisation play a huge role in the pervasive cynicism in mainland China, though. After all, if you know straying from the official stance too much would get you prosecuted, and the state has a history of mobilising your neighbours into snitching and condemning you, in the long run, you would keep your mouth shut too, which makes the rest of the dissidents less likely to speak up due to the perception of them being the minority.

I think modern ROC probably poses the sharpest contrast in that regard, given how politically active many of its citizens are. Perhaps it has something to do with them having experienced the pain of living under a similar autocracy, and that many are starting to realise that the price of freedom is, indeed, eternal vigilance. I would say the population of Hong Kong is starting to realise that too, but I digress.

Ultimately, living in PRC might be a good deal for cynics, who are perfectly willing to keep their mouth and mind shut, in exchange for material abundance. However, the life of gilded cage is not for many people, especially when it comes with the additional cost of having to consider flying to be a disease.

[Rusozak]

I posted the source:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatl ... le/602551/
PRC affiliated sources were widely claiming a “silent majority” in Hong Kong would vote for Pro CCP candidates. They were wrong. Obviously the PRC is obviously not always that smart.
Again I admit Trump does stupid things, and the US government does stupid things. Can you just admit Xi and the CCP government do stupid things?

I do not like my current politicians in better and will push for new and better ones. That is something you cannot do.

Again this falls into incoherence, the English here is near unreadable in places.
But based on what I think you are saying while it is true Taiwan has to choose between the PRC or US support, it is false equivalency. And it is still a choice. And they have chosen to get US support and not be part of the PRC. The people of Taiwan could choose to join the PRC if they wanted.

And choosing the US still gives them more freedom. Sure obviously to get the US to support them they have to align their foreign policy to ours but the US has no desire to annex them and rule them. No interest in replacing their own government with one appointed by us or passing laws that make it illegal for people to criticize us.

They have a choice between much greater freedom and much less freedom. And they want the more freedom.

I admit that CCP government has many wrong decisions.The problem is that what I think is wrong is the opposite of what you think, which leads you to think that I think CCP is right.No, they are too slow and weak in dealing with Hong Kong.We generally hope that the Hong Kong Garrison will take action in November.Sorry, we can only see from the political demands of Hong Kong people that they want to break away from the rule of the CCP, be independent of China and be in the arms of the Western camp.They still don't understand that the premise of 1c2s is to support 1C.
We don't think the US wants to annex Taiwan.A place can't decide its own destiny only by local people.Independent? No way. Don't even think about it.America will not make Texas independent, Britain will not make sugra independent, Spain will not make Catalunya independent.
Freedom,great.We used to bleed for freedom and independence. You used to bleed for freedom and independence.Votes are really valuable only if they are won by resistance.It's ridiculous to have a guy like HK who's blowing the air conditioner in the market and making a revolution.Once again, I respect all the revolutionaries who really want freedom.In Hong Kong in the early 1980s, there were. Now, no

（he say:Because we are aboveboard）

I just don't see how it's justified in the minds of the people, for a nation born in violent revolution to use the same draconian measures once used against them by their former oppressors. I mean, I get why the CCP does it. Their goal is to remain in power. But do the people not see the irony there?

[Novus America]

I posted the source:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatl ... le/602551/
PRC affiliated sources were widely claiming a “silent majority” in Hong Kong would vote for Pro CCP candidates. They were wrong. Obviously the PRC is obviously not always that smart.
Again I admit Trump does stupid things, and the US government does stupid things. Can you just admit Xi and the CCP government do stupid things?

I do not like my current politicians in better and will push for new and better ones. That is something you cannot do.

Again this falls into incoherence, the English here is near unreadable in places.
But based on what I think you are saying while it is true Taiwan has to choose between the PRC or US support, it is false equivalency. And it is still a choice. And they have chosen to get US support and not be part of the PRC. The people of Taiwan could choose to join the PRC if they wanted.

And choosing the US still gives them more freedom. Sure obviously to get the US to support them they have to align their foreign policy to ours but the US has no desire to annex them and rule them. No interest in replacing their own government with one appointed by us or passing laws that make it illegal for people to criticize us.

They have a choice between much greater freedom and much less freedom. And they want the more freedom.

I admit that CCP government has many wrong decisions.The problem is that what I think is wrong is the opposite of what you think, which leads you to think that I think CCP is right.No, they are too slow and weak in dealing with Hong Kong.We generally hope that the Hong Kong Garrison will take action in November.Sorry, we can only see from the political demands of Hong Kong people that they want to break away from the rule of the CCP, be independent of China and be in the arms of the Western camp.They still don't understand that the premise of 1c2s is to support 1C.
We don't think the US wants to annex Taiwan.A place can't decide its own destiny only by local people.Independent? No way. Don't even think about it.America will not make Texas independent, Britain will not make sugra independent, Spain will not make Catalunya independent.
Freedom,great.We used to bleed for freedom and independence. You used to bleed for freedom and independence.Votes are really valuable only if they are won by resistance.It's ridiculous to have a guy like HK who's blowing the air conditioner in the market and making a revolution.Once again, I respect all the revolutionaries who really want freedom.In Hong Kong in the early 1980s, there were. Now, no

（he say:Because we are aboveboard）

I mean this is also incoherent and largely unreadable at the end but I want you to not just say the CCP has made bad decisions in the past but the its leadership today is still making them, that Xi is making bad decisions and you need new leaders. I am not afraid to say such things about the US.

But it seems you are saying you want the Hong Kong protestors crushed by military force.

Nice whataboutism by the way, but actually the UK granted many places independence from India to Nigeria. The US gave the Philippines independence. Because they wanted it.

Texas does not actually want independence but they are free to vote for a pro Independence Party if they wanted too. It is not illegal for them to do so.

But the issue is not independence in Hong Kong. The people of Hong Kong want autonomy not independence. Texas has great autonomy. Texas has its own laws, constitution, even military.
And the US government cannot just take them away.

Actually the people of Hong Kong would gladly accept a free and federal China. The US is relatively free and very federal. The PRC is neither.

Taiwan is different because the PRC never controlled Taiwan. That is like sting the US would not allow Canada to be independent but Canada is independent.

Sure no country can be truly independent in a connected world where some are more powerful than others, but it is not a Hobson’s choice. Aligning with the US allows Taiwan MORE independence than the PRC would ever allow.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Those who commit crimes in Hong Kong can be transferred to the United States and the United Kingdom. But it can't be transferred to the mainland and Taiwan. Why?What's your explanation for this
Do you think you manage yourself well?Are you fighting for freedom?So I ask you, how did the law that Lin was going to pass jeopardize your freedom?You're worried about the day when you're going to be charged with felony and sent to the mainland.Who will catch you,mainland police or HK police?

God it’s easy when one’s talking to a person swallowing the party line..

The extradition bill was devised because book sellers and businessmen were kidnapped illegally out of HK.

Booksellers?

Why?

They published books on Xi Jinping’s wealth, affairs and family wealth.

This raised international outcry, kidnapping people outside of your jurisdiction is wrong, so they created the Extradition Bill and waited for a Taiwan murder to enact it, so they could legally take dissenters out of HK without the international outcry over kidnap.

Taiwan rejected it, HK people rejected it, because Chinese law says no matter where you break law you can be tried on Chinese soil.

Now China, beyond illegal kidnapping, has broken 1C2S, international treaties, all for the baby protection of Xi Jinping.

The law was created by the CCP to massage Xi Jinping’s thin skin. Chinese people are punished for it. You don’t even know truth because you can’t be trusted with it by your own government, your own dear leader.

You know the CCP lies, and directs your media to lie. Why? Why can’t they trust you with the truth?

Truth is Xi Jinping and CCP are corrupt and interested only in their wealth and power, not you, even as you defend them.

US and UK have a degree of rule of law to protect its people from the government and police, China does not as every Uigher, dissenter or otherwise can tell you, just a ‘cup of tea’ with the police and disappear.

If they were kidnapped, what else would the law do?You have so much like this in mind. Why dare you come to the mainland?It's ridiculous. For Xi?Only you can think of such stupid reasons. Who do you think Xi is?A fat, incompetent fool?Even I know that as long as I tell this bookseller that their behavior may damage their business, they will withdraw.Please give me a good reason don't be so fake.If CCPs really want to take action, they have many ways, but they will not use such an inefficient way

[Novus America]

God it’s easy when one’s talking to a person swallowing the party line..

The extradition bill was devised because book sellers and businessmen were kidnapped illegally out of HK.

Booksellers?

Why?

They published books on Xi Jinping’s wealth, affairs and family wealth.

This raised international outcry, kidnapping people outside of your jurisdiction is wrong, so they created the Extradition Bill and waited for a Taiwan murder to enact it, so they could legally take dissenters out of HK without the international outcry over kidnap.

Taiwan rejected it, HK people rejected it, because Chinese law says no matter where you break law you can be tried on Chinese soil.

Now China, beyond illegal kidnapping, has broken 1C2S, international treaties, all for the baby protection of Xi Jinping.

The law was created by the CCP to massage Xi Jinping’s thin skin. Chinese people are punished for it. You don’t even know truth because you can’t be trusted with it by your own government, your own dear leader.

You know the CCP lies, and directs your media to lie. Why? Why can’t they trust you with the truth?

Truth is Xi Jinping and CCP are corrupt and interested only in their wealth and power, not you, even as you defend them.

US and UK have a degree of rule of law to protect its people from the government and police, China does not as every Uigher, dissenter or otherwise can tell you, just a ‘cup of tea’ with the police and disappear.

If they were kidnapped, what else would the law do?You have so much like this in mind. Why dare you come to the mainland?It's ridiculous. For Xi?Only you can think of such stupid reasons. Who do you think Xi is?A fat, incompetent fool?Even I know that as long as I tell this bookseller that their behavior may damage their business, they will withdraw.Please give me a good reason don't be so fake.If CCPs really want to take action, they have many ways, but they will not use such an inefficient way

This is very incoherent but yes sometimes Xi is a fool.
Not always but he makes many dumb decisions.
But I think you are asking why go through the extradition when you can just kidnap them? Fair point but one that hardly supports your cause, as it only shows the ORC has no due process. But presumably it is because they decided having the people arrested by Hong Kong police and extradited looks better than the kidnapping. Which is not actually all that easy.

And also because Xi is mentally unbalanced and makes stupid decisions sometimes yes.

[Bombadil]

God it’s easy when one’s talking to a person swallowing the party line..

The extradition bill was devised because book sellers and businessmen were kidnapped illegally out of HK.

Booksellers?

Why?

They published books on Xi Jinping’s wealth, affairs and family wealth.

This raised international outcry, kidnapping people outside of your jurisdiction is wrong, so they created the Extradition Bill and waited for a Taiwan murder to enact it, so they could legally take dissenters out of HK without the international outcry over kidnap.

Taiwan rejected it, HK people rejected it, because Chinese law says no matter where you break law you can be tried on Chinese soil.

Now China, beyond illegal kidnapping, has broken 1C2S, international treaties, all for the baby protection of Xi Jinping.

The law was created by the CCP to massage Xi Jinping’s thin skin. Chinese people are punished for it. You don’t even know truth because you can’t be trusted with it by your own government, your own dear leader.

You know the CCP lies, and directs your media to lie. Why? Why can’t they trust you with the truth?

Truth is Xi Jinping and CCP are corrupt and interested only in their wealth and power, not you, even as you defend them.

US and UK have a degree of rule of law to protect its people from the government and police, China does not as every Uigher, dissenter or otherwise can tell you, just a ‘cup of tea’ with the police and disappear.

If they were kidnapped, what else would the law do?You have so much like this in mind. Why dare you come to the mainland?It's ridiculous. For Xi?Only you can think of such stupid reasons. Who do you think Xi is?A fat, incompetent fool?Even I know that as long as I tell this bookseller that their behavior may damage their business, they will withdraw.Please give me a good reason don't be so fake.If CCPs really want to take action, they have many ways, but they will not use such an inefficient way

They will actually, because an order is given and incompetents carry it out because they don’t dare ask why, or how.. just execute.

The booksellers were making plenty of money, mostly from mainlanders, until they were illegally kidnapped.

Don’t be angry with me, be angry with your fat fool, as you term him, of a leader.

[Ethel mermania]

Foreign criticism may be often self interested by fear of criticism is still a sign of weakness not strength. Why should Xi care if a Basketball player says something about Hong Kong? His priorities are all screwed up.
Rather by trying to crack down on that he made people turn even more against the PRC.

See that is the thing, why care about a little criticism?

Good leaders do not fear outside criticism.

Taking actions against Australia only drives Australia further away from the PRC and more to the US. Actually I do not mind the PRC actions against Australia inasmuch as they actually BENEFIT the US!

See that is what Xi fails to see. We have a saying here, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Threats and vitriol against Australia, Taiwan and Japan only benefits the US.

The PRC needs to care about making friends with the West because like it or not the PRCs power comes from its connections to the Western economies.
The PRC May hate the West (although Ironically even Xi like the rest of the elite have no concerns sending their children to school here and stashing their billions here) but still the PRC needs the West. Hence why the PRC is in a trap. It wants to oppose the West yet needs the West to keep its economy going.

If China is friendly with the west, will the West stop its hostile behavior towards China?Impossible.No matter what China does, it will not get a good evaluation.The West now needs to take advantage of China to ease the funding gap.It can be seen from the requirements of the first edition of trade war given by the United States.There is a saying in China that "Holding firewood to fight the fire".The demand for hegemony will not stop until we are drained.China does not hate the West. China has studied the West for hundreds of years. What is the nature of the west? We know it very well

The west is not stupid. China's strength cannot be hidden.It's naive to think that China can avoid conflict by keeping a low profile now.Because there's something the government can't hide.

There is a difference between low profile and non belligerent profile. The two are not the same.

[Pogzdan]

China will be the Cause of World War 3, the CCP is at fault for most of the current situation, and their inability to accept correction will lead to the downfall of themselves, and others.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

I admit that CCP government has many wrong decisions.The problem is that what I think is wrong is the opposite of what you think, which leads you to think that I think CCP is right.No, they are too slow and weak in dealing with Hong Kong.We generally hope that the Hong Kong Garrison will take action in November.Sorry, we can only see from the political demands of Hong Kong people that they want to break away from the rule of the CCP, be independent of China and be in the arms of the Western camp.They still don't understand that the premise of 1c2s is to support 1C.
We don't think the US wants to annex Taiwan.A place can't decide its own destiny only by local people.Independent? No way. Don't even think about it.America will not make Texas independent, Britain will not make sugra independent, Spain will not make Catalunya independent.
Freedom,great.We used to bleed for freedom and independence. You used to bleed for freedom and independence.Votes are really valuable only if they are won by resistance.It's ridiculous to have a guy like HK who's blowing the air conditioner in the market and making a revolution.Once again, I respect all the revolutionaries who really want freedom.In Hong Kong in the early 1980s, there were. Now, no

（he say:Because we are aboveboard）

I mean this is also incoherent and largely unreadable at the end but I want you to not just say the CCP has made bad decisions in the past but the its leadership today is still making them, that Xi is making bad decisions and you need new leaders. I am not afraid to say such things about the US.

But it seems you are saying you want the Hong Kong protestors crushed by military force.

Nice whataboutism by the way, but actually the UK granted many places independence from India to Nigeria. The US gave the Philippines independence. Because they wanted it.

Texas does not actually want independence but they are free to vote for a pro Independence Party if they wanted too. It is not illegal for them to do so.

But the issue is not independence in Hong Kong. The people of Hong Kong want autonomy not independence. Texas has great autonomy. Texas has its own laws, constitution, even military.
And the US government cannot just take them away.

Actually the people of Hong Kong would gladly accept a free and federal China. The US is relatively free and very federal. The PRC is neither.

Taiwan is different because the PRC never controlled Taiwan. That is like sting the US would not allow Canada to be independent but Canada is independent.

Sure no country can be truly independent in a connected world where some are more powerful than others, but it is not a Hobson’s choice. Aligning with the US allows Taiwan MORE independence than the PRC would ever allow.

HK already has autonomy.They can make their own legislation, judiciary and administration.They don't have to pay taxes to the CCP.What else do they want?
America allows independence? The name of the civil war was anti slavery, but everyone knew it was anti secession.

[Bombadil]

It’s shown in the productivity quotas, people blow out electricity usage to meet them rather than tell the truth - even if Xi Jinping is smart he’s no better than a fat fool if the information he gets is purely made up to appease his baby thin skin.

[Novus America]

I mean this is also incoherent and largely unreadable at the end but I want you to not just say the CCP has made bad decisions in the past but the its leadership today is still making them, that Xi is making bad decisions and you need new leaders. I am not afraid to say such things about the US.

But it seems you are saying you want the Hong Kong protestors crushed by military force.

Nice whataboutism by the way, but actually the UK granted many places independence from India to Nigeria. The US gave the Philippines independence. Because they wanted it.

Texas does not actually want independence but they are free to vote for a pro Independence Party if they wanted too. It is not illegal for them to do so.

But the issue is not independence in Hong Kong. The people of Hong Kong want autonomy not independence. Texas has great autonomy. Texas has its own laws, constitution, even military.
And the US government cannot just take them away.

Actually the people of Hong Kong would gladly accept a free and federal China. The US is relatively free and very federal. The PRC is neither.

Taiwan is different because the PRC never controlled Taiwan. That is like sting the US would not allow Canada to be independent but Canada is independent.

Sure no country can be truly independent in a connected world where some are more powerful than others, but it is not a Hobson’s choice. Aligning with the US allows Taiwan MORE independence than the PRC would ever allow.

HK already has autonomy.They can make their own legislation, judiciary and administration.They don't have to pay taxes to the CCP.What else do they want?
America allows independence? The name of the civil war was anti slavery, but everyone knew it was anti secession.

What else do they want? They have made it quite clear:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.c ... ds-what-do

They really just want to keep their autonomy. Xi is trying to take it away, undermining their courts, rigging their elections and overriding their laws a whim.
They just want the autonomy they had before Xi started attacking it.
Oh and for their legislature to have free elections which admittedly they never had.

But Xi is the problem. Replace Xi with a more reasonable person and Hong Kong will calm down.

And again the US gave the Philippines independence: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Manila_(1946)

The complexities of the civil war are not the topic but suffice to say they never had free and fair elections to leave, and shot cannons at federal ships.
Also the already had full autonomy they had agreed to.

Hong Kong never chose to join the PRC, the US states all chose to join the US.

But nobody expects the PRC to give Hong Kong independence, and the protestors just want their five demands, not full independence.

Taiwan though again was never part of the PRC so it is completely different.
It is like Canada to the US. The US initially claimed Canada was ours, but we never controlled it and recognized its independence.

[Tuthina]

HK already has autonomy.They can make their own legislation, judiciary and administration.They don't have to pay taxes to the CCP.What else do they want?
America allows independence? The name of the civil war was anti slavery, but everyone knew it was anti secession.

What else do they want? They have made it quite clear:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.c ... ds-what-do

They really just want to keep their autonomy. Xi is trying to take it away, undermining their courts, rigging their elections and overriding their laws a whim.
They just want the autonomy they had before Xi started attacking it.
Oh and for their legislature to have free elections which admittedly they never had.

But Xi is the problem. Replace Xi with a more reasonable person and Hong Kong will calm down.

And again the US gave the Philippines independence: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Manila_(1946)

The complexities of the civil war are not the topic but suffice to say they never had free and fair elections to leave, and shot cannons at federal ships.
Also the already had full autonomy they had agreed to.

Hong Kong never chose to join the PRC, the US states all chose to join the US.

But nobody expects the PRC to give Hong Kong independence, and the protestors just want their five demands, not full independence.

Taiwan though again was never part of the PRC so it is completely different.
It is like Canada to the US. The US initially claimed Canada was ours, but we never controlled it and recognized its independence.

I would say pro-independence has become much more prominent nowadays, given that the actions of PRC and the SAR government have shown that becoming independent is about the only way those five demands can be reached. I would say it's something the government brought onto itself - in fact, it's actually kind of impressive that they managed to turn a people who were mostly apathetic into nascent revolutionaries within a year.

[Eikotomi]

For HK I think they already have a Basic Law, and a basic agreement with China that they will one country two systems, which I think it's only right to fulfill that entire basic law's framework in itself. The National Security legislation by the NPC at this point serves to fulfil Article 23 of Basic Law which the HK government has proven itself incapable of pushing through. I think that the necessity of the legislation coupled with the fact that in reality, the protestors have to understand that first, HK is part of China (unlike Taiwan), and that second, their demands for essentially many reversals to the One Country Two Systems policy have not necessarily created the best climate for any discussion (the NatSec Legislation was first attempted in 2003 to mass riots which again displays how there is no way for HK to get that law done and the NPC and CCP has to step in here). I do not endorse the turning of HK into another Chinese province, but all I want to see is a clear formalisation and completion of the 1997 agreement. After 2047, it would be my view that I think HK should continue its current status as an autonomous region with no need for further political integration.

[Tuthina]

For HK I think they already have a Basic Law, and a basic agreement with China that they will one country two systems, which I think it's only right to fulfill that entire basic law's framework in itself. The National Security legislation by the NPC at this point serves to fulfil Article 23 of Basic Law which the HK government has proven itself incapable of pushing through. I think that the necessity of the legislation coupled with the fact that in reality, the protestors have to understand that first, HK is part of China (unlike Taiwan), and that second, their demands for essentially many reversals to the One Country Two Systems policy have not necessarily created the best climate for any discussion (the NatSec Legislation was first attempted in 2003 to mass riots which again displays how there is no way for HK to get that law done and the NPC and CCP has to step in here). I do not endorse the turning of HK into another Chinese province, but all I want to see is a clear formalisation and completion of the 1997 agreement. After 2047, it would be my view that I think HK should continue its current status as an autonomous region with no need for further political integration.

Except that the protests in 2003 can hardly be considered riots, and even the 2019 protests had been mostly peaceful for months before the government decided to keep pushing for the amendment of the extradition law despite up to a million in the streets protesting about it, ultimately leading to the conflict on the day the bill was to be discussed in the legislature. The fact that the government had finally suspended it after the violent confrontation (and finally pulling it after months of fighting) is in itself a confirmation that it doesn't matter for them how many are protesting against it, only that how much force the protesters have. In that case, is it any surprise that the protests have been escalating? If anything, I would say that the protesters are still seriously outgunned by the police, who seem to be quite determined that they will be the one exercising violence and no one else.

[Eikotomi]

The thing is that the protestors have been blatantly damaging private property, maiming the police, not saying that the police are not using violence, but it takes two to clap. The reality of the matter is that Hong Kong belongs to China, and that to fulfil the agreement and enact the entirety of the Basic Law, there is a need for compromise which the protestors have shown no intent of doing.

The extradition bill itself was written so that extraditing of the Hong Kong murderer who fled back to HK after murdering someone in Taiwan would be able to face trial in Taiwan. However, because of the 1992 Consensus, any law written including Taiwan has to include China in its writing, so the reality is that unless you're saying that justice for a murder victim isn't that important, or that simply by using territoriality to escape justice is fine... I'm not quite certain that you're necessarily painting the anti extradition bill camp in a positive light.

The extradition bill did have its flaws, but the way to go about it was to negotiate, compromise, not to riot. Hong Kongers have shown that they are less willing to compromise peacefully and would rather take to the streets and demand illegal secession from China, when the reality of the matter was that Hong Kong is part of China, no questions no disputes. The protestors jeopardise HK's stability, its reputation, its innocents who get caught up, with numerous old people getting attacked by protestors after they told them to stop and just go home and not cause trouble for everyone, I think they have gone too far.

Hong Kong is a beautiful city, with beautiful culture, and great people. But, at this point, and at the rate these sorts of radical insurgents and rioters continue their dangerous moves, jeopardising order and attacking frontline policemen who are really, just doing their jobs (they aren't even that well paid for god's sake), the only thing for HK to realise is that because they tolerated these radicals, they have dug themselves a pit that they can't get out of anymore.

When 2047 comes, China will take back full control. I'm not looking forward, but I will say that it is more than likely that these actions have only pressed and solidified the will of the CCP to fully reclaim HK... and it's really thanks to these radicals... that that would be the first thing they try to do.

[Eikotomi]

By the way, I'm not endorsing the CCP, I really don't really like their conduct within the Mainland, but I'm just saying that the protestors really have gone too far to have any real ground for me to personally say, they have just reason to do what they're doing now.

[Tuthina]

The thing is that the protestors have been blatantly damaging private property, maiming the police, not saying that the police are not using violence, but it takes two to clap. The reality of the matter is that Hong Kong belongs to China, and that to fulfil the agreement and enact the entirety of the Basic Law, there is a need for compromise which the protestors have shown no intent of doing.

The extradition bill itself was written so that extraditing of the Hong Kong murderer who fled back to HK after murdering someone in Taiwan would be able to face trial in Taiwan. However, because of the 1992 Consensus, any law written including Taiwan has to include China in its writing, so the reality is that unless you're saying that justice for a murder victim isn't that important, or that simply by using territoriality to escape justice is fine... I'm not quite certain that you're necessarily painting the anti extradition bill camp in a positive light.

The extradition bill did have its flaws, but the way to go about it was to negotiate, compromise, not to riot. Hong Kongers have shown that they are less willing to compromise peacefully and would rather take to the streets and demand illegal secession from China, when the reality of the matter was that Hong Kong is part of China, no questions no disputes. The protestors jeopardise HK's stability, its reputation, its innocents who get caught up, with numerous old people getting attacked by protestors after they told them to stop and just go home and not cause trouble for everyone, I think they have gone too far.

Hong Kong is a beautiful city, with beautiful culture, and great people. But, at this point, and at the rate these sorts of radical insurgents and rioters continue their dangerous moves, jeopardising order and attacking frontline policemen who are really, just doing their jobs (they aren't even that well paid for god's sake), the only thing for HK to realise is that because they tolerated these radicals, they have dug themselves a pit that they can't get out of anymore.

When 2047 comes, China will take back full control. I'm not looking forward, but I will say that it is more than likely that these actions have only pressed and solidified the will of the CCP to fully reclaim HK... and it's really thanks to these radicals... that that would be the first thing they try to do.

I would say the one who is unwilling to negotiate and compromise is the government, who decided that the proper response to a million-strong march that had stayed mostly peaceful is to keep pushing the bill forward, knowing that the pro-Beijing faction can push it through. By that point, I'm not sure what compromise the protesters can make - just go home and let the government push through the bill, thus confirming that peaceful protests won't work?

Either way, it's a bit off the topic now. If you want to continue the discussion, there is a thread here dedicated to the ongoing situation of Hong Kong.

[Eikotomi]

Perhaps. I would say we probably agree to disagree, but one thing we might agree on is that China under Xi is well... not necessarily undergoing the best path for its people and its future, economically and socially

[Tuthina]

Perhaps. I would say we probably agree to disagree, but one thing we might agree on is that China under Xi is well... not necessarily undergoing the best path for its people and its future, economically and socially

Well, yeah, you probably won't find many here disagreeing with that barring a few users above. I suppose the best thing we can hope for (that is at least somewhat plausible) is that the wake of the coronavirus pandemic might provide enough pressure both within and without PRC to lead to a leadership change that is more flexible.

[-Astoria]

By the way, I'm not endorsing the CCP, I really don't really like their conduct within the Mainland, but I'm just saying that the protestors really have gone too far to have any real ground for me to personally say, they have just reason to do what they're doing now.

Something something "violence is resorted to when there are no more peaceful options".

[Rusozak]

By the way, I'm not endorsing the CCP, I really don't really like their conduct within the Mainland, but I'm just saying that the protestors really have gone too far to have any real ground for me to personally say, they have just reason to do what they're doing now.

Something something "violence is resorted to when there are no more peaceful options".

But the last thing they want to do is provoke hostility and give the army an excuse to use lethal force. Now, they may do that anyways, but preemptively tossing a couple Molotovs or assaulting troops isn't going to give any advantage. If you can show the world they are peacefully resisting and the PRC responds with another mass killing then you've just turned just about the entire world against China without a doubt in a way yet unseen. Peaceful resistance worked with Gandhi and MLK. Now, granted Hong Kong isn't dealing with the British Empire or American segregation. Being peaceful may not change the hearts and minds of the Chinese mainland. The CCP will just censor any atrocities it commits anyways. But if you get the entire world turned against China, they cannot succeed in the long run. China needs the trade and blessing of the international community more than it will admit. And they can't strong arm the entire world.

[Tuthina]

Something something "violence is resorted to when there are no more peaceful options".

But the last thing they want to do is provoke hostility and give the army an excuse to use lethal force. Now, they may do that anyways, but preemptively tossing a couple Molotovs or assaulting troops isn't going to give any advantage. If you can show the world they are peacefully resisting and the PRC responds with another mass killing then you've just turned just about the entire world against China without a doubt in a way yet unseen. Peaceful resistance worked with Gandhi and MLK. Now, granted Hong Kong isn't dealing with the British Empire or American segregation. Being peaceful may not change the hearts and minds of the Chinese mainland. The CCP will just censor any atrocities it commits anyways. But if you get the entire world turned against China, they cannot succeed in the long run. China needs the trade and blessing of the international community more than it will admit. And they can't strong arm the entire world.

Well, the police have been kicking the arse of reporters and first aid providers for months, despite them being neutral and not even really counting as participants of the protests (even if the police disagree), but they don't seem to garner much response from the international community, so I don't think the fully peaceful movement is going to work out well. Besides, even disregarding that we're dealing with a regime arguably even less morally concerned than the British Empire or pre-Civil Rights Movement USA, the peaceful approaches of Ghandi and MLK were also accompanied by the much more violent counterparts. That, combined with the fact that months of peaceful protest had resulted in not even the amendment bill being postponed in the first place, makes me rather doubtful that continuing a peaceful resistance would yield anything - though that does not stop many of us from going through the more peaceful means of protests like boycotting pro-government establishments.

Either way, I feel this is getting off-topic. If you want to continue the discussion, there is a thread here dedicated to the current ongoing of Hong Kong.