NationStates

USS Monitor wrote:

Bombadil wrote:
As long as you're the right sort of Chinese you're fine.. ethnically, behaviourally and politically.

Right, but a lot of people are the right sort, or close enough to fudge it. When I lived over there, I met a lot of people that got a little annoyed at all the red tape or people who were disappointed that they couldn't have a more democratic system, but I didn't meet many people that were really angry or miserable.

There was a Uighur guy from Xinjiang that I met on a bus who got pissed off because everyone was gossiping trying to guess his nationality (since he didn't look ethnically Chinese). Maybe that guy gets pissed off enough that someone could recruit him for a rebellion. Or maybe not. I think he wanted people to accept him as Chinese more than anything else.

I still feel bad for that guy, and treating the Uighurs better is one of the biggest things I wish China would change.

Ethel mermania wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
It makes sense that the Hong Kong government would be arresting and prosecuting those who have broken the law during this time.

I think the Hong Kong and Chinese governments are fine with people expressing disapproval on the streets (in legal, approved protests), just not when they escalate and use violent means (ex storming the legislature, smashing train stations, throw things, assault the police and civilians). Those who do so and harm ordinary people should be arrested and prosecuted in accordance with the right process.

If the protests do resume in June, I am hoping (and I think it is very likely) that the most violent protestors will have been arrested. A more peaceful protest movement may replace it, allowing China and Hong Kong to function better so that the people can go to work and school as normal. I think that would be a massive improvement over the events of last year.

There may be a degree of disapproval towards the government, but the supply of radicals willing to attack the police, attack train stations, burn things, and attack people is limited. We've already seen a massive reduction in violence after the Polyu arrests even before COVID started. I do believe that China is exercising restraint, caution, and sound strategy here in mainly arresting the leaders/organizers of violence and the most violent protestors. It shows that you are dealing with a very reasonable government that's interested in law and order.

MEIN FUHRER I CAN WALK

Australian rePublic wrote:I don't see how any regime could get much worse.

What do you guys think?

USS Monitor wrote:

Bombadil wrote:
As long as you're the right sort of Chinese you're fine.. ethnically, behaviourally and politically.

Right, but a lot of people are the right sort, or close enough to fudge it. When I lived over there, I met a lot of people that got a little annoyed at all the red tape or people who were disappointed that they couldn't have a more democratic system, but I didn't meet many people that were really angry or miserable.

There was a Uighur guy from Xinjiang that I met on a bus who got pissed off because everyone was gossiping trying to guess his nationality (since he didn't look ethnically Chinese). Maybe that guy gets pissed off enough that someone could recruit him for a rebellion. Or maybe not. I think he wanted people to accept him as Chinese more than anything else.

I still feel bad for that guy, and treating the Uighurs better is one of the biggest things I wish China would change.

Samudera Darussalam wrote:

USS Monitor wrote:
Right, but a lot of people are the right sort, or close enough to fudge it. When I lived over there, I met a lot of people that got a little annoyed at all the red tape or people who were disappointed that they couldn't have a more democratic system, but I didn't meet many people that were really angry or miserable.

There was a Uighur guy from Xinjiang that I met on a bus who got pissed off because everyone was gossiping trying to guess his nationality (since he didn't look ethnically Chinese). Maybe that guy gets pissed off enough that someone could recruit him for a rebellion. Or maybe not. I think he wanted people to accept him as Chinese more than anything else.

I still feel bad for that guy, and treating the Uighurs better is one of the biggest things I wish China would change.

Ah, indeed that must be suck to be that man. Though....the way you wrote, "since he didn't look ethnically Chinese" mean doesn't looking similar to Han Chinese? Though it maybe a bit hypocritical of mine, that makes me wonder if Chinese civilians in general are unaware how Uyghurs look or are they like to speculate that an Uyghur must be associated with the violence in Xinjiang?

Bombadil wrote:

USS Monitor wrote:
Right, but a lot of people are the right sort, or close enough to fudge it. When I lived over there, I met a lot of people that got a little annoyed at all the red tape or people who were disappointed that they couldn't have a more democratic system, but I didn't meet many people that were really angry or miserable.

There was a Uighur guy from Xinjiang that I met on a bus who got pissed off because everyone was gossiping trying to guess his nationality (since he didn't look ethnically Chinese). Maybe that guy gets pissed off enough that someone could recruit him for a rebellion. Or maybe not. I think he wanted people to accept him as Chinese more than anything else.

I still feel bad for that guy, and treating the Uighurs better is one of the biggest things I wish China would change.

What people in China think can lay very deep under the surface. It was over a year before my Chinese teacher whispered to ask if I knew about Tiananmen, turns out he was there at the time. He was in the square.

One thing that struck me was that he wasn't aware the rest of the world knew about it, it was covered up to such a degree in China many weren't aware the rest of the world knew all about it.

It can also be complicated, naturally no one wants to hear negative things about their country and there's very deep feelings around China, it's place in the world and the iniquities of history, but they can hold that thought while still very much disliking the CCP.

That's why the CCP tries to essentially equate themselves as China, CCP is China and China is the CCP.

Take Article 23, it outlaws any sedition or treason against the CCP, not China, not the Chinese people, specifically the CCP.

I think that the CCP's days are numbered. The CCP was already struggling to hold on to Hong Kong, and I saw a state-run propaganda program implying that they may have conceded defeat on that front. Countries that used to kiss-up to China are now really getting the shits with the way they've handled Covid-19. Lay people, who were ignorant to the CCP's scumminess have no woken up to the scumminess, thanks to Covid-19 Combine all this with the fact that most modern-day totalitarian regimes have a life expectancy of approx. 70 years and China has just reached that milestone, I think that it's the beginning of the end of the CCP's reign of terror. I just hope that whatever replaces them is better. I would say that I hope that they're not worse, but from the oppression of ethnic minorities to the disgusting social credit score system, to the debt traps set by the Belt and Road initiative, to bullying neighbors in the South China Sea, to actively going of their way to avoid preventing a deadly to spread globally, I don't see how any regime could get much worse.

What do you guys think?

The Korani wrote:

I think that the CCP's days are numbered. The CCP was already struggling to hold on to Hong Kong, and I saw a state-run propaganda program implying that they may have conceded defeat on that front. Countries that used to kiss-up to China are now really getting the shits with the way they've handled Covid-19. Lay people, who were ignorant to the CCP's scumminess have no woken up to the scumminess, thanks to Covid-19 Combine all this with the fact that most modern-day totalitarian regimes have a life expectancy of approx. 70 years and China has just reached that milestone, I think that it's the beginning of the end of the CCP's reign of terror. I just hope that whatever replaces them is better. I would say that I hope that they're not worse, but from the oppression of ethnic minorities to the disgusting social credit score system, to the debt traps set by the Belt and Road initiative, to bullying neighbors in the South China Sea, to actively going of their way to avoid preventing a deadly to spread globally, I don't see how any regime could get much worse.

What do you guys think?

I think the same as you. The CCP has reached its death limit, and the government will be better. But the question: What will take over?

I think that some regions might get their independence, like Tibet, some regions will join countries, like Inner Mongolia, and Taiwan will take over the rest and become the true China. Seeing as they already claim all of China entirely, there's no debating that. I think that the US, after China collapsing, would recognize Taiwan as the true China, as before that the CCP would start a new cold war eventually if they recognized it earlier. I think that, if China doesn't just collapse, a civil war will decide it's fate. It would probably originate from Capitalist demonstrations near Hong Kong, which would spread to the mainland south, starting the civil war as many would turn to that idea. What do you think about this?

The Korani wrote:

I think that the CCP's days are numbered. The CCP was already struggling to hold on to Hong Kong, and I saw a state-run propaganda program implying that they may have conceded defeat on that front. Countries that used to kiss-up to China are now really getting the shits with the way they've handled Covid-19. Lay people, who were ignorant to the CCP's scumminess have no woken up to the scumminess, thanks to Covid-19 Combine all this with the fact that most modern-day totalitarian regimes have a life expectancy of approx. 70 years and China has just reached that milestone, I think that it's the beginning of the end of the CCP's reign of terror. I just hope that whatever replaces them is better. I would say that I hope that they're not worse, but from the oppression of ethnic minorities to the disgusting social credit score system, to the debt traps set by the Belt and Road initiative, to bullying neighbors in the South China Sea, to actively going of their way to avoid preventing a deadly to spread globally, I don't see how any regime could get much worse.

What do you guys think?

I think the same as you. The CCP has reached its death limit, and the government will be better. But the question: What will take over?

I think that some regions might get their independence, like Tibet, some regions will join countries, like Inner Mongolia, and Taiwan will take over the rest and become the true China. Seeing as they already claim all of China entirely, there's no debating that. I think that the US, after China collapsing, would recognize Taiwan as the true China, as before that the CCP would start a new cold war eventually if they recognized it earlier. I think that, if China doesn't just collapse, a civil war will decide it's fate. It would probably originate from Capitalist demonstrations near Hong Kong, which would spread to the mainland south, starting the civil war as many would turn to that idea. What do you think about this?

Ethel mermania wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
It makes sense that the Hong Kong government would be arresting and prosecuting those who have broken the law during this time.

I think the Hong Kong and Chinese governments are fine with people expressing disapproval on the streets (in legal, approved protests), just not when they escalate and use violent means (ex storming the legislature, smashing train stations, throw things, assault the police and civilians). Those who do so and harm ordinary people should be arrested and prosecuted in accordance with the right process.

If the protests do resume in June, I am hoping (and I think it is very likely) that the most violent protestors will have been arrested. A more peaceful protest movement may replace it, allowing China and Hong Kong to function better so that the people can go to work and school as normal. I think that would be a massive improvement over the events of last year.

There may be a degree of disapproval towards the government, but the supply of radicals willing to attack the police, attack train stations, burn things, and attack people is limited. We've already seen a massive reduction in violence after the Polyu arrests even before COVID started. I do believe that China is exercising restraint, caution, and sound strategy here in mainly arresting the leaders/organizers of violence and the most violent protestors. It shows that you are dealing with a very reasonable government that's interested in law and order.

MEIN FUHRER I CAN WALK

Aikoriland wrote:

Ethel mermania wrote:

MEIN FUHRER I CAN WALK

I think this explains Infected Mushroom's arguments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

USS Monitor wrote:

Aikoriland wrote:
I think this explains Infected Mushroom's arguments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

He's had a weird authoritarian fetish since before he moved to Hong Kong. He'd post that stuff even if they aren't paying him.

Bombadil wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:China's perfectly fine.

There's nothing really all that threatening to the Chinese system. If anything, I believe the next few decades will see increased economic leadership under the People's Republic.

China continues to be the world's number one manufacturer, it has the world's largest population, one of the highest GDPs, and the vast majority of the Chinese people seem content with the government's rule.

I look forward to the future once COVID and the protests die down. I think things will return to normal.

Sorry to inform you the protests will kick off again in June given the anniversaries of 6/4 and 6/21, hence why they've been pushing to implement Article 23 and arresting 18 pro-democracy leaders.

China's coming down hard on HK, and it will only serve to kick things off again.

Aikoriland wrote:

Ethel mermania wrote:

MEIN FUHRER I CAN WALK

I think this explains Infected Mushroom's arguments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:

Bombadil wrote:
Sorry to inform you the protests will kick off again in June given the anniversaries of 6/4 and 6/21, hence why they've been pushing to implement Article 23 and arresting 18 pro-democracy leaders.

China's coming down hard on HK, and it will only serve to kick things off again.

Article 23 cannot be passed by the Hong Kong Council.But it is in the best interests of the CCP of China to do nothing now.Because as long as they do not accept the conditions of the Hong Kong opposition, the incident will continue to escalate.The official definition of the incident in mainland China is that the United States is trying to subvert the Chinese Communist Party. It can be used to crack down on the Western faction within the government.And mass bloodshed is a good excuse to abolish Hong Kong SAR.It can be said that now everyone wants things to escalate, except for the Hong Kong Government.
Last year, the Chinese Communist Party faced the problem of economic weakness. Hong Kong's affairs and the poor performance of the western government can be said to have helped them a lot.Because of these two things, the support of the CPC in China is now unprecedented

Bombadil wrote:

USS Monitor wrote:
Right, but a lot of people are the right sort, or close enough to fudge it. When I lived over there, I met a lot of people that got a little annoyed at all the red tape or people who were disappointed that they couldn't have a more democratic system, but I didn't meet many people that were really angry or miserable.

There was a Uighur guy from Xinjiang that I met on a bus who got pissed off because everyone was gossiping trying to guess his nationality (since he didn't look ethnically Chinese). Maybe that guy gets pissed off enough that someone could recruit him for a rebellion. Or maybe not. I think he wanted people to accept him as Chinese more than anything else.

I still feel bad for that guy, and treating the Uighurs better is one of the biggest things I wish China would change.

What people in China think can lay very deep under the surface. It was over a year before my Chinese teacher whispered to ask if I knew about Tiananmen, turns out he was there at the time. He was in the square.

One thing that struck me was that he wasn't aware the rest of the world knew about it, it was covered up to such a degree in China many weren't aware the rest of the world knew all about it.

It can also be complicated, naturally no one wants to hear negative things about their country and there's very deep feelings around China, it's place in the world and the iniquities of history, but they can hold that thought while still very much disliking the CCP.

That's why the CCP tries to essentially equate themselves as China, CCP is China and China is the CCP.

Take Article 23, it outlaws any sedition or treason against the CCP, not China, not the Chinese people, specifically the CCP.

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:
Article 23 cannot be passed by the Hong Kong Council.But it is in the best interests of the CCP of China to do nothing now.Because as long as they do not accept the conditions of the Hong Kong opposition, the incident will continue to escalate.The official definition of the incident in mainland China is that the United States is trying to subvert the Chinese Communist Party. It can be used to crack down on the Western faction within the government.And mass bloodshed is a good excuse to abolish Hong Kong SAR.It can be said that now everyone wants things to escalate, except for the Hong Kong Government.
Last year, the Chinese Communist Party faced the problem of economic weakness. Hong Kong's affairs and the poor performance of the western government can be said to have helped them a lot.Because of these two things, the support of the CPC in China is now unprecedented

so you're saying that if the PRC does nothing? They will continue to win?

Pilipinas and Malaya wrote:

Bombadil wrote:
What people in China think can lay very deep under the surface. It was over a year before my Chinese teacher whispered to ask if I knew about Tiananmen, turns out he was there at the time. He was in the square.

One thing that struck me was that he wasn't aware the rest of the world knew about it, it was covered up to such a degree in China many weren't aware the rest of the world knew all about it.

It can also be complicated, naturally no one wants to hear negative things about their country and there's very deep feelings around China, it's place in the world and the iniquities of history, but they can hold that thought while still very much disliking the CCP.

That's why the CCP tries to essentially equate themselves as China, CCP is China and China is the CCP.

Take Article 23, it outlaws any sedition or treason against the CCP, not China, not the Chinese people, specifically the CCP.

I have a particular feeling that anti-CCP sentiment is growing within China, especially after the wave of posts on Chinese socials about government handling of COVID and HK stuff. It may grow even more online after China banned multiplayer video games.

For China's future, I do hope that the ROC can eventually retake China if it collapses. And maybe even Uighur and Tibetan independence. But that seems further and further from reality, especially after the power consolidation Xi is trying to do.

Sundiata wrote:

Pilipinas and Malaya wrote:
I have a particular feeling that anti-CCP sentiment is growing within China, especially after the wave of posts on Chinese socials about government handling of COVID and HK stuff. It may grow even more online after China banned multiplayer video games.

For China's future, I do hope that the ROC can eventually retake China if it collapses. And maybe even Uighur and Tibetan independence. But that seems further and further from reality, especially after the power consolidation Xi is trying to do.

Ultimately, the collapse of the Chinese government is not a collapse of the CCP. For that to happen, it's got to happen internally. The Chinese people need to a transcendent metaphysic to overcome the communist culture of death.

Sundiata wrote:

Pilipinas and Malaya wrote:
I have a particular feeling that anti-CCP sentiment is growing within China, especially after the wave of posts on Chinese socials about government handling of COVID and HK stuff. It may grow even more online after China banned multiplayer video games.

For China's future, I do hope that the ROC can eventually retake China if it collapses. And maybe even Uighur and Tibetan independence. But that seems further and further from reality, especially after the power consolidation Xi is trying to do.

Ultimately, the collapse of the Chinese government is not a collapse of the CCP. For that to happen, it's got to happen internally. The Chinese people need to a transcendent metaphysic to overcome the communist culture of death.

Samudera Darussalam wrote:

Sundiata wrote:Ultimately, the collapse of the Chinese government is not a collapse of the CCP. For that to happen, it's got to happen internally. The Chinese people need to a transcendent metaphysic to overcome the communist culture of death.

Uhh, 'transcendent metaphysic'? Please explain?

Pilipinas and Malaya wrote:

Bombadil wrote:
What people in China think can lay very deep under the surface. It was over a year before my Chinese teacher whispered to ask if I knew about Tiananmen, turns out he was there at the time. He was in the square.

One thing that struck me was that he wasn't aware the rest of the world knew about it, it was covered up to such a degree in China many weren't aware the rest of the world knew all about it.

It can also be complicated, naturally no one wants to hear negative things about their country and there's very deep feelings around China, it's place in the world and the iniquities of history, but they can hold that thought while still very much disliking the CCP.

That's why the CCP tries to essentially equate themselves as China, CCP is China and China is the CCP.

Take Article 23, it outlaws any sedition or treason against the CCP, not China, not the Chinese people, specifically the CCP.

I have a particular feeling that anti-CCP sentiment is growing within China, especially after the wave of posts on Chinese socials about government handling of COVID and HK stuff. It may grow even more online after China banned multiplayer video games.

For China's future, I do hope that the ROC can eventually retake China if it collapses. And maybe even Uighur and Tibetan independence. But that seems further and further from reality, especially after the power consolidation Xi is trying to do.

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:

Pilipinas and Malaya wrote:
I have a particular feeling that anti-CCP sentiment is growing within China, especially after the wave of posts on Chinese socials about government handling of COVID and HK stuff. It may grow even more online after China banned multiplayer video games.

For China's future, I do hope that the ROC can eventually retake China if it collapses. And maybe even Uighur and Tibetan independence. But that seems further and further from reality, especially after the power consolidation Xi is trying to do.

Even if the Qing Dynasty came back, Xinjiang and Tibet would not be independent.Stop dreaming.The ROC drew eleven lines. According to that map, China will occupy more land in the South China Sea than it does today.Why do you all hope for the ROC？

Sundiata wrote:

Samudera Darussalam wrote:Uhh, 'transcendent metaphysic'? Please explain?

The prevailing Maoist cultural ethos is deeply rooted in materialist metaphysics. Beating the CCP isn't as simple as sanctions or revolution. Beating the CCP requires a new way of thinking about the world, a new sense of what the world is. The Maoist doctrine of the world presumes that the world simply is solid substance and stops there. That kind of materialism is not conducive to a culture that generates or sustains life. The CCP needs a drastic philosophical shift away from Marx and towards Aquinas. But more broadly, they need Christ.

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:

Sundiata wrote:The prevailing Maoist cultural ethos is deeply rooted in materialist metaphysics. Beating the CCP isn't as simple as sanctions or revolution. Beating the CCP requires a new way of thinking about the world, a new sense of what the world is. The Maoist doctrine of the world presumes that the world simply is solid substance and stops there. That kind of materialism is not conducive to a culture that generates or sustains life. The CCP needs a drastic philosophical shift away from Marx and towards Aquinas. But more broadly, they need Christ.

I hope you don't get angry when you see Christianity in China.In fact, there are many people who believe in Christianity in China. It's just that they don't understand the doctrines as much as you do（They think If you believe in God, you have money）