RWDT XX: The System Is Kapp Putsch

[The East Marches II]

Me * an IRL soldier looking to get a promotion and maybe a commendation coin *: Son, have I got a place for you! Do you like guns, the smell of taint, and free college?

The Army is a great place for people like that, but I'm talking about the people who for whatever reason aren't going to go and join up

How would you structure it?

[The East Marches II]

Is there a realistic alternative? Maybe we should have done something different in the past, not gotten involved in some war or whatever; but we are here now, and there is no undoing history. If the United States were to retreat from it's position as the world police, then other nations would surge in to try and fill that gap - most concerning, our enemies.

Maybe America as an Empire isn't the best possible outcome, but it's the world we live in. Certainly, from this American's standpoint - it's far better that we run the show, then letting our enemies. The Rubicon has been crossed, and there is no going back to the Republic now. Embrace imperium, Embrace Pax Americana

Well short of dismantling the military industrial complex and giving up all faustian ambitions towards Imperium that are slumbering, no not really. This course has been set ever since World War II. And to pick up the analogy from the previous post, the ring has it's own mind. It always wants to return to his master.

In this case it means also that the American Empire would in the end ultimatively loose its last connections to the christian and constitional past and become something else.

It is a pity Mr. Paul failed in his quest.

[Novus America]

And what are you doing to change your country for the better then?

lol, criticism of your country invokes such a harsh response.

I'm not the only person with strong opinions on this thread, and yet — the only person to invite such questions (and such other comments as can be found on prior pages.)

What can any person do to make their country better, except work hard, pay their taxes, help their friends, remember their heritage, and follow the law?

I tried politics in real life. It didn't work out. Maybe there will be a way in the future. But patience here is a virtue.

A smart man once said you have to put your house in order before you start righting the world. I think that's right and I have a lot of work to do to improve my position before I can start working on my community in general, but I have plans for that.

Does it surprise you your extreme hostility to the US invokes a negative response from Americans?
The problem is not that you criticize the US, we all do, but that you are more offering invective over constructive criticism.

And that man was not actually smart. If you wait to make your own house perfect before you try to change the world you will never try to change the world.

You can try to improve both your house an the world, (and a house is an ongoing project that is never complete anyways). And you have to. Because what happens in the outside world affects your house. What is the point of putting you house “in order” (again a silly conceit, it is an aspirational goal but one you never actually achieve, houses are never completely in order and needs constant repairs, improvements and updates) if a wildfire wipes out your whole neighborhood?

Putting your house “in order” while ignoring the wildfire is pure folly.

[Joohan]

Me * an IRL soldier looking to get a promotion and maybe a commendation coin *: Son, have I got a place for you! Do you like guns, the smell of taint, and free college?

The Army is a great place for people like that, but I'm talking about the people who for whatever reason aren't going to go and join up

Me * passing you a draft notice *: Don't worry, you've been automatically volunteered by your congressional representatives.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

The Army is a great place for people like that, but I'm talking about the people who for whatever reason aren't going to go and join up

How would you structure it?

Broadly, I think these people really need a lot of stuff done for them. They're not that lazy or incompetent but you have to literally pick them up and haul them from their bed at the right time and throw them into work.

I think the beta test version would be simple just a dormitory where these people can stay for free and by the time they leave they have a job and theyre waking up every day to go to it, they're washing their clothes and brushing their teeth, they're cooking food and being smart with their money. I'm a big believer in carrot and stick and I think somehow the process needs some of that but most of all you need constant positive reinforcement and being in a big group of people and seeing them all doing the same thing as you is really important as well.

[Albrenia]

In this case it means also that the American Empire would in the end ultimatively loose its last connections to the christian and constitional past and become something else.

Not sure it would have to give up its Christianity to embrace Empire, considering the British Empire it birthed was also christian, as were a number of other Empires.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

Does it surprise you your extreme hostility to the US invokes a negative response from Americans?
The problem is not that you criticize the US, we all do, but that you are more offering invective over constructive criticism.

Is it shocking to you that constant invective from Americans about the rest of the world provokes a response?

And that man was not actually smart. If you wait to make your own house perfect before you try to change the world you will never try to change the world.

You can try to improve both your house an the world, (and a house is an ongoing project that is never complete anyways). And you have to. Because what happens in the outside world affects your house. What is the point of putting you house “in order” (again a silly conceit, it is an aspirational goal but one you never actually achieve, houses are never completely in order and needs constant repairs, improvements and updates) if a wildfire wipes out your whole neighborhood?

Putting your house “in order” while ignoring the wildfire is pure folly.

No, he was very smart.

You can not skip out steps on the maslow hierarchy. You gotta go up that thing point by point. If you are starving you can't give food to others, if you have no home you can't give shelter to others.

[Nakena]

In this case it means also that the American Empire would in the end ultimatively loose its last connections to the christian and constitional past and become something else.

Not sure it would have to give up its Christianity to embrace Empire, considering the British Empire it birthed was also christian, as were a number of other Empires.

The only way to preserve the USA as the nation as it was intended by the Founding Fathers would be giving up imperial ambitions. Because those imperial ambitions (or metaphorically: The Ring it picked from Nazi-Germany) ultimatively corrupt. Have been ever since World War II.

Of course some would welcome this development...

Besides, do you know who came up with the term of British Empire? ^^

[Northern Davincia]

Well short of dismantling the military industrial complex and giving up all faustian ambitions towards Imperium that are slumbering, no not really. This course has been set ever since World War II. And to pick up the analogy from the previous post, the ring has it's own mind. It always wants to return to his master.

In this case it means also that the American Empire would in the end ultimatively loose its last connections to the christian and constitional past and become something else.

It is a pity Mr. Paul failed in his quest.

He could have saved us.

[Novus America]

Your country is very much invested in your system of government, your monarchy being a key part of your identity.

lmao

An you think your heritage is not symbols? What is a war memorial if not a symbol? Symbols are a key part of all identities. But again we can radically change our system without the symbols. Which are more flexible then you think. The current incarnation of the US flag is from 1960 (funny thing here, often foreign depictions of the US in WWII show the 1960 flag).

Ideas and symbols have power. Just because ours are not identical (but you have some very similar ones) does not mean yours are inherently superior.

Symbols have to represent something meaningful before they achieve any meaning, otherwise they are just forced memes.

You problem is you simply do not understand much about the US.

Sometimes being on the outside looking in is the superior place for observation

Sometimes being on the outside looking in can be useful. But often you will have very little idea what goes on inside because you only see the outside of the building.

Ours symbols do mean something to us obviously.

Also I think it a tad ironic you are criticizing our country for not having enough to hold it together given the secessionist movement in Scotland is far stronger than any we have here.
So clearly your “common heritage is not enough, at least for some 45% of Scots.

So maybe you do need more “forced memes”. Memes have power.

[Nakena]

It is a pity Mr. Paul failed in his quest.

He could have saved us.

I unironically believe he may have been the last chance for some things. He's gone. But the future isn't set in stone. Theres no necessarity that things develop towards a specific ends even if a tendency exists.

[The East Marches II]

How would you structure it?

Broadly, I think these people really need a lot of stuff done for them. They're not that lazy or incompetent but you have to literally pick them up and haul them from their bed at the right time and throw them into work.

I think the beta test version would be simple just a dormitory where these people can stay for free and by the time they leave they have a job and theyre waking up every day to go to it, they're washing their clothes and brushing their teeth, they're cooking food and being smart with their money. I'm a big believer in carrot and stick and I think somehow the process needs some of that but most of all you need constant positive reinforcement and being in a big group of people and seeing them all doing the same thing as you is really important as well.

I wish you the best. You'd be surprised at how many young men I know who can't budget or don't know how to handle basic finances. This is a great (and I think intentional) failing.

[Joohan]

Is there a realistic alternative? Maybe we should have done something different in the past, not gotten involved in some war or whatever; but we are here now, and there is no undoing history. If the United States were to retreat from it's position as the world police, then other nations would surge in to try and fill that gap - most concerning, our enemies.

Maybe America as an Empire isn't the best possible outcome, but it's the world we live in. Certainly, from this American's standpoint - it's far better that we run the show, then letting our enemies. The Rubicon has been crossed, and there is no going back to the Republic now. Embrace imperium, Embrace Pax Americana

Well short of dismantling the military industrial complex and giving up all faustian ambitions towards Imperium that are slumbering, no not really. This course has been set ever since World War II. And to pick up the analogy from the previous post, the ring has it's own mind. It always wants to return to his master.

In this case it means also that the American Empire would in the end ultimatively loose its last connections to the christian and constitional past and become something else.

I wouldn't say that's realistic at all though. If America retreats from the world, our enemies will destroy us. We are an effective world police, we have made the world an objectively safer place. I don't like the fact that we have to kick every door of every bad guy on the planet - but I know that we have made far too many enemies to stop.

Our cultural and political progression away from what the founding fathers had envisioned was inevitable - to try and turn back the clock is an illusion of reactionaries and the ignorant. America's future is going to be characterized by it's own self image as an Empire - right now, it's a frustrated, materialistic, and bordering nihilistic state, were in yes I would say we are doomed to destruction should we not change.

I should hope though, that there are still enough morally upright and idealistic people who can look past the current state, and willfully bring about a more benign state of affairs.

philosopher-king Baron Trump 2035...

[Novus America]

Does it surprise you your extreme hostility to the US invokes a negative response from Americans?
The problem is not that you criticize the US, we all do, but that you are more offering invective over constructive criticism.

Is it shocking to you that constant invective from Americans about the rest of the world provokes a response?

And that man was not actually smart. If you wait to make your own house perfect before you try to change the world you will never try to change the world.

You can try to improve both your house an the world, (and a house is an ongoing project that is never complete anyways). And you have to. Because what happens in the outside world affects your house. What is the point of putting you house “in order” (again a silly conceit, it is an aspirational goal but one you never actually achieve, houses are never completely in order and needs constant repairs, improvements and updates) if a wildfire wipes out your whole neighborhood?

Putting your house “in order” while ignoring the wildfire is pure folly.

No, he was very smart.

You can not skip out steps on the maslow hierarchy. You gotta go up that thing point by point. If you are starving you can't give food to others, if you have no home you can't give shelter to others.

Again I am not sure why you think everything outside the US is the PRC
Actually the majority of countries in the world probably have not even been mentioned on this thread.

But sure, I understand why we often invoke hostility. That is is the difference.
I say “you do x” and all you say is “but you do x”.
But if you say I do x, well I do not always deny it, quite often I will admit I do x and should do better.

Why do you resort to whataboutism? The fact Americans do something wrong does not mean you are not doing something wrong. If Joe Smith calls Jim Brown a murderer then Jim Brown says Joe Smith is a bank robber, you know both could be right.
And both therefore criminals.

And no, again what happens in the outside world can destroy your house utterly.
Again why “put your house in order” if a wildfire is sweeping your whole county? And again a house is a project without end. If you wait to get your house perfect you are waiting forever.

You can do more than one thing at least once. The assumption you must be perfect at one thing to try another thing just means you will never get anywhere.

[Proctopeo]

Even when it was a backwater it was still aggressive.
And why cannot we have the 7th Fleet in the region? It is perfectly legal and valid for us to do so.

If China put two supercarrier groups off the Pacific coast, our defense officials would go ape and you know it.

...you do realize that we have territory in the West Pacific (Guam and the North Mariana Islands), while China doesn't have any territory in the East Pacific, right? Unless they've massively expanded their land reclamation activities.
Very different type of situation because of that.

On a tangential note, what's everybody's opinions on Hong Kong, East Turkestan, Tibet, and the 1989 Tienanmen Square protests?

[The East Marches II]

If China put two supercarrier groups off the Pacific coast, our defense officials would go ape and you know it.

...you do realize that we have territory in the West Pacific (Guam and the North Mariana Islands), while China doesn't have any territory in the East Pacific, right? Unless they've massively expanded their land reclamation activities.
Very different type of situation because of that.

On a tangential note, what's everybody's opinions on Hong Kong, East Turkestan, Tibet, and the 1989 Tienanmen Square protests?

TURAN NOW. LIBERATE MY TURKLAR BROTHERS

[Fahran]

Maybe not in name, but what do you do to oppose your government's war crimes? Nothing. All actions the government carries out are authored by us, the american people.

In so far as I have a voice, I may criticize policies I find abhorrent and morally feckless. I still find the option of capitulating to a foreign regime, one no less problematic than our own, detestable, more especially because the voice I have would be muted under the bullying bulk of the absolute state. You're narrowing the focus when we have enemies without and within. We cannot afford to ignore any of them.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Turanism is unfathomably based.

[Fahran]

Me * an IRL soldier looking to get a promotion and maybe a commendation coin *: Son, have I got a place for you! Do you like guns, the smell of taint, and free college?

The Army is a great place for people like that, but I'm talking about the people who for whatever reason aren't going to go and join up

With military conscription, anything is possible, anon.

Turanism is unfathomably based.

*degenerate

And I say that as someone who is quite fond of Turkey.

[Fahran]

I wish you the best. You'd be surprised at how many young men I know who can't budget or don't know how to handle basic finances. This is a great (and I think intentional) failing.

They can't handle their own finances, you say?

[The East Marches II]

I wish you the best. You'd be surprised at how many young men I know who can't budget or don't know how to handle basic finances. This is a great (and I think intentional) failing.

They can't handle their own finances, you say?

I'm afraid you know too much. It was one thing to accuse me of fomenting conflict for profit, it's another step of my turf. You'll have to come with these fine fellows in the black van. The headbag is for your protection :^)

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

[Again I am not sure why you think everything outside the US is the PRC
Actually the majority of countries in the world probably have not even been mentioned on this thread.

But sure, I understand why we often invoke hostility. That is is the difference.
I say “you do x” and all you say is “but you do x”.
But if you say I do x, well I do not always deny it, quite often I will admit I do x and should do better.

Why do you resort to whataboutism? The fact Americans do something wrong does not mean you are not doing something wrong. If Joe Smith calls Jim Brown a murderer then Jim Brown says Joe Smith is a bank robber, you know both could be right.
And both therefore criminals.

Whataboutism can be dumb, but it has one useful purpose: if you can point out an agent's hypocrisy you can reveal their true intentions. A lot of people believe the US exports its ideology to the world to make other countries better. Maybe you don't have that illusion but it's not exactly uncommon. Besides: "Whataboutism" provides the historical context for foreign policy. For instance, as I said about North Korea before. People on Nationstates tend to believe the US acts in a vacuum where it either imposes its "will" on countries if it wants to or it "liberates" them. Even if that's true, the country's responding to the US don't react in a vacuum.

I agree, ultimately, that a lot of my posts are invective. Who cares! Some of them are spam as well! And some are reasoned arguments! It's nothing personal that I don't like your country's ideology. I don't like mine either. Notice that most of you don't like China's or North Korea's. I don't love China's and I don't have a lot of positive things to say about North Korea.

However this thread isn't 90% Chinese or 90% North Koreans. If it was the conversation would look very different. Naturally someone is going to argue against your foreign policy, otherwise whole time that China or North Korea topic appears, it will just be circlejerk. I hate circlejerk more than anything. This topic is not one that I want to discuss all the time, it takes a lot of energy and it crowds out the rest of the thread, but I guess it's going to appear every couple weeks or so.

To me, as an observer, the whole US confrontation with China looks like a farce, like all other US foreign policy looks like a farce. I'm never going to begrudge you the right to defend yourself or impose retaliatory measures on other countries. But so many Americans seem utterly confused when their country's foreign policy doesn't work out the way they thought it would.

You need some pragmatism and some co-operation. Like I said earlier, speak softly and carry a big stick. People like you and Fahran read that as capitulation. It's possible for your government to negotiate on mutualist terms with other countries, while your civilian industry competes with them.

And no, again what happens in the outside world can destroy your house utterly.
Again why “put your house in order” if a wildfire is sweeping your whole county? And again a house is a project without end. If you wait to get your house perfect you are waiting forever.

You can do more than one thing at least once. The assumption you must be perfect at one thing to try another thing just means you will never get anywhere.

I don't know if you took the phrase too literally or you're extending the analogy beyond its useful reach. I'm also not trying to apply it to politics.

I'm not going go into details but I have a lot of things in my personal life that I need to do before I start helping others. My job already involves helping other people achieve their goals. At this moment in my life, it's time for me to start working on my own goals a bit.

Sure there is always non-passive stuff I can do now. But this is a time of reflection for me rn. It doesn't imply I want to be perfect at whatever I'm doing right now before I move on.

[Polding]

Turanism is unfathomably based.

Unfathomably cringe you mean, surely.

[Baltenstein]

SHUT IT DOWN HE KNOWS

HIDE THE SCHMIDT

Why didn't we get any good uniforms out of it?

Because the Soviet Union got there first.

[United Muscovite Nations]

If China put two supercarrier groups off the Pacific coast, our defense officials would go ape and you know it.

...you do realize that we have territory in the West Pacific (Guam and the North Mariana Islands), while China doesn't have any territory in the East Pacific, right? Unless they've massively expanded their land reclamation activities.
Very different type of situation because of that.

On a tangential note, what's everybody's opinions on Hong Kong, East Turkestan, Tibet, and the 1989 Tienanmen Square protests?

This is called having colonies. The US has colonies in the West Pacific over a century ago, our policy was to control East Asia.