NationStates

Cisairse wrote:

Hakons wrote:
As politicians, governors, and police chiefs turn on them, increasingly with threats to disband police unions or reduce funding (which is mostly wages), it becomes clear police officers have a class interest. They should go on strike if management continues to be so hostile. This is labor politics.

Sure, but the police are not members of the proletariat. They, in any bourgeois dictatorship, are the enforcer arm of the bourgeois apparatus which keeps classes stratified. The most effective way for a police officer to reduce the power and influence of the bourgeois is to resign. This is mostly unique among occupations.

Rationalize your philosophy if your prefer, but I don’t think this is going to help your movement. Police officers the country over are feeling pressure from management. Corporate America is strongly backing BLM initiatives. I don’t think your anti-police stance, which is shared by large swaths of the upper class, exactly makes you hand in hand with the working class.

Italios wrote:

The East Marches II wrote:
abolished under the PMC state with neofeudalism for the upper middle class*

:^)

oh, fuck off with this aimee shit, it doesn't work off twitter. i'm not advocating for abolishing police under capitalism so that we can have Mcdeathsquads, but they're certainly not friends of anyone with revolutionary ideals that fall outside of the Overton window of politically correct convictions - left wing or right wing.

I got shut the fuck down. What would replace the Polizei with?

Insofar as that police unions in the United States have acted as barriers to genuine institutional reform of the police, I can sympathise with the desire to disband them. The IWW infographic Cisairse posted, however, only makes sense within a Marxist ideological bubble. In the real world, even though police may well be corrupt, overly aggressive and institutionally prejudiced, the existence of public law enforcement is still more beneficial to the working class than it is to the property-owning class. The mere presence of police on the streets acts as a deterrence to crime, which makes life that little bit safer for the general public; in absence of a public police force the less well-off would be the most heavily impacted by rising crime whilst the affluent would be able to sequester themselves in safe upper- and upper-middle-class areas as well as investing in private security, luxuries not available to the great unwashed.

None of this overrides the very justified concerns that have been raised about the conduct of American police, or the issues with police forces in other countries (my own included) for that matter; but it is absurd to see the police only through the lens of class warfare as "objects of oppression," and this sort of blinkered tunnel-vision is a major issue with Marxism and left-wing thought in general. To summarise, yes, there are valid objections to be raised to the unionisation of the police force; but IWW's Marxist analysis is still dumb.

Questarian New Yorkshire wrote:who tf is making the next thread btw

I will deal with Bond

Questarian New Yorkshire wrote:who tf is making the next thread btw

I made one if that works for you all.

Questarian New Yorkshire wrote:

Lucja wrote:Think how much more entertaining forum debates could be if we were allowed to challenge each other to duels. It would completely eliminate the need to penalize flaming.

the forum would just be libertarians/nationalists with a smattering of "dont disarm the workers" marxists

Duels are cool in theory but a terrible idea in reality, just to keep it on track a bit. I've often thought about bringing them back but it's not a good idea

At least we would be rid of the cowardly centrists.

That is fair, I suffer from envy of the aristocratic ethos of the szlachta and a wish that society would return to those values (however much I dislike the class itself).

Hakons wrote:

Cisairse wrote:Sure, but the police are not members of the proletariat. They, in any bourgeois dictatorship, are the enforcer arm of the bourgeois apparatus which keeps classes stratified. The most effective way for a police officer to reduce the power and influence of the bourgeois is to resign. This is mostly unique among occupations.

Rationalize your philosophy if your prefer, but I don’t think this is going to help your movement. Police officers the country over are feeling pressure from management. Corporate America is strongly backing BLM initiatives. I don’t think your anti-police stance, which is shared by large swaths of the upper class, exactly makes you hand in hand with the working class.

Wait are you trying to say that BLM is an upper class stance?

For the record, it's not.

Corporate America is not "strongly backing" BLM initiatives. They're updating their twitter icon to be black and then firing all their employees that wear BLM masks to work.

Cisairse wrote:

Hakons wrote:
Rationalize your philosophy if your prefer, but I don’t think this is going to help your movement. Police officers the country over are feeling pressure from management. Corporate America is strongly backing BLM initiatives. I don’t think your anti-police stance, which is shared by large swaths of the upper class, exactly makes you hand in hand with the working class.

Wait are you trying to say that BLM is an upper class stance?

For the record, it's not.

Corporate America is not "strongly backing" BLM initiatives. They're updating their twitter icon to be black and then firing all their employees that wear BLM masks to work.

They are dumping millions into it. Where have you been? Also, address that you would leave social workers and ethnic gangs in the midst of your insane idea.

Cisairse wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:What are your thoughts on teacher's unions?

I haven't really seen any reason to have a problem with them.

I'm generally on board, but due to how sensitive the job of a teacher is, any sort of bad action can have much larger consequences than with most other jobs. Worst case scenario, they actively protect sexual predators (though I assume that this is rare, and most questionable blocks of termination are for teachers who just kinda suck at their jobs).

Cisairse wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:What are your thoughts on teacher's unions?

I haven't really seen any reason to have a problem with them.

The have a long history of making it difficult or impossible to fire child rapists?
https://www.investors.com/politics/edit ... -teachers/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicag ... utType=amp

Teachers work for the state, have huge institutional power, and the teachers unions sometimes abuse that horribly. What fundamentally makes them better?

The East Marches II wrote:Also, address that you would leave social workers and ethnic gangs in the midst of your insane idea.

I really have no idea where you got this idea from.

The East Marches II wrote:

Cisairse wrote:Wait are you trying to say that BLM is an upper class stance?

For the record, it's not.

Corporate America is not "strongly backing" BLM initiatives. They're updating their twitter icon to be black and then firing all their employees that wear BLM masks to work.

They are dumping millions into it. Where have you been? Also, address that you would leave social workers and ethnic gangs in the midst of your insane idea.

TFW when protests paid for by a Judeo-Capitalist billionaire somehow advance Marxism.

Cisairse wrote:

The East Marches II wrote:Also, address that you would leave social workers and ethnic gangs in the midst of your insane idea.

I really have no idea where you got this idea from.

Your furry comic. I'm describing to you what happened in the real world when the police didn't show up for work and what civil authorities tolerated. Engage with the world as it is. Explain to me how you will overcome ethnic gangs and low level warfare.

Cisairse wrote:

Hakons wrote:
Rationalize your philosophy if your prefer, but I don’t think this is going to help your movement. Police officers the country over are feeling pressure from management. Corporate America is strongly backing BLM initiatives. I don’t think your anti-police stance, which is shared by large swaths of the upper class, exactly makes you hand in hand with the working class.

Wait are you trying to say that BLM is an upper class stance?

For the record, it's not.

Corporate America is not "strongly backing" BLM initiatives. They're updating their twitter icon to be black and then firing all their employees that wear BLM masks to work.

Stopping police brutality is strongly working class. Defund the police, vandalize the war memorial, run over the cops, ect... is strongly upperclass, white, and liberal.

Proctopeo wrote:

Cisairse wrote:There's plenty of public sector jobs that have similar power dynamics to private sector jobs, and thus really do need unions.

Police are not one of them.

What are your thoughts on teacher's unions?

They don’t exist in my state. My parents are teachers, and I think would like to unionize...

Cooperate/cooperate working class people can actually just stop 99% of crime without the police. The sheriff is for dealing with that 1%.

But because of defectors you need gendarmerie to patrol your streets

Novus America wrote:

Cisairse wrote:I haven't really seen any reason to have a problem with them.

The have a long history of making it difficult or impossible to fire child rapists?
https://www.investors.com/politics/edit ... -teachers/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicag ... utType=amp

Teachers work for the state, have huge institutional power, and the teachers unions sometimes abuse that horribly. What fundamentally makes them better?

Protecting child rapists is definitely a concern. If that's an institutional problem, we should definitely work to address it.

As for what "fundamentally" makes them better, the answer is simple: teachers are not warriors in class conflict. Teachers are not on the front lines of the workingman's struggle for power and liberation; they are not abetting the bourgeois state in its quest for oppression of the proletariat.

Novus America wrote:

Cisairse wrote:I haven't really seen any reason to have a problem with them.

The have a long history of making it difficult or impossible to fire child rapists?
https://www.investors.com/politics/edit ... -teachers/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicag ... utType=amp

Teachers work for the state, have huge institutional power, and the teachers unions sometimes abuse that horribly. What fundamentally makes them better?

Shh. Teachers unions have already been captured by the long march through institutions; we don't have to worry about their abuse. It's like in Germany where it's nothing to be worried about.
Clearly the concern is actually the rounding error number of people unjustifiably shot by cops every year, some number of whom are coloured.

Cekoviu wrote:

The East Marches II wrote:
God damn. That was fucking spicy. Put on suicide watch by a Mormon. I'm turning in my Lutheran card.

>me
>a mormon
DELET THIS SLANDER

The East Marches II wrote:No doubt our fine progressives simply don't care. It's ok if a 15 year old kid is burned alive in a trash can for not joining a gang, it's much better than being a sinner!

depends on the 15 y/o tbh, some of the ones i've met are real dicks

You know I wish I could joke about this, but at a function I met one of my mom's patients who is a quadriplegic after being shot for not joining a gang in South Side Chicago. He was 13 when I met him.

Diopolis wrote:

Novus America wrote:
The have a long history of making it difficult or impossible to fire child rapists?
https://www.investors.com/politics/edit ... -teachers/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicag ... utType=amp

Teachers work for the state, have huge institutional power, and the teachers unions sometimes abuse that horribly. What fundamentally makes them better?

Shh. Teachers unions have already been captured by the long march through institutions; we don't have to worry about their abuse. It's like in Germany where it's nothing to be worried about.
Clearly the concern is actually the rounding error number of people unjustifiably shot by cops every year, some number of whom are coloured.

Not as bad as the institutionalized cover-ups for sexual predators, but teachers' unions are also geared to favour a certain generation of employees to the detriment of others. If you haven't been in the system for 20+ years, the unions don't give a shit about you aside from your union dues.

Cisairse wrote:

Novus America wrote:
But still they won. He who has the guns makes the rules. Your ideology ensures that you will be one of the victims in a hypothetical revolution rather than the victors.

You do realize that people are protesting right now and being killed by police officers right now, right?

We're not talking about some hypothetical future.

I mean well okay, even in the present you might be screwed. But I doubt you are out their fighting for the revolution or whatever.

Sure people get killed by police, although this is not always bad (and most the people killing during this unrest were NOT killed by police) although it can be bad when the killing is not legally and ethically justified but I fail to see how this changes the point.

If there is a Marxist revolution the left cons end up being put up against a wall by the ones who have the guns. Guns win.

Imperium Romanum Sanctis wrote:

Diopolis wrote:Shh. Teachers unions have already been captured by the long march through institutions; we don't have to worry about their abuse. It's like in Germany where it's nothing to be worried about.
Clearly the concern is actually the rounding error number of people unjustifiably shot by cops every year, some number of whom are coloured.

Not as bad as the institutionalized cover-ups for sexual predators, but teachers' unions are also geared to favour a certain generation of employees to the detriment of others. If you haven't been in the system for 20+ years, the unions don't give a shit about you aside from your union dues.

In the only conversation I've had with a teacher about unions, he expressed intense frustration that newly hired teachers were more willing to negotiate lower salaries and generally held anti-union views, which he believed was contributing to a culture of disdain for new hires among teachers who had worked at the school for many years and had been very involved in previous union negotiations.

The abolish the police crowd is what really soured everything. Some of y'all have no idea what areas that have little to no police presence are like.

Novus America wrote:

Cisairse wrote:You do realize that people are protesting right now and being killed by police officers right now, right?

We're not talking about some hypothetical future.

I mean well okay, even in the present you might be screwed. But I doubt you are out their fighting for the revolution or whatever.

Sure people get killed by police, although this is not always bad (and most the people killing during this unrest were NOT killed by police) although it can be bad when the killing is not legally and ethically justified but I fail to see how this changes the point.

If there is a Marxist revolution the left cons end up being put up against a wall by the ones who have the guns. Guns win.

Yes, which is why the left should arm itself.

Cisairse wrote:You do realize that people are protesting right now and being killed by police officers right now, right?

We're not talking about some hypothetical future.

More people have been killed by protestors or bystanders than police officers, at least in connection to the protests themselves.

Calvin Horton Jr. was shot by a business owner while looting his store.

David Patrick Underwood was a law enforcement officer murdered by a right-wing terrorist.

Barry Perkins was a protestor who got run over by a FedEx employee who was trying to avoid being assaulted by looters.

James Scurlock was a protestor who was shot by a business owner after engaging in an alteraction, alongside fellow looters, with the man in question.

Sarah Grossman was a protestor who died from acute respiratory issues after being exposed to tear gas.

Dorian Murell was shot and killed by a fellow protestor after allegedly pushing the man.

Chris Beaty was a business owner shot by looters.

Marvin Francois was shot by looters while picking his son up from a protest.

John Tiggs was shot by looters.

Myqwon Blanchard was shot by a looter.

David McAtee, a business owner, was shot by law enforcement after an exchange of fire when he was mistaken for a looter.

Italia Marie Kelly and someone else were allegedly shot as they were leaving a protest, probably by looters or people uninvolved in the protests.

Jose Gutierrez and Victor Cazares were shot by "outsider agitators."

Police shot Jorge Gomez.

A man in Philadelphia was shot while trying to loot a gunstore. The mayor was "deeply troubled" by vigilante justice - as opposed to being troubled by violent people trying to get ahold of guns.

Some guy blew himself with an explosive device while trying to loot an ATM machine.

Sean Monterrosa was shot by police.

Robert Forbes was struck by a vehicle.