RWDT XX: The System Is Kapp Putsch

[South Odreria 2]

Shinto is uber pagan, but I am unfamiliar with Chinese folk religion.

Some people say the term pagan should only be applied to European and Middle Eastern traditions that were historically displaced by Abrahamic monotheism. But if Shinto counts as pagan, I certainly would say that what is known as "Chinese Folk Religion" or "Shenism" is pagan as well.

Those people are wrong.

[Lucja]

Who would not want to worship Perun or Devana though?

Most Poles in history so long as Poland has actually existed as a concept.

The alternative was being killed and even then popular uprisings among pagans were prominent in the early years of Polish and West Slavic history.

[Salus Maior]

Most Poles in history so long as Poland has actually existed as a concept.

The alternative was being killed and even then popular uprisings among pagans were prominent in the early years of Polish and West Slavic history.

Yeah, like a thousand years ago.

And as I understand it, it's debatable how much of the early revolts in Poland were due to Christianization, or the centralization of power into the monarchy (which, mind, was necessary to form the foundations of the Polish state).

[New Visayan Islands]

Shinto is uber pagan, but I am unfamiliar with Chinese folk religion.

Some people say the term pagan should only be applied to European and Middle Eastern traditions that were historically displaced by Abrahamic monotheism. But if Shinto counts as pagan, I certainly would say that what is known as "Chinese Folk Religion" or "Shenism" is pagan as well.

By the same rubric, wouldn't one consider the Dharmic umbrella pagan?

[Jack Thomas Lang]

The alternative was being killed and even then popular uprisings among pagans were prominent in the early years of Polish and West Slavic history.

That doesn't undermine his point though. Poland as we know it cannot be separated from its Catholic history.

If it remained pagan, who the hell knows what Poland would be like. German probably.

[Washington Resistance Army]

The alternative was being killed and even then popular uprisings among pagans were prominent in the early years of Polish and West Slavic history.

That doesn't undermine his point though. Poland as we know it cannot be separated from its Catholic history.

If it remained pagan, who the hell knows what Poland would be like. German probably.

Probably not German imho. It would just have just been forcibly converted later down the line as Lithuania was.

[Salus Maior]

The alternative was being killed and even then popular uprisings among pagans were prominent in the early years of Polish and West Slavic history.

That doesn't undermine his point though. Poland as we know it cannot be separated from its Catholic history.

If it remained pagan, who the hell knows what Poland would be like. German probably.

It probably wouldn't have formed a unified identity at any rate.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Probably not German imho. It would just have just been forcibly converted later down the line as Lithuania was.

Germans love their lebensraum, have for centuries. It's not out of the question that they'd invade and colonise a Pagan Poland early on. Pope won't complain, neither will other Catholics.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Probably not German imho. It would just have just been forcibly converted later down the line as Lithuania was.

Germans love their lebensraum, have for centuries. It's not out of the question that they'd invade and colonise a Pagan Poland early on. Pope won't complain, neither will other Catholics.

Oh it's certainly possible for sure, I just personally see the usual "convert or die" message being more likely.

At least more and more people are coming into polytheism again, it's a cool time.

[Kowani]

Germans love their lebensraum, have for centuries. It's not out of the question that they'd invade and colonise a Pagan Poland early on. Pope won't complain, neither will other Catholics.

Oh it's certainly possible for sure, I just personally see the usual "convert or die" message being more likely.

At least more and more people are coming into polytheism again, it's a cool time.

Do you think that trend will hold, or is it just a fad?

[Salus Maior]

Germans love their lebensraum, have for centuries. It's not out of the question that they'd invade and colonise a Pagan Poland early on. Pope won't complain, neither will other Catholics.

Oh it's certainly possible for sure, I just personally see the usual "convert or die" message being more likely.

At least more and more people are coming into polytheism again, it's a cool time.

Yeah, it's an interesting fad.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Oh it's certainly possible for sure, I just personally see the usual "convert or die" message being more likely.

At least more and more people are coming into polytheism again, it's a cool time.

I don't understand it tbh, beyond the comprehensible reasons of LARP and nationalism. Christianity at least tries to be a global religion with an all-powerful God that could have made the universe. Perun, not so much.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Oh it's certainly possible for sure, I just personally see the usual "convert or die" message being more likely.

At least more and more people are coming into polytheism again, it's a cool time.

Do you think that trend will hold, or is it just a fad?

It's been pretty consistent since the 60's or so tbh. Once Christianity started losing a lot of its state or societal power people started going elsewhere for religion because there was nothing stopping them, I don't really expect that to stop anytime soon. At least not in Europe or America.

[Lucja]

The alternative was being killed and even then popular uprisings among pagans were prominent in the early years of Polish and West Slavic history.

Yeah, like a thousand years ago.

And as I understand it, it's debatable how much of the early revolts in Poland were due to Christianization, or the centralization of power into the monarchy (which, mind, was necessary to form the foundations of the Polish state).

The reasons were intertwined since the Piast's decision to Christianize was deeply unpopular with segments of the population.

[Kowani]

Do you think that trend will hold, or is it just a fad?

It's been pretty consistent since the 60's or so tbh. Once Christianity started losing a lot of its state or societal power people started going elsewhere for religion because there was nothing stopping them, I don't really expect that to stop anytime soon. At least not in Europe or America.

I see. That makes sense, actually. Thanks!

[Salus Maior]

Yeah, like a thousand years ago.

And as I understand it, it's debatable how much of the early revolts in Poland were due to Christianization, or the centralization of power into the monarchy (which, mind, was necessary to form the foundations of the Polish state).

The reasons were intertwined since the Piast's decision to Christianize was deeply unpopular with segments of the population.

A shame, but ultimately better in the long run for Poland. Christianity was an important piece of the European political sphere, which is why most kings converted in top-down national conversions to Christianity, as they did in Scandinavia (although this wasn't the only way nations converted).

Keeping paganism would have only isolated Poland, as it did Lithuania. And as I alluded to before, gave the Kings means to centralize their Kingdoms which laid the foundation for national identity.

[Benuty]

Chinese folk religion and Shinto are kind of cool too, but I am not sure if you would count them as pagan.

Shinto is uber pagan, but I am unfamiliar with Chinese folk religion.

Shinto in terms of paganism as the west understands it is...iffy. Some sects of Shintoism aren't even exactly sure what the Kami are, much less deities.

[Fahran]

Shinto is uber pagan, but I am unfamiliar with Chinese folk religion.

It really depends on what you mean by "pagan" and whether or not you believe Shinto is distinguishable from Buddhism. With regard to paganism, I tend to emphasize the rustic and provincial nature of the belief systems, the lack of a singular canon, an obsession with appeasing deities or spirits to ensure concrete real world advantages such as good harvests, and, importantly, broader impact on surrounding institutions such as the family, the household, and the village. It's part of why I don't really view Wicca or Thelema as properly pagan.

[North German Realm]

Germans love their lebensraum, have for centuries. It's not out of the question that they'd invade and colonise a Pagan Poland early on. Pope won't complain, neither will other Catholics.

Oh it's certainly possible for sure, I just personally see the usual "convert or die" message being more likely.

At least more and more people are coming into polytheism again, it's a cool time.

In the particular case of that era's Germans, a thorough Germanization after periods of invasion (a la what happened to Prussia) is more likely than "Convert or Die" imo. That said, are there any actual pagans in Poland? I was under the impression Catholicism was part of what defined their nationhood.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Oh it's certainly possible for sure, I just personally see the usual "convert or die" message being more likely.

At least more and more people are coming into polytheism again, it's a cool time.

In the particular case of that era's Germans, a thorough Germanization after periods of invasion (a la what happened to Prussia) is more likely than "Convert or Die" imo. That said, are there any actual pagans in Poland? I was under the impression Catholicism was part of what defined their nationhood.

There are some yeah. The Slavic nations have a pretty active neopagan community, though there is some overlap with extreme right movements like the Germanic community faces too.

[Fahran]

The alternative was being killed and even then popular uprisings among pagans were prominent in the early years of Polish and West Slavic history.

The history of religious conflict in Poland is a good deal more complex than Catholics oppressing pagans. It incorporates political considerations, aggression against Christian settlements in pursuit of slaves and booty by the pagans, an earnest desire to proselytize by the Christians, the desire of German nobles to become wealthy land-owners, etc. I imagine that while violence occurred in Poland surrounding its conversion that a lot of the conversion, at least on the individual level, wasn't forced - in much the same way that a lot of the Romans and Vikings gradually accepted Christianity of their own volition. Religions of salvation tend to be popular alternatives to pagan cults - and I do not use that term to be insulting but rather to acknowledge that you're not usually going to worship an entire pantheon.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

does it need to have a definition?

It helps a bit with conversation, especially if we're going to argue that such a thing exists in multiple countries.

Let's change the mode of thinking.

Do not describe things by their labels. Do not describe things by what they want you to call them and do not describe them by their category. Explain things only by what they do, and how they would be observed by historians, not by what they purport to do or what they were intended to do or what they "should do". Look at the actual manner in which an organisation works, how the hierarchy is practically structured and who does what.

In other words look at the world Formally, with Formalism: by examining its Form or its mode, rather than what it claims to be, or by what names or roles it demands that it has. Remove exceptionalism - do not pretend that we are somehow biologically exceptional because we were born with the internet (well, you were, not me). Do not pretend humans can escape either social programming fully or biology at all.

Some of these things are almost illegal. In some contexts noting that 80% of people in most organisations do more or less nothing and 20% of people do most of the difficult tasks is almost a thought crime. Properly trying to understand how people, especially in social world, actually work is very hard, and nobody claims to be able to do it completely, but most normies — for lack of a better word — don't even try. In fact if you do it, they get angry, and upset. Most normies are of course just bots, even highly intelligent normies who in every other respect express agency. Partially this is because humans are subject to normalcy bias. We think what we see now is the normal. Partially this is because we are socially programmed by whatever social infrastructure we happen to get born in. Hence bots, hence high IQ, high agency people repeating logical fallacies as moral truths, which we see all the time — well, I guess depending on how many high IQ people you know.

Personally, I'm not that high IQ. Probably top 25 percentile. I'm just really stubborn and don't like being told what to do. So the next part came naturally to me:

Escaping that social infrastructure somehow is called taking a red pill (obviously you know this and you know what I'm referring to). Of course there's many types of pills. The world looks very different once you escape trying to understand it from the prescription social infrastructure.

If you do all those things - and you can try it for just a day, you can start to understand what the Universal Moral Authority is. But first you have to perceive the world in such a way that reveals its existence.

In this thread — in fact this entire forum — only a couple of people routinely express that they're aware of its existence. There's a very large handful (maybe 5%) who make it obvious that they're capable of expressing awareness and that they're fundamentally not bots, but many of them never make the jump.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

By the way virtually all "pilled" people, irrespective of what type of pill they take, express awareness of the Universal Moral Authority. Even the low IQ incels.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Btw Fahran, quit stealing poll ideas from Classical Studies Memes for Hellenistic Teens, tyvm.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

By the way virtually all "pilled" people, irrespective of what type of pill they take, express awareness of the Universal Moral Authority. Even the low IQ incels.

What do you mean by universal moral authority? That there is objective morality that applies to everyone, everywhere?