RWDT XX: The System Is Kapp Putsch

[Joohan]

I've always been a real bloomer but... I dunno man, the race riots have got me feeling bleak. It's never been this bad before. It's LA 1992, but everywhere. I remember Ferguson and all the other smaller incidents that have happened before, but those never really dampened my optimism.

What absolutely slays me as of recent, is how people all across social media are justifying and supportive of the murder and mayhem. I'm a generally chill guy, but that so many people are not only okay with the anarchy and violence but supportive of it astounds me! Like it were that people just gave up on civil society because violence seemed more cathartic and convenient. People are even trying to compare the butchery in the streets to the Boston Tea Party.

There is no coming back from Lord of the Flies. You don't just go back to normal after cheering on looters as they burn down your neighbors business and beat him senseless in the streets. If anarchy and barbarism was the great American democracy that the founding fathers had conceived of, then American democracy was a mistake.

America has had riots before.

Probably way worse ones during the Civil Rights era.

I could find a parallel in the King assassination riots, which the current race riots mimic closely in terms of how widespread they are, how destructive, and how gruesomely violent.

What makes the current situation worse though, as I understand it, is social media. I don't think there was a mass public push to try and justify the violence during that time - certainly I am sure some people tried, but nothing strikes me off the top of my head. With social media though, you can go on facebook or twitter, or whatever, and find literally thousands of people cheering the mayhem on. These riots are a lot more personal in that way. I pesonally have seen a lot of old friends straight up say, " They don't care about the violence and looting ".

Like I said, I like to think i'm a chill dude - but that's a straight up haunting statement, that's gonna stick with me for a while. People don't care if their fellow Americans are turned into collateral damage. That kind of malice and disregard is what is giving me boogaloo vibes. If this is what we have become as a nation, then maybe America deserves to collapse.

[Joohan]

America has had riots before.

Probably way worse ones during the Civil Rights era.

19th Century riots had deaths in the mid-hundreds.

We also had a civil war in the 19th century....

[Fahran]

America has had riots before.

Probably way worse ones during the Civil Rights era.

America has had literal pogroms in the past.

[Diopolis]

I've always been a real bloomer but... I dunno man, the race riots have got me feeling bleak. It's never been this bad before. It's LA 1992, but everywhere. I remember Ferguson and all the other smaller incidents that have happened before, but those never really dampened my optimism.

What absolutely slays me as of recent, is how people all across social media are justifying and supportive of the murder and mayhem. I'm a generally chill guy, but that so many people are not only okay with the anarchy and violence but supportive of it astounds me! Like it were that people just gave up on civil society because violence seemed more cathartic and convenient. People are even trying to compare the butchery in the streets to the Boston Tea Party.

There is no coming back from Lord of the Flies. You don't just go back to normal after cheering on looters as they burn down your neighbors business and beat him senseless in the streets. If anarchy and barbarism was the great American democracy that the founding fathers had conceived of, then American democracy was a mistake.

America has had riots before.

Probably way worse ones during the Civil Rights era.

I'll note that the scale is unprecedented in living memory.
The civil rights era had some bad riots- heck, LA '92 was bad- but I don't seem to recall there being mass violent protests engulfing the downtown of every major city simultaneously.
That's not to say the world is coming to an end. There'll be martial law temporarily in some places, the protestors'll get butchered or go home, Patriot act will get a big brother of retardation, it'll be a tough time to be a negro for ten years or so(tougher than it was, at any rate), we'll get a soft UBI for a while, the currency'll go to shit, our president's gonna be senile no matter what, and then everything's gonna keep decaying.
But this is the crisis of the third century, it's not the fall of the roman empire.

[Fahran]

But this is the crisis of the third century, it's not the fall of the roman empire.

I think it's being hyped a good deal more by left-wing extremists and those paranoid about the riots than it probably ought to be. We had widespread riots when Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. We had a lot of protests, some of which devolved into riots, over the incident in Ferguson as well. The main thing is that we need to get the situation under control and actually implement reforms in response to legitimate grievances. The Crisis of the Third Century was a good deal more destabilizing politically than this.

[Diopolis]

But this is the crisis of the third century, it's not the fall of the roman empire.

I think it's being hyped a good deal more by left-wing extremists and those paranoid about the riots than it probably ought to be. We had widespread riots when Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. We had a lot of protests, some of which devolved into riots, over the incident in Ferguson as well. The main thing is that we need to get the situation under control and actually implement reforms in response to legitimate grievances. The Crisis of the Third Century was a good deal more destabilizing politically than this.

We're still in the very beginning of it, and it's coupled with the chinese virus, the lockdowns(and lockdown fever), economic decline from the lockdowns, looming massive inflation from the stimulus to try to arrest the economic problems from the lockdowns, etc.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

I think it's interesting that for most of the right-wing, regicide is almost always an awful and immoral act. I'm not particularly a monarchist (although I've been moving towards that direction), but even I find the murder of kings like Charles II, Louis XVI and Nicholas II (among others) a terrible thing. Do you feel similarly or not?

[Novus America]

America has had riots before.

Probably way worse ones during the Civil Rights era.

I'll note that the scale is unprecedented in living memory.
The civil rights era had some bad riots- heck, LA '92 was bad- but I don't seem to recall there being mass violent protests engulfing the downtown of every major city simultaneously.
That's not to say the world is coming to an end. There'll be martial law temporarily in some places, the protestors'll get butchered or go home, Patriot act will get a big brother of retardation, it'll be a tough time to be a negro for ten years or so(tougher than it was, at any rate), we'll get a soft UBI for a while, the currency'll go to shit, our president's gonna be senile no matter what, and then everything's gonna keep decaying.
But this is the crisis of the third century, it's not the fall of the roman empire.

92 was after the Civil Rights Era.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long,_h ... er_of_1967
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_as ... tion_riots
Actually there were far worse in 1967 and again in 1968.

And I would not say this is the crisis of the third century at all, we do not have civil wars and constant coups.

It really is very much the late 60s again.
We survived that.

[Novus America]

I think it's interesting that for most of the right-wing, regicide is almost always an awful and immoral act. I'm not particularly a monarchist (although I've been moving towards that direction), but even I find the murder of kings like Charles II, Louis XVI and Nicholas II (among others) a terrible thing. Do you feel similarly or not?

Interestingly the US Revolutionaries were almost universally appalled by the execution of Louis XVI.

Although not all right wing are monarchists or believe kings are above the law, but I do think most tend to strongly oppose mob type executions.

[Fahran]

I think it's interesting that for most of the right-wing, regicide is almost always an awful and immoral act. I'm not particularly a monarchist (although I've been moving towards that direction), but even I find the murder of kings like Charles II, Louis XVI and Nicholas II (among others) a terrible thing. Do you feel similarly or not?

One thing that appalls me about these regicides is that they could not, even by the most liberal and generous leaps of the imagination, have been interpreted believably as legal, just, and moral and, furthermore, they preceded bloody turmoils that often devoured whole the very persons who instigated them.

[Diopolis]

I'll note that the scale is unprecedented in living memory.
The civil rights era had some bad riots- heck, LA '92 was bad- but I don't seem to recall there being mass violent protests engulfing the downtown of every major city simultaneously.
That's not to say the world is coming to an end. There'll be martial law temporarily in some places, the protestors'll get butchered or go home, Patriot act will get a big brother of retardation, it'll be a tough time to be a negro for ten years or so(tougher than it was, at any rate), we'll get a soft UBI for a while, the currency'll go to shit, our president's gonna be senile no matter what, and then everything's gonna keep decaying.
But this is the crisis of the third century, it's not the fall of the roman empire.

92 was after the Civil Rights Era.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long,_h ... er_of_1967
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_as ... tion_riots
Actually there were far worse in 1967 and again in 1968.

And I would not say this is the crisis of the third century at all, we do not have civil wars and constant coups.

It really is very much the late 60s again.
We survived that.

I mean, we did just have a failed coup attempt over something to do with Russia, game of thrones tier plot complexity, spending $300 million of the public purse investigating political opponents, and orange man bad.
And whatever happens in November, it's going to be a shitstorm.
In any case, I said this was the beginning of a period of protracted crisis. Not the middle of it.

[Fahran]

I mean, we did just have a failed coup attempt over something to do with Russia, game of thrones tier plot complexity, spending $300 million of the public purse investigating political opponents, and orange man bad.

This merely confirms that the formal opposition in Congress is a den of failsons and faildaughters but, alas, this is the natural state of the politician.

And whatever happens in November, it's going to be a shitstorm.
In any case, I said this was the beginning of a period of protracted crisis. Not the middle of it.

I'll have my popcorn ready.

[Novus America]

92 was after the Civil Rights Era.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long,_h ... er_of_1967
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_as ... tion_riots
Actually there were far worse in 1967 and again in 1968.

And I would not say this is the crisis of the third century at all, we do not have civil wars and constant coups.

It really is very much the late 60s again.
We survived that.

I mean, we did just have a failed coup attempt over something to do with Russia, game of thrones tier plot complexity, spending $300 million of the public purse investigating political opponents, and orange man bad.
And whatever happens in November, it's going to be a shitstorm.
In any case, I said this was the beginning of a period of protracted crisis. Not the middle of it.

I mean that was not a Roman type coup, not military units rebelled.
Sure I think a 70s type crisis is possible again but that is very different.

[Diopolis]

I mean, we did just have a failed coup attempt over something to do with Russia, game of thrones tier plot complexity, spending $300 million of the public purse investigating political opponents, and orange man bad.
And whatever happens in November, it's going to be a shitstorm.
In any case, I said this was the beginning of a period of protracted crisis. Not the middle of it.

I mean that was not a Roman type coup, not military units rebelled.
Sure I think a 70s type crisis is possible again but that is very different.

Yeah, but we're not ancient Rome. Weakening federalism and a massive reduction in civilian control over the military are more likely outcomes, along with gridlock and hyperinflation.

[Novus America]

I think it's interesting that for most of the right-wing, regicide is almost always an awful and immoral act. I'm not particularly a monarchist (although I've been moving towards that direction), but even I find the murder of kings like Charles II, Louis XVI and Nicholas II (among others) a terrible thing. Do you feel similarly or not?

One thing that appalls me about these regicides is that they could not, even by the most liberal and generous leaps of the imagination, have been interpreted believably as legal, just, and moral and, furthermore, they preceded bloody turmoils that often devoured whole the very persons who instigated them.

This. I do not think anyone is above the law, and a king who really does commit a capital worthy crime might need to be held accountable for it, in an extreme case, such politically motivated show trials and mob killings are not the way to go.

The vast majority of Americans, even though thoroughly republican by the time were largely appalled by the execution of Louis XVI and the US turned strongly against France, even imposing sanctions and fighting a de facto war against republican France.

[Novus America]

I mean that was not a Roman type coup, not military units rebelled.
Sure I think a 70s type crisis is possible again but that is very different.

Yeah, but we're not ancient Rome. Weakening federalism and a massive reduction in civilian control over the military are more likely outcomes, along with gridlock and hyperinflation.

I mean the gridlock and inflation were quite prominent in the 70s.
Sure we are not Ancient Rome, but we survived the late 60s and 70s so we can survive this.

[Cekoviu]

I've always been a real bloomer but... I dunno man, the race riots have got me feeling bleak. It's never been this bad before. It's LA 1992, but everywhere. I remember Ferguson and all the other smaller incidents that have happened before, but those never really dampened my optimism.

What absolutely slays me as of recent, is how people all across social media are justifying and supportive of the murder and mayhem. I'm a generally chill guy, but that so many people are not only okay with the anarchy and violence but supportive of it astounds me! Like it were that people just gave up on civil society because violence seemed more cathartic and convenient. People are even trying to compare the butchery in the streets to the Boston Tea Party.

There is no coming back from Lord of the Flies. You don't just go back to normal after cheering on looters as they burn down your neighbors business and beat him senseless in the streets. If anarchy and barbarism was the great American democracy that the founding fathers had conceived of, then American democracy was a mistake.

Interesting that you're upset about senseless violence on the part of rioters and seem to be utterly unfazed by that on the part of police (which set off this entire thing, if you need reminding).

[Fahran]

Interesting that you're upset about senseless violence on the part of rioters and seem to be utterly unfazed by that on the part of police (which set off this entire thing, if you need reminding).

If I'm being honest, I'm disgusted both by police brutality and senseless riots that are impacting innocents. I don't like actions and behaviors that lead to needless and arbitrary suffering. We all ought to be better than that by now. And I could even comprehend lashing out at the police and more minor property damage as a result of pent-up frustration with the injustice of the system. But I get upset when I see small business owners, middle-aged people who have worked hard and just barely made it, sobbing in the burnt out remains of the black-owned business they struggled to make happen. Or see people roughed up and bleeding when they were minding their own business. Or people barricading doors and praying that rioters don't bust them down or light buildings on fire.

I haven't talked about it here very often because I try to avoid more toxic threads and it hasn't been brought up here yet, but, on a fundamental level, I don't think anyone should die because of a no-knock raid or check fraud or selling lose cigarettes or playing with a toy gun like a bunch of kids do. It's senseless, it leaves families devastated, and it's unjust. Police officers are allegedly professionals and we shouldn't have to act more professional than them to not get shot by them. We need higher standards for those who serve and we need to change policies that make stupid confrontations inevitable. But I'm not going to coddle rioters because of that either.

And, importantly, not everyone affiliated with BLM is inciting riots. A lot of vidoes have circulated of them calling people out for vandalism and looting - in some cases white anarchist kids journeying into black neighborhoods from suburbia. So I don't think we should disrespect people who are trying to have peaceful protests by legitimizing people who in many cases aren't even fighting for a message or the good of communities of color.

[Taihei Tengoku]

This was more or less a routine police encounter that was politicized more or less arbitrarily. Other encounters are no more or less brutal, and other cases were no more or less unjust--Ahmad Aubery's case has totally disappeared from the news cycle, despite being Mississippi Burning levels of messed up. This was a good opportunity to displace the hated hill tribes from the police and substitute it with their own (what "police reform" actually is) and they got real close to achieving it.

Why else would all the American protectorates have copycat protests about something that happened on another country on another continent that they loved to mock for its handling of COVID up until last Sunday?

[Cekoviu]

Interesting that you're upset about senseless violence on the part of rioters and seem to be utterly unfazed by that on the part of police (which set off this entire thing, if you need reminding).

If I'm being honest, I'm disgusted both by police brutality and senseless riots that are impacting innocents. I don't like actions and behaviors that lead to needless and arbitrary suffering. We all ought to be better than that by now. And I could even comprehend lashing out at the police and more minor property damage as a result of pent-up frustration with the injustice of the system. But I get upset when I see small business owners, middle-aged people who have worked hard and just barely made it, sobbing in the burnt out remains of the black-owned business they struggled to make happen. Or see people roughed up and bleeding when they were minding their own business. Or people barricading doors and praying that rioters don't bust them down or light buildings on fire.

I haven't talked about it here very often because I try to avoid more toxic threads and it hasn't been brought up here yet, but, on a fundamental level, I don't think anyone should die because of a no-knock raid or check fraud or selling lose cigarettes or playing with a toy gun like a bunch of kids do. It's senseless, it leaves families devastated, and it's unjust. Police officers are allegedly professionals and we shouldn't have to act more professional than them to not get shot by them. We need higher standards for those who serve and we need to change policies that make stupid confrontations inevitable. But I'm not going to coddle rioters because of that either.

And, importantly, not everyone affiliated with BLM is inciting riots. A lot of vidoes have circulated of them calling people out for vandalism and looting - in some cases white anarchist kids journeying into black neighborhoods from suburbia. So I don't think we should disrespect people who are trying to have peaceful protests by legitimizing people who in many cases aren't even fighting for a message or the good of communities of color.

I fully agree. What rustles my jimmies is when people pretend protesters are the only problem while conveniently ignoring the rampant issues in the American police system, which is different from acknowledging that both groups have serious issues that are symptomatic of a wider power imbalance in society.

[Bienenhalde]

Trump's winning Minnesota this November. I'll throw out my Venmo and bet on it.

You are losing it. For one thing, Minnesota is a solidly blue state. For another thing, Trump's incompetence was a huge factor contributing to these riots in the first place.

[Joohan]

I've always been a real bloomer but... I dunno man, the race riots have got me feeling bleak. It's never been this bad before. It's LA 1992, but everywhere. I remember Ferguson and all the other smaller incidents that have happened before, but those never really dampened my optimism.

What absolutely slays me as of recent, is how people all across social media are justifying and supportive of the murder and mayhem. I'm a generally chill guy, but that so many people are not only okay with the anarchy and violence but supportive of it astounds me! Like it were that people just gave up on civil society because violence seemed more cathartic and convenient. People are even trying to compare the butchery in the streets to the Boston Tea Party.

There is no coming back from Lord of the Flies. You don't just go back to normal after cheering on looters as they burn down your neighbors business and beat him senseless in the streets. If anarchy and barbarism was the great American democracy that the founding fathers had conceived of, then American democracy was a mistake.

Interesting that you're upset about senseless violence on the part of rioters and seem to be utterly unfazed by that on the part of police (which set off this entire thing, if you need reminding).

Police aren't burning down neighborhoods and looting.

I'm fourth generation blue, so I have a lot of bias in that regard. A lot of the stuff which people regard as police brutality I don't find as unreasonable - things like pepper spray, bean bags, and even CS gas are weapons designed to frustrate and irritate people, not actually harm them. They are non-lethal crowd control weapons, and they work fantastically well in that capacity. The tactic of cops swarming a resistant subject makes perfect sense to me if you're trying to seduce someone. Don't get me wrong, what happened to Mr. Floyd was wrong, that cop was wrong, and so was everyone else there for not telling him so. Legitimately terrible stuff happens, absolutely - but it's not nearly as rampant or unchecked as people think. Cops are generally held to a pretty high standard within their departments, with reprimands and legal accountability not at all being uncommon ( if just greatly under reported ).

In the present scenario, of the race riots, cops are gonna be on edge and doing a lot more messed up stuff. They're in a high stress and hostile environment, so a higher rate of failure should be expected, i'm not ignorant of that. How you see a cop handle himself in the heat of a riot though, is usually pretty different from how he handles himself in his usual duties. Officer's don't usually have riot control in mind when they sign onto the force. The police are there because it is their jobs, so I have some more sympathy for them.

The looters ( not the protesters ) though, they chose to be there, and they made the conscious decision to pillage.

[Fahran]

You are losing it. For one thing, Minnesota is a solidly blue state. For another thing, Trump's incompetence was a huge factor contributing to these riots in the first place.

I think you're giving him way too much credit. Riots were going to happen regardless of what he did after Chauvin needlessly killed (I'd even say murdered) Floyd.

[Joohan]

I don't think we should disrespect people who are trying to have peaceful protests by legitimizing people who in many cases aren't even fighting for a message or the good of communities of color.

This. I've seen a lot of people start quoting the JFK bit about peaceful revolution in justifying the violence. I know being the bigger man suck's huge, but, the point of being the bigger man isn't about making life easier, it's about doing the right thing.

No one benefits from this

[Northern Davincia]

I think it's interesting that for most of the right-wing, regicide is almost always an awful and immoral act. I'm not particularly a monarchist (although I've been moving towards that direction), but even I find the murder of kings like Charles II, Louis XVI and Nicholas II (among others) a terrible thing. Do you feel similarly or not?

Depends on the king. Charles I deserved his execution.