RWDT XX: The System Is Kapp Putsch

[Novus America]

Okay. Then our policies are not that different.
I am absolutely not calling for us to go sack Beijing.

I am simply saying we should recognize both the PRC and ROC, within their current borders.
That we massively reduce our reliance on PRC imports. That we increase our military strength in the Pacific. That we help our allies in the region strengthen their own forces.
That we try to counter PRC political influence and espionage operations here.

Unless you are a neoliberal (the PRC imports thing would freak them out) which you are not, I do not see the issue.

Yes, I would support that. I support negotiation from a position of understanding each others' motivations as well, but that is the only practical difference. I don't think one can have a secure foreign policy while being dependent entirely on another country, especially another great power, such as as the PRC.

Fair enough so then although we might not be in perfect accord on political philosophy aspects, we are mostly in accord on the policy decisions.

I am not against negotiations with the PRC on areas we have a aims that are not zero sum. Although those are relatively few. For example we might be able to work together on Afghanistan. Even the hardest Cold Warriors like Eisenhower could negotiate with the Soviets on certain things and did.
Given I think we take that approach I am still not against negotiations, even if I do not expect much to come out of them.

[Genivaria]

oh was genivaria trying to pretend his sig wasn't genocidal, again, lmao

Do you simply exist to bait?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yes, I would support that. I support negotiation from a position of understanding each others' motivations as well, but that is the only practical difference. I don't think one can have a secure foreign policy while being dependent entirely on another country, especially another great power, such as as the PRC.

Fair enough so then although we might not be in perfect accord on political philosophy aspects, we are mostly in accord on the policy decisions.

I am not against negotiations with the PRC on areas we have a aims that are not zero sum. Although those are relatively few. For example we might be able to work together on Afghanistan. Even the hardest Cold Warriors like Eisenhower could negotiate with the Soviets on certain things and did.
Given I think we take that approach I am still not against negotiations, even if I do not expect much to come out of them.

I think the main thing is to just understand what they believe to avoid unintentional escalation. Able Archer 83 comes to mind.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

oh was genivaria trying to pretend his sig wasn't genocidal, again, lmao

Do you simply exist to bait?

bro you have a pro genocide signature, I wouldnt comment on me "baiting"

[Nap the Magnificent]

All we need is a cunning plan.

I shall consult Gork and Mork.

OWZ'BOUT WE TEK A COUPA BOYZ AN PUT'EM IN BIG RED LANTERNS DURIN 'UMIES LANTERN SHOW AND PULL A CUNNIN SURPRISE ATTACK -Lancashire Fusiliers circa 2020

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

Right now, a naval and air campaign would be too. They'd destroy most of our airbases in the region within the hour using missiles and probably sink good chunks of any carrier groups that tried to get into striking distance of mainland targets.

While I think threat inflation is a neolib meme used to cut military spending, I think that is, ever so slightly, an exaggeration of the threat. It runs on the assumption that the Chinese will have the element of surprise AND that they will know our movements.

Their power is increasing relative to yours. US is still a good bet.

But as I said before, war is not predictable, rarely turns out the way you want it to even against the weakest of enemies, and often the best laid plans simply don't work or backfire in contact with an organised opponent. It's not sufficient to line up the tonnes of warships and warheads on paper and claim one side would win or the other. There's many many other factors at play.

[Proctopeo]

Tbh we should sack Beijing if a war breaks out.

What degree of sacking are we talking about?

Also loling at the guy who has a reference to slaughtering most of China's population and enslaving the rest in his sig calling me an apologist for imperialism.

Take it from me on this, you come off very much like an apologist for PRC imperialism.

Yes, but using memes in a private chat is obviously tongue-in-cheek and won't ever be seen by potential Iranian dissidents.

"It's okay because I just do it in private" weird flex ok

I mean another difference is of course that most people alive in the West today either know/knew someone around for WWII or knows someone who knew someone that was around for it and also lived in the post-war ramifications. The Third Punic War was over two thousand fucking years ago. I would certainly hope that two thousand years from now, people wouldn't be so purposefully banal that someone making a dark, dumb but dark, joke about needing to "Find a Final Solution to XYZ Question" stirs their inner Karen.

Hell, I'll get started. We need a Final Solution to the Jannie Question. This clearly means I want them all gassed instead of me making a dark, dumb joke.

Fucking hell.

It comes off as ahem petulant and childish.

[Genivaria]

Do you simply exist to bait?

bro you have a pro genocide signature, I wouldnt comment on me "baiting"

Yep uhuh, genocide.
You're hilarious bro.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I shall consult Gork and Mork.

OWZ'BOUT WE TEK A COUPA BOYZ AN PUT'EM IN BIG RED LANTERNS DURIN 'UMIES LANTERN SHOW AND PULL A CUNNIN SURPRISE ATTACK -Lancashire Fusiliers circa 2020

BRUTALLY CUNNIN MISTAH NAILBRAIN

[Senkaku]

Right now, a naval and air campaign would be too. They'd destroy most of our airbases in the region within the hour using missiles and probably sink good chunks of any carrier groups that tried to get into striking distance of mainland targets.

While I think threat inflation is a neolib meme used to cut military spending, I think that is, ever so slightly, an exaggeration of the threat. It runs on the assumption that the Chinese will have the element of surprise AND that they will know our movements.

No- our planes are pretty concentrated at a few known areas (a few bases in the Japanese home islands, Okinawa, Guam). Even if we start the war and have them all in the air when it breaks out, they can still just pound those bases into rubble when our guys land. Our carrier strike aircraft have shorter ranges than a lot of Chinese missiles, and obviously aerial refueling might be difficult in contested airspace.

What we need are some good ol' IRBMs and long-range supersonic cruise missiles.

[Genivaria]

I've noticed support for actually waging war against China and even sacking Beijing and getting Chinese addicted to opium again, not a peep out outrage.

I see the moral outrage is very selective.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

bro you have a pro genocide signature, I wouldnt comment on me "baiting"

Yep uhuh, genocide.
You're hilarious bro.

"that country should be destroyed but all its civilian population will magically avoid death!"

[United Muscovite Nations]

You guys right now:

[Genivaria]

Yep uhuh, genocide.
You're hilarious bro.

"that country should be destroyed but all its civilian population will magically avoid death!"

Yeah we've just spent 3 pages going back and forth on this, if you want to embarrass yourself by yourself feel free.
Have at it buddy.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

I see the moral outrage is very selective.

yes its selective, nobody likes you so they get more angry when you say things like "china should be destroyed," whereas at least UMN and Novus America can see the nuance in each others positions and explain it using sentences.

[Novus America]

I would just bomb the shipyards with tactical warheads to prevent their industry from overtaking our conventional naval superiority. As long as we control the sea, they will grow tired of it before we do. A ground campaign would be a disaster for us.

Right now, a naval and air campaign would be too. They'd destroy most of our airbases in the region within the hour using missiles and probably sink good chunks of any carrier groups that tried to get into striking distance of mainland targets.

Actually our ships are safer. People seem to have the assumption the sea is flat. It is not because the earth is round, (okay technically a very slightly oblate spheroid but whatever).

As such you can only see as far as the horizon, and only shoot at things that are not over the horizon from your sensors (although OTH radars exist the are too inaccurate to target a specific shop, the can only be used fore early warning an being absurd huge, “loud” and immobile easy to counter). The striking range of their missiles (against ships airbases obviously can be shot at with a simple geolocation system as they cannot move) is as only as as long as their sensors.

So ships have the advantage over land based airbases.

[Fahran]

Tbh we should sack Beijing if a war breaks out.

I'm going to lead my sorority in sacking your house, Nap. Imagine a bunch of drunk raccoons spilling out the garbage and bringing death and glitter with them. That's your future. And it is bleak.

[Senkaku]

Right now, a naval and air campaign would be too. They'd destroy most of our airbases in the region within the hour using missiles and probably sink good chunks of any carrier groups that tried to get into striking distance of mainland targets.

Actually our ships are safer. People seem to have the assumption the sea is flat. It is not because the earth is round, (okay technically a very slightly oblate spheroid but whatever).

As such you can only see as far as the horizon, and only shoot at things that are not over the horizon from your sensors (although OTH radars exist the are too inaccurate to target a specific shop, the can only be used fore early warning an being absurd huge, “loud” and immobile easy to counter). The striking range of their missiles (against ships airbases obviously can be shot at with a simple geolocation system as they cannot move) is as only as as long as their sensors.

So ships have the advantage over land based airbases.

Oh, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion (yet) that they'd manage to sink all our ships, at least enough to stop us from bombing the shit out of parts of the mainland. Their ballistic missiles are much vaunted and very impressive, but it's not yet clear they can hit a moving ship at sea (and obviously hitting Okinawa or bases in the Home Islands would bring Japan into the war on our side, which'd be nice). But given the improvements they've made to their navy and air force, as well as their missile forces, I think it's safe to say that an American carrier group in the East China Sea is going to be in some very hot water.

[Genivaria]

Right now, a naval and air campaign would be too. They'd destroy most of our airbases in the region within the hour using missiles and probably sink good chunks of any carrier groups that tried to get into striking distance of mainland targets.

Actually our ships are safer. People seem to have the assumption the sea is flat. It is not because the earth is round, (okay technically a very slightly oblate spheroid but whatever).

As such you can only see as far as the horizon, and only shoot at things that are not over the horizon from your sensors (although OTH radars exist the are too inaccurate to target a specific shop, the can only be used fore early warning an being absurd huge, “loud” and immobile easy to counter). The striking range of their missiles (against ships airbases obviously can be shot at with a simple geolocation system as they cannot move) is as only as as long as their sensors.

So ships have the advantage over land based airbases.

Nice to see that carriers have at least a few more decades of superiority.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The invention of gunpowder was a mistake

[Washington Resistance Army]

The invention of gunpowder was a mistake

Bring back the phalanx.

[Senkaku]

Actually our ships are safer. People seem to have the assumption the sea is flat. It is not because the earth is round, (okay technically a very slightly oblate spheroid but whatever).

As such you can only see as far as the horizon, and only shoot at things that are not over the horizon from your sensors (although OTH radars exist the are too inaccurate to target a specific shop, the can only be used fore early warning an being absurd huge, “loud” and immobile easy to counter). The striking range of their missiles (against ships airbases obviously can be shot at with a simple geolocation system as they cannot move) is as only as as long as their sensors.

So ships have the advantage over land based airbases.

Nice to see that carriers have at least a few more decades of superiority.

It'd be nice if we could get planes on them that can hit things further away, though, so they don't have to go so close to the mainland and all its missile boats and submarines and land-based aircraft and rockets.

[Nap the Magnificent]

Tbh we should sack Beijing if a war breaks out.

I'm going to lead my sorority in sacking your house, Nap. Imagine a bunch of drunk raccoons spilling out the garbage and bringing death and glitter with them. That's your future. And it is bleak.

Your sorority sisters do not know the powers of my seduction. I have trained for many years the great treatise The Full Monty.

[Senkaku]

The invention of gunpowder was a mistake

Bring back the phalanx.

I see your phalanx, and I raise you a repeating crossbow

[United Muscovite Nations]

The invention of gunpowder was a mistake

Bring back the phalanx.

Yes.