RWDT XX: The System Is Kapp Putsch

[Novus America]

Pan Arabism is unworkable today.

I would never propose such an idea. I want multiple Arab nations all led by descendants of the Hashemites because Arab republicanism is super cursed, much like French republicanism.

Unironically a United Arab Kingdom of Jordan, Sunni Arab Syria, Sunni Arab Iraq and maybe the Hejaz would be ideal, but I see no way to actually implement it.

[Fahran]

I would never propose such an idea. I want multiple Arab nations all led by descendants of the Hashemites because Arab republicanism is super cursed, much like French republicanism.

That's silly, no offense.

It's meant to be. On a fundamental level, putting a Hashemite in charge of a place like Syria or Lebanon, where they have no reliable power base, wouldn't really change anything and they'd be overthrown in short order. Don't even get me started on toppling the monarchy of Morocco to replace it with a bunch of Hejazi rulers. That said, had the kingdoms survived and become more democratic in Syria and Iraq, history would probably have been far more pleasant overall.

[United Muscovite Nations]

You said I was an apologist for PRC imperialism but now apparently I'm the one slandering you

Yes were literally justifying PRC hostility against 'the west's with things done by other nations 200 years ago.
Yes you're an apologist for the PRC, honestly I don't know why you just own it.

Saying hostility should be viewed in historical context isn't apologia for imperialism. Taiwan has every right to independence, as they have popular sovereignty and PR China has never extended its sovereignty to the island. Hell, Nap here can confirm that I privately support defensive war in defense of Taiwan should China invade.

Also 1900 was not 200 years ago.

[Italios]

Pan Arabism is unworkable today.

I would never propose such an idea. I want multiple Arab nations all led by descendants of the Hashemites because Arab republicanism is super cursed, much like French republicanism.

reunite brittany and pays de la loire, autonomy for bretons

restore alsace to germany

free northern catalonia

free french basque country

free corsica

macron delenda est

[North German Realm]

I would never propose such an idea. I want multiple Arab nations all led by descendants of the Hashemites because Arab republicanism is super cursed, much like French republicanism.

Unironically a United Arab Kingdom of Jordan, Sunni Arab Syria, Sunni Arab Iraq and maybe the Hejaz would be ideal, but I see no way to actually implement it.

Fund Jordan with enough troops and money to start a war with all three countries and hope nobody else *coughs* Israel *coughs* joins the fun?

[North German Realm]

restore alsace to germany

No Lorraine?

[Senkaku]

You said I was an apologist for PRC imperialism but now apparently I'm the one slandering you

Yes were literally justifying PRC hostility against 'the west's with things done by other nations 200 years ago.
Yes you're an apologist for the PRC, honestly I don't know why you just own it.

UMN is kinda soft on China, but I don't think an honest discussion of Western atrocities against China is the reason why

[Diopolis]

I would never propose such an idea. I want multiple Arab nations all led by descendants of the Hashemites because Arab republicanism is super cursed, much like French republicanism.

While monarchism seems to be working for the Gulf States, I'm not sure if -ignoring Jordan- monarchism would fix the dumpster fires in Syria and Iraq tbh.

Whatever creates a strong and stable central government would go a long way towards fixing the dumpster fires in Iraq and Syria.

[Fahran]

Unironically a United Arab Kingdom of Jordan, Sunni Arab Syria, Sunni Arab Iraq and maybe the Hejaz would be ideal, but I see no way to actually implement it.

Fund Jordan with enough troops and money to start a war with all three countries and hope nobody else *coughs* Israel *coughs* joins the fun?

Abdullah II should be King of Jerusalem. :^)

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yes were literally justifying PRC hostility against 'the west's with things done by other nations 200 years ago.
Yes you're an apologist for the PRC, honestly I don't know why you just own it.

UMN is kinda soft on China, but I don't think an honest discussion of Western atrocities against China is the reason why

I'm "soft" on China because I lean towards pacifism morally. However, my geopolitical views are separate from my moral views, and I acknowledge that the only way to defend Taiwan from PRC aggression may be a formal alliance.

[North German Realm]

Fund Jordan with enough troops and money to start a war with all three countries and hope nobody else *coughs* Israel *coughs* joins the fun?

Abdullah II should be King of Jerusalem. :^)

I mean, I'd support Israel taking over Jordan and annexing it to the West Bank territory as much as the next guy.

While monarchism seems to be working for the Gulf States, I'm not sure if -ignoring Jordan- monarchism would fix the dumpster fires in Syria and Iraq tbh.

Whatever creates a strong and stable central government would go a long way towards fixing the dumpster fires in Iraq and Syria.

That's almost completely impossible in long term. It's possible to temporarily stabilize these countries by pointing an enemy at them that they can hate, but it never sticks long-term.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The point I was making wasn't "holy based, the Chinese are doing what other countries are doing in the 1800's, what based madmen!", I was trying to say that the beast is, in part, of our own making, and that a lot of the international actions and atrocities supported here are things that China is condemned for. The answer is to condemn both, but when we celebrate one (or at least look the other way because it is our own nation doing so), we are saying that we are moral relativists. That is why I said we should clean our own house, and become a truly moral commonwealth, before engaging in foreign adventurism.

[Novus America]

Oh they already are come at us like bats out of Hell, but I am just saying that is no reason for us to not fight back to the best of our abilities.
And again the worst crimes were not even committed by us, but if acknowledging we did some fucked up shit to them in the 1800s would make them feel better we can do so.

It absolutely would make them feel better, I think. Especially for Japan to finally apologize the way Germany has for its wartime atrocities- that would go a long ways not just in China, but also in South Korea. Imo, the Western powers should also apologize, and probably return some looted art.

But do you really think that would stop them? Change their strategies or goals?

I think there's evidence in Europe that it could. It's definitely not a sure thing, but I'd rather try my hand at diplomacy than get caught in a land war in Asia.

The Revanchism is the excuse, not the reason.

I'm aware. I'm suggesting we treat the disease; those suggesting we arm up for a long chain of escalation that will probably end in war are treating the symptoms.

I mean sure Japan should better own up to its historical crimes and what not, but that is hardly the fundamental issue here. And the US is not Japan. Like I said aye the time Japan was doing the worst shit we and Japan were not on the same side... I mean we nuked them.

But I am not a against acknowledging we did wrong and returning some looted art if applicable.

The disease is incurable. So so we can only address the symptoms. The disease is not some historical grievances which are merely a red herring. The disease is that the US and PRC ideologies and goals are mutually exclusive and cannot be reconciled.

Leaving us to take the approach much like we did in the Cold War although again because we did make some big mistakes in the Cold War, despite winning we should not do an exact repeat, but try to do it better.

[Genivaria]

The point I was making wasn't "holy based, the Chinese are doing what other countries are doing in the 1800's, what based madmen!", I was trying to say that the beast is, in part, of our own making, and that a lot of the international actions and atrocities supported here are things that China is condemned for. The answer is to condemn both, but when we celebrate one (or at least look the other way because it is our own nation doing so), we are saying that we are moral relativists. That is why I said we should clean our own house, and become a truly moral commonwealth, before engaging in foreign adventurism.

Look I don't actually give a damn about that anymore.
Retract what you said before and apologize.
Be an adult and we can call this argument done.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The point I was making wasn't "holy based, the Chinese are doing what other countries are doing in the 1800's, what based madmen!", I was trying to say that the beast is, in part, of our own making, and that a lot of the international actions and atrocities supported here are things that China is condemned for. The answer is to condemn both, but when we celebrate one (or at least look the other way because it is our own nation doing so), we are saying that we are moral relativists. That is why I said we should clean our own house, and become a truly moral commonwealth, before engaging in foreign adventurism.

The impulse of "this is a criticism of my country, therefore it is praise or justification of another" is an error of moral relativism. Morality is not a zero-sum game, it is possible to criticize oneself (and one should, or rather, must be critical of themselves), while also acknowledging that others are in error. If I had said "Stalin is engaging in a massive military buildup on the border of Nazi Germany", no one would say "You're an apologist for Nazi imperialism."

[Nap the Magnificent]

I think I've lost count of the times I've seen you use Saddam memes to reference current issues regarding Iran.

Yes, but using memes in a private chat is obviously tongue-in-cheek and won't ever be seen by potential Iranian dissidents.

"It's okay because I just do it in private" weird flex ok

I mean another difference is of course that most people alive in the West today either know/knew someone around for WWII or knows someone who knew someone that was around for it and also lived in the post-war ramifications. The Third Punic War was over two thousand fucking years ago. I would certainly hope that two thousand years from now, people wouldn't be so purposefully banal that someone making a dark, dumb but dark, joke about needing to "Find a Final Solution to XYZ Question" stirs their inner Karen.

Hell, I'll get started. We need a Final Solution to the Jannie Question. This clearly means I want them all gassed instead of me making a dark, dumb joke.

Fucking hell.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The point I was making wasn't "holy based, the Chinese are doing what other countries are doing in the 1800's, what based madmen!", I was trying to say that the beast is, in part, of our own making, and that a lot of the international actions and atrocities supported here are things that China is condemned for. The answer is to condemn both, but when we celebrate one (or at least look the other way because it is our own nation doing so), we are saying that we are moral relativists. That is why I said we should clean our own house, and become a truly moral commonwealth, before engaging in foreign adventurism.

Look I don't actually give a damn about that anymore.
Retract what you said before and apologize.
Be an adult and we can call this argument done.

No, because every argument we've had, you argue like a petulant child until proven wrong. You started doing so here when you called me an apologist for disagreeing with you. You did it last week when called out for saying that paid labor is more expensive than slave labor, and you did so the week before on a topic which I do not remember. I will not apologize for pointing out the connotation of a phrase to you when you start off the conversation by calling me a CCP shill.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yes, but using memes in a private chat is obviously tongue-in-cheek and won't ever be seen by potential Iranian dissidents.

"It's okay because I just do it in private" weird flex ok

I mean another difference is of course that most people alive in the West today either know/knew someone around for WWII or knows someone who knew someone that was around for it and also lived in the post-war ramifications. The Third Punic War was over two thousand fucking years ago. I would certainly hope that two thousand years from now, people wouldn't be so purposefully banal that someone making a dark, dumb but dark, joke about needing to "Find a Final Solution to XYZ Question" stirs their inner Karen.

Hell, I'll get started. We need a Final Solution to the Jannie Question. This clearly means I want them all gassed instead of me making a dark, dumb joke.

Fucking hell.

Geni didn't intend it as a joke.

[Novus America]

The point I was making wasn't "holy based, the Chinese are doing what other countries are doing in the 1800's, what based madmen!", I was trying to say that the beast is, in part, of our own making, and that a lot of the international actions and atrocities supported here are things that China is condemned for. The answer is to condemn both, but when we celebrate one (or at least look the other way because it is our own nation doing so), we are saying that we are moral relativists. That is why I said we should clean our own house, and become a truly moral commonwealth, before engaging in foreign adventurism.

Defending our existing interest is not “adventurism”.
And again why clean your house if a Forrest fire sweeping your neighborhood is going to hit your house?

You cannot separate foreign and domestic affairs completely. They are very much intertwined so you have to fix both. Domestic flaw weaken you in foreign policy true, but they same applies in reverse, foreign policy weakness will exacerbate domestic flaws.

For example outsourcing. That is both a domestic AND foreign issue. The PRC state sponsored dumping is a PRC policy, but our failure to counter it with adequate sanctions and tariffs is from domestic failures, yet sanctions and tariffs can be considered foreign policy.
Tariffs are really BOTH a foreign and domestic policy.

[Genivaria]

Look I don't actually give a damn about that anymore.
Retract what you said before and apologize.
Be an adult and we can call this argument done.

No, because every argument we've had, you argue like a petulant child until proven wrong. You started doing so here when you called me an apologist for disagreeing with you. You did it last week when called out for saying that paid labor is more expensive than slave labor, and you did so the week before on a topic which I do not remember. I will not apologize for pointing out the connotation of a phrase to you when you start off the conversation by calling me a CCP shill.

Then you are a liar and are too damn prideful to admit when you're wrong.

[Imperium Romanum Sanctis]

The point I was making wasn't "holy based, the Chinese are doing what other countries are doing in the 1800's, what based madmen!", I was trying to say that the beast is, in part, of our own making, and that a lot of the international actions and atrocities supported here are things that China is condemned for. The answer is to condemn both, but when we celebrate one (or at least look the other way because it is our own nation doing so), we are saying that we are moral relativists. That is why I said we should clean our own house, and become a truly moral commonwealth, before engaging in foreign adventurism.

All foreign policy is based on moral relativism though. There's no such thing as a lack of hypocrisy when one country interferes in the affairs of another. It is by default a matter of one country exerting its dominance over a rival.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The point I was making wasn't "holy based, the Chinese are doing what other countries are doing in the 1800's, what based madmen!", I was trying to say that the beast is, in part, of our own making, and that a lot of the international actions and atrocities supported here are things that China is condemned for. The answer is to condemn both, but when we celebrate one (or at least look the other way because it is our own nation doing so), we are saying that we are moral relativists. That is why I said we should clean our own house, and become a truly moral commonwealth, before engaging in foreign adventurism.

Defending our existing interest is not “adventurism”.
And again why clean your house if a Forrest fire sweeping your neighborhood is going to hit your house?

You cannot separate foreign and domestic affairs completely. They are very much intertwined so you have to fix both. Domestic flaw weaken you in foreign policy true, but they same applies in reverse, foreign policy weakness will exacerbate domestic flaws.

For example outsourcing. That is both a domestic AND foreign issue. The PRC state sponsored dumping is a PRC policy, but our failure to counter it with adequate sanctions and tariffs is from domestic failures, yet sanctions and tariffs can be considered foreign policy.
Tariffs are really BOTH a foreign and domestic policy.

I agree, but this is a separate issue from from doing so on a moral grounds.

[Senkaku]

The disease is incurable. So so we can only address the symptoms. The disease is not some historical grievances which are merely a red herring. The disease is that the US and PRC ideologies and goals are mutually exclusive and cannot be reconciled.

You just cited examples of historically opposed countries reconciling, I identified them as trying to cure the underlying disease of nationalist resentment that would have led to another revanchist war. Are you saying, rather, that the US and China must go to war to reach a point where such a reconciliation is possible?

Leaving us to take the approach much like we did in the Cold War although again because we did make some big mistakes in the Cold War, despite winning we should not do an exact repeat, but try to do it better.

The US is too politically divided and overstretched to do what it did in the Cold War, even against a weaker adversary than the Chinese, who are considerably more formidable than the Soviets. Brinkmanship and containment will only lead to them kicking our teeth in and dumping us on the ash heap of history.

The impulse of "this is a criticism of my country, therefore it is praise or justification of another" is an error of moral relativism. Morality is not a zero-sum game, it is possible to criticize oneself (and one should, or rather, must be critical of themselves), while also acknowledging that others are in error.

It's so nice to hear someone besides the tiny screaming voice in the back of my head express this for once lol

[United Muscovite Nations]

No, because every argument we've had, you argue like a petulant child until proven wrong. You started doing so here when you called me an apologist for disagreeing with you. You did it last week when called out for saying that paid labor is more expensive than slave labor, and you did so the week before on a topic which I do not remember. I will not apologize for pointing out the connotation of a phrase to you when you start off the conversation by calling me a CCP shill.

Then you are a liar and are too damn prideful to admit when you're wrong.

You argued with me for 2 hours over whether slavery is cheaper than salaried work until your own source proved you wrong.

[Diopolis]

No, because every argument we've had, you argue like a petulant child until proven wrong. You started doing so here when you called me an apologist for disagreeing with you. You did it last week when called out for saying that paid labor is more expensive than slave labor, and you did so the week before on a topic which I do not remember. I will not apologize for pointing out the connotation of a phrase to you when you start off the conversation by calling me a CCP shill.

Then you are a liar and are too damn prideful to admit when you're wrong.

Gentlemen, gentlemen, there will be no fighting in the war room.
Might I suggest using your ignore buttons?