[POLL] Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual vs. Transexual

[Kannap]

Most of (if not all) the other terms the LGBTQ+ community were invented by Cishets AFAIK.

You can give your opinion, for sure, but if LGBTQ+ people will say that they don't agree with you, then it would be wise to listen to them.

Pretty much this

[Ifreann]

I'm pretty sure that's what you think and you're just projecting it onto society as a whole to make it seem like your argument has more weight.

I can't speak to "most people" and what they may or may not think, but I've never thought that that's what the word meant.

Look, for many, many, many years (if not DECADES) transgender/transgendered/transsexual meant a person who changed their gender identity from male to female or vice-versa. I think that is the definition your average Joe or Jane off the street would give, whether they are cis or "traditionally" trans.

And do you think that the best understanding of what it means to be transgender comes from polling people on the street? I don't.

---

If we need new terminology I expect trans people will let us know what they'd prefer.

Just because I'm a Cishet male doesn't mean I can't give ideas for new terminology for the LGBTQ+ community.

You can do whatever you want, man, but I don't really care about your ideas.

[Purple Rats]

Btw, about this "are non-binaries trans" debate: "trans" means only transsexual / transgender.
"trans*" with an asterisk, can mean every include every noncis person, while talking about community or just wanting to point out "not cis", and not being sure about someones gender.

Although that does not change the fact that most of the nonbinaries does identify as trans. Non Binary is a umbrella term of trans, and that's why it can make lot of people confused about it. But being trans shows already that someone is "binary", as nonbinary shows that someone does not fit into exclusively under the "masculine" and "feminine" term.
Trans have gender identify, non binaries people can also have no gender identify at all. "I identify xxx, and therefor I am nonbinary" or "I don't indetify with any gender, because fuck genders"

I think that's where to confusion comes. Just because someone is not cis, does not automatically make them trans, as identify, but it can make them part of trans* community.

But in the end, it's still most important to just hear out what people who are part of LGBT+ are saying.

[Stanmenistan]

Btw, about this "are non-binaries trans" debate: "trans" means only transsexual / transgender.

Thank you for saying that.

"trans*" with an asterisk, can mean every include every noncis person, while talking about community or just wanting to point out "not cis", and not being sure about someones gender.

I feel like that would be still be misusing a word traditionally used only to refer to transgenders. A little asterisk doesn't change that IMO. Non-Cis may in fact be a better term to refer to both Trans and NBs.

Although that does not change the fact that most of the nonbinaries does identify as trans. Non Binary is a umbrella term of trans, and that's why it can make lot of people confused about it. But being trans shows already that someone is "binary", as nonbinary shows that someone does not fit into exclusively under the "masculine" and "feminine" term.

Most, but not all. The term Assigned Gender Divergent could apply to anyone who doesn't fit with the sex/gender assigned to them by medical professionals at birth. Cis people would be Assigned Gender Aligned (or AGA). I am an AGA Male.

Trans have gender identify, non binaries people can also have no gender identify at all. "I identify xxx, and therefor I am nonbinary" or "I don't indetify with any gender, because fuck genders"

Good point. Transgenders identify within the gender binary whereas NBs don't.

I think that's where to confusion comes. Just because someone is not cis, does not automatically make them trans, as identify, but it can make them part of trans* community

I just don't feel comfortable using the term Trans*. I prefer AGD.

But in the end, it's still most important to just hear out what people who are part of LGBT+ are saying

Yes, but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with them.

[Purple Rats]

Most, but not all. The term Assigned Gender Divergent could apply to anyone who doesn't fit with the sex/gender assigned to them by medical professionals at birth. Cis people would be Assigned Gender Aligned (or AGA). I am an AGA Male.

Why would a "assigned gender aligned" or "aga" be better than "cis" and "cisgender"? Cisgenders do not have to talk about "assigned gender". Only ones who are point out their assigned gender are already people who are not cis. How many cis people are there who say "I am assigned male, and I also identify as male" ? It just does not make any sense.

I just don't feel comfortable using the term Trans*. I prefer AGD.

But in the end, it's still most important to just hear out what people who are part of LGBT+ are saying

Yes, but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with them.

Who gives a shit what do you think, it is not about you, it's about LGBT+ people. It's really disrespectful to them to say that you as cis know better how to call them.

It's kind of same like arguing with black people who have a right to call themselves N word and who not. Let black community decide that. Same way let LGBT+ people decide how they wanna be called, or don't call yourself an "ally".

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Who gives a shit what do you think, it is not about you, it's about LGBT+ people. It's really disrespectful to them to say that you as cis know better how to call them.

It's kind of same like arguing with black people who have a right to call themselves N word and who not. Let black community decide that. Same way let LGBT+ people decide how they wanna be called, or don't call yourself an "ally".

Cisgender bisexual woman here. That’s pretty much it. It’s up to our community, not anyone else.

[Crylante]

Who gives a shit what do you think, it is not about you, it's about LGBT+ people. It's really disrespectful to them to say that you as cis know better how to call them.

It's kind of same like arguing with black people who have a right to call themselves N word and who not. Let black community decide that. Same way let LGBT+ people decide how they wanna be called, or don't call yourself an "ally".

Man, I wish NSG had an upvote/like button.

[Cisairse]

Who gives a shit what do you think, it is not about you, it's about LGBT+ people. It's really disrespectful to them to say that you as cis know better how to call them.

It's kind of same like arguing with black people who have a right to call themselves N word and who not. Let black community decide that. Same way let LGBT+ people decide how they wanna be called, or don't call yourself an "ally".

Man, I wish NSG had an upvote/like button.

Replying with "I wish NSG had a like button" is NSG's like button.

[Nakena]

Man, I wish NSG had an upvote/like button.

Replying with "I wish NSG had a like button" is NSG's like button.

Supposedly it was considered but hard to implement into the board software.

[Stanmenistan]

Most, but not all. The term Assigned Gender Divergent could apply to anyone who doesn't fit with the sex/gender assigned to them by medical professionals at birth. Cis people would be Assigned Gender Aligned (or AGA). I am an AGA Male.

Why would a "assigned gender aligned" or "aga" be better than "cis" and "cisgender"? Cisgenders do not have to talk about "assigned gender". Only ones who are point out their assigned gender are already people who are not cis. How many cis people are there who say "I am assigned male, and I also identify as male" ? It just does not make any sense

Just saying you are Cis/Cisgender is the same thing as saying "I am assigned male, and I also identify as male". If Cis, Trans and NB people all used the term Assigned Gender, we could see how similar we really are. Besides, I'll start saying "I am assigned male, and I also identify as male". It makes perfect sense. If NB people can have dozens of terms to describe themselves, Cis People should too. It's only fair.

I just don't feel comfortable using the term Trans*. I prefer AGD.

But in the end, it's still most important to just hear out what people who are part of LGBT+ are saying

Yes, but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with them.

Who gives a shit what do you think, it is not about you, it's about LGBT+ people. It's really disrespectful to them to say that you as cis know better how to call them

If any trans or NB people I know IRL want me to change what I'm saying, I'll have a conversation with them and my viewpoint. But since I don't know you or any of the other people here, your views have little relevance to my life.

It's kind of same like arguing with black people who have a right to call themselves N word and who not. Let black community decide that. Same way let LGBT+ people decide how they wanna be called, or don't call yourself an "ally".

Distinguishing between the Transgender and NB communities is important. Using the term Trans with an asterisk to describe both is ridiculous idea in my opinion, as NB and Transgender are not the same thing.

To quote myself from another thread:

From my perspective, putting trans men and trans women under the same category as NB people, you're essentially saying they (trans males and trans females) aren't "fully" men or "fully" women or that transness is a third gender. And that's something not all Transgender people agree with, in fact many would find it offensive.

It can be hard knowing the other people who make this distinction are mostly those who call NB people "Transtrenders". I would never insult an NB person like that, but I do feel like they shouldn't use the term transgender as they are not really the same thing.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Replying with "I wish NSG had a like button" is NSG's like button.

Supposedly it was considered but hard to implement into the board software.

The only proper way to measure the net amount of like would be donations anyway

[Liriena]

How do I say this gently?

"Dropping the T" is peak bird-brained shit. Trans people have been fighting by our side since the fucking beginning of the LGBT+ rights movement. Trans people were victimized by the same bigots as we were every single time. Being gay and being trans aren't the same thing, but the cause has been the same since forever.

Also, organized attempts to encourage LGB people to "drop the T" have always, ALWAYS, ended up being part of right-wing astroturfing. We LGB people won't be any safer from discrimination if we force trans people out of our community, such as it is.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Most of (if not all) the other terms the LGBTQ+ community were invented by Cishets AFAIK.

You can give your opinion, for sure, but if LGBTQ+ people will say that they don't agree with you, then it would be wise to listen to them.

Of course. If you don't listen then it's not a conversation but just a succession of repeated assertions that don't get to the heart of why you disagree. May be that no-one changes viewpoints and that people won't comply with what you're asking of them but it's more productive than never getting past the nuh-uhs to the whys and wherefores.

[Purple Rats]

To quote myself from another thread:

From my perspective, putting trans men and trans women under the same category as NB people, you're essentially saying they (trans males and trans females) aren't "fully" men or "fully" women or that transness is a third gender. And that's something not all Transgender people agree with, in fact many would find it offensive.

It can be hard knowing the other people who make this distinction are mostly those who call NB people "Transtrenders". I would never insult an NB person like that, but I do feel like they shouldn't use the term transgender as they are not really the same thing.

nonbinaries are not using the term transgender about themselves. Maybe look up at "umbrella term".

Anyway, alrgiht, don't use "trans*" then. Just say cis, trans, nonbinaries. Or if the topic is not about assigned genders anyway, just say men/women (which includes trans), and nonbinary.

I really don't see any reason why we would start to use "AGA", or why would trans people be seperated from LGBT coummities.

THEY WERE. and then people realzised they have same fight. If you push them away, then they alone again with their struggles.

[Cisairse]

Replying with "I wish NSG had a like button" is NSG's like button.

Supposedly it was considered but hard to implement into the board software.

I know a few forums which have them, but none are based on phpbb as far as I know.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Supposedly it was considered but hard to implement into the board software.

I know a few forums which have them, but none are based on phpbb as far as I know.

IIRC, I think the deal was to have a like and a dislike button and the mods thought that would cause more problematic than not.

[Heloin]

Supposedly it was considered but hard to implement into the board software.

I know a few forums which have them, but none are based on phpbb as far as I know.

Too much work and not really worth the kind of effort it could cause moderation side.

[Cisairse]

I know a few forums which have them, but none are based on phpbb as far as I know.

IIRC, I think the deal was to have a like and a dislike button and the mods thought that would cause more problematic than not.

Definitely. On the Paradox forums they have three possible reactions - "Agree", "Respectfully Disagree", and "Helpful". I think that's better than just "Like" and "Dislike". But for NS in particular, I feel like they wouldn't jive with the culture.

[Necroghastia]

Is there actually a source out there that says how many NB people don't view themselves as trans? I know a couple people linked that Stonewall article, but that doesn't provide numbers at all. I know a lot of enbies do view themselves as trans, and would be insulted if you tried to say otherwise.

[Cisairse]

Is there actually a source out there that says how many NB people don't view themselves as trans? I know a couple people linked that Stonewall article, but that doesn't provide numbers at all. I know a lot of enbies do view themselves as trans, and would be insulted if you tried to say otherwise.

I can't imagine you could seriously study this.

[Kannap]

Is there actually a source out there that says how many NB people don't view themselves as trans? I know a couple people linked that Stonewall article, but that doesn't provide numbers at all. I know a lot of enbies do view themselves as trans, and would be insulted if you tried to say otherwise.

I imagine there isn't a study on it, as it would be a very difficult topic to really get answers on.

In general LGBT+ studies, transgender people are already believed to be underreported because of fears of harassment or discrimination.

[Cekoviu]

Is there actually a source out there that says how many NB people don't view themselves as trans? I know a couple people linked that Stonewall article, but that doesn't provide numbers at all. I know a lot of enbies do view themselves as trans, and would be insulted if you tried to say otherwise.

I can't imagine you could seriously study this.

You certainly could and it'd be a hell of a lot more valuable than quite a bit of literature in gender studies.

[Stanmenistan]

nonbinaries are not using the term transgender about themselves. Maybe look up at "umbrella term"

I know what Umbrella term means.

Anyway, alrgiht, don't use "trans*" then. Just say cis, trans, nonbinaries. Or if the topic is not about assigned genders anyway, just say men/women (which includes trans), and nonbinary.

Yes, of course, men/women (which includes trans), and nonbinary should be used in that context. And cis, trans and nonbinaries are also perfectly valid terms. Just as AGA and AGD are.

I really don't see any reason why we would start to use "AGA", or why would trans people be seperated from LGBT communities.

THEY WERE. and then people realzised they have same fight. If you push them away, then they alone again with their struggles.

I never suggested the LGB, Trans and NB communities should be separated, simply that Transgender and Non-Binary are different things. As an Egalitarian, I believe we should all work together until freedom and equality is achieved for all.

I can't imagine you could seriously study this.

You certainly could and it'd be a hell of a lot more valuable than quite a bit of literature in gender studies.

[No walls]

bump

[Juristonia]

Why are you bumping an active thread?