NationStates

Agarntrop wrote:

Cisairse wrote:
I shouldn't have to explain to you that wikipedia is no more authoritative than anecdotes from people with knowledge of the thing the articles talk about.

But if you insist on using Wikipedia, you'll find that their article on non-binary gender leaves open the possibility for non-binary individuals to not be transgender.

Yes, if theyre intersex

Nah.

Cisairse wrote:

Agarntrop wrote:Yes, if theyre intersex

Nah.

What then? If theyre not trans even though they evidently they are they arent because they say they are and you are what you say your are because this is cloud cuckoo land where if you identify as a wardrobe that automatically makes you a wardrobe and if anyone disagrees they should be locked up for hate speech?

Agarntrop wrote:

Cisairse wrote:
Nah.

What then? If theyre not trans even though they evidently they are they arent because they say they are and you are what you say your are

Consider this:

Transgender people are transgender because their gender identity is opposed to their sex assigned at birth.

For some non-binary people, they simply lack gender identity entirely, or have a gender identity that overlaps with their sex assigned at birth, but does not completely follow it without being opposed.

For these non-binary people, they are not transgender. There are transgender non-binary people. There are also non-transgender non-binary people. This is not a difficult concept.

Agarntrop wrote:because this is cloud cuckoo land where if you identify as a wardrobe that automatically makes you a wardrobe and if anyone disagrees they should be locked up for hate speech?

I was under the impression that you were interested in rational discussion. Was I mistaken?

Cisairse wrote:

Agarntrop wrote:What then? If theyre not trans even though they evidently they are they arent because they say they are and you are what you say your are

Consider this:

Transgender people are transgender because their gender identity is opposed to their sex assigned at birth.

For some non-binary people, they simply lack gender identity entirely, or have a gender identity that overlaps with their sex assigned at birth, but does not completely follow it without being opposed.

For these non-binary people, they are not transgender. There are transgender non-binary people. There are also non-transgender non-binary people. This is not a difficult concept.

Agarntrop wrote:because this is cloud cuckoo land where if you identify as a wardrobe that automatically makes you a wardrobe and if anyone disagrees they should be locked up for hate speech?

I was under the impression that you were interested in rational discussion. Was I mistaken?

can you stop being so fucking condescending? and gender identity is an intergerial thing, so what you are saying is irrational

Agarntrop wrote:

Kannap wrote:
Bzzzzz wrongo.

While some nonbinary people are transgender, not all of them are.

I agree, intersex people are nonbinary and not transgender, so we're on the same page.

We're not on the same page.

Agarntrop wrote:

Cisairse wrote:
I shouldn't have to explain to you that wikipedia is no more authoritative than anecdotes from people with knowledge of the thing the articles talk about.

But if you insist on using Wikipedia, you'll find that their article on non-binary gender leaves open the possibility for non-binary individuals to not be transgender.

Yes, if theyre intersex

I'd say reread the article but I know you didn't bother to read it the first time.

Ifreann wrote:

Stanmenistan wrote:Whilst Sexuality and Gender Identity are different things of course, the struggles of the LGB and Trans communities are intimately linked and always have been. That's why they are "grouped together as one community", because that's what LGB and Trans people did themselves for decades; they helped each other out and were there to support each other.


Personally, I distinguish between the two. To me, a transgender person is someone who transitioned between being male and being female (the two "primary" or "main" genders for lack of a better term) or vice versa, while an NB person is someone who's gender identity is a combination of the two, varies in some other way or neither etc. Stonewall even says some NB people don't see themselves as Trans.

So what's a cisgender person, in your mind? Someone who cisitioned?

No, a cisgender person is someone who agrees with the sex/gender identity they were assigned at birth.

---

From my perspective, putting trans men and trans women under the same category as NB people, you're essentially saying they (trans males and trans females) aren't "fully" men or "fully" women or that transness is a third gender. And that's something not all Transgender people agree with, in fact many would find it offensive.

I dunno people. I'm just a cishet male who supports trans and NB rights. I don't know many Trans or NB people personally or that closely though. It can be hard knowing the other people who make this distinction are mostly those who call NB people "Transtrenders". I would never insult an NB person like that, but I do feel like they shouldn't use the term transgender as they are not really the same thing.

Agarntrop wrote:

Cisairse wrote:
Consider this:

Transgender people are transgender because their gender identity is opposed to their sex assigned at birth.

For some non-binary people, they simply lack gender identity entirely, or have a gender identity that overlaps with their sex assigned at birth, but does not completely follow it without being opposed.

For these non-binary people, they are not transgender. There are transgender non-binary people. There are also non-transgender non-binary people. This is not a difficult concept.



I was under the impression that you were interested in rational discussion. Was I mistaken?

can you stop being so fucking condescending?

That's a tall order from someone who moments ago accused me of wanting to "lock up" people for not viewing people as equivalent to wardrobes.

Agarntrop wrote: and gender identity is an intergerial thing, so what you are saying is irrational

"Intergerial" isn't in my dictionary. Also, what I am saying is backed by people actually living through these experiences, and also by the only source you have managed to post so far.

Agarntrop wrote:

Cisairse wrote:
Consider this:

Transgender people are transgender because their gender identity is opposed to their sex assigned at birth.

For some non-binary people, they simply lack gender identity entirely, or have a gender identity that overlaps with their sex assigned at birth, but does not completely follow it without being opposed.

For these non-binary people, they are not transgender. There are transgender non-binary people. There are also non-transgender non-binary people. This is not a difficult concept.



I was under the impression that you were interested in rational discussion. Was I mistaken?

can you stop being so fucking condescending? and gender identity is an intergerial thing, so what you are saying is irrational

I don't see where explaining what you've continually refused to listen to as the correct distinction between trans and enby people is condescending.

Necroghastia wrote:

Crockerland wrote:I don't have any issue with the T (though the T seems to take issue with the LGB frequently) but everything after "LGBTI" should be dropped, the "Q",

Nah. Some people ID as queer, and that's valid.

No, it's not "valid" to identify as an offensive slur to be edgy.

Necroghastia wrote:

the "P",

Nope. Some people ID as pan, and that's valid.

People can "ID" as whatever they want, it won't change the fact that there are four sexual orientations (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and asexual).

Necroghastia wrote:

the "NB",

NB people typically fall under the trans umbrella... I'm not aware of a variation of the acronym that includes NB people specifically.

Let's keep it that way.

Necroghastia wrote:

the "D",

The what now?

"Demisexual."

Necroghastia wrote:

the polyamorous straight people acting like they should be included, the fetishists, exhibitionists, and sexual predators at pride parades giving everyone else a bad name, along with NAMBLA or related movements and anyone who associates with them or supports them in any way.

And the rest of this has nothing to do with acronyms at all.

Or with the LGBT community.

Necroghastia wrote:Curious you leave the A out, though...

Well, Asexuals are one of the three sexual orientation minority groups and share victimization with LGB people from so-called conversion "therapy" and related practices, so I suppose Asexual people should probably be included.

Crockerland wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:Nah. Some people ID as queer, and that's valid.

No, it's not "valid" to identify as an offensive slur to be edgy.

Necroghastia wrote:Nope. Some people ID as pan, and that's valid.

People can "ID" as whatever they want, it won't change the fact that there are four sexual orientations (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and asexual).

Necroghastia wrote:NB people typically fall under the trans umbrella... I'm not aware of a variation of the acronym that includes NB people specifically.

Let's keep it that way.

Necroghastia wrote:The what now?

"Demisexual."

Necroghastia wrote:And the rest of this has nothing to do with acronyms at all.

Or with the LGBT community.

Necroghastia wrote:Curious you leave the A out, though...

Well, Asexuals are one of the three sexual orientation minority groups and share victimization with LGB people from so-called conversion "therapy" and related practices, so I suppose Asexual people should probably be included.

this is probably the only time ive found myself in agreement with crocker... but yes.

Stanmenistan wrote:

Ifreann wrote:So what's a cisgender person, in your mind? Someone who cisitioned?

No, a cisgender person is someone who agrees with the sex/gender identity they were assigned at birth.

If the "trans" in "transgender" refers to transition, what does the "cis" in "cisgender" refer to?

Ifreann wrote:

Stanmenistan wrote:No, a cisgender person is someone who agrees with the sex/gender identity they were assigned at birth.

If the "trans" in "transgender" refers to transition, what does the "cis" in "cisgender" refer to?

Gallia Cisalpina, obviously.

Ifreann wrote:

Stanmenistan wrote:No, a cisgender person is someone who agrees with the sex/gender identity they were assigned at birth.

If the "trans" in "transgender" refers to transition, what does the "cis" in "cisgender" refer to?

Cisgender has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning "on this side of"
You can use the term "non-trans" or "Binary" if you prefer.

I think a better term to describe both Transgenders and NBs would be Birth Gender Variant people or Birth Gender Divergent People (I know Gender Variant is sometimes considered a NB identity, but I am using it in the sense that both Trans and NB people are identify as different genders to those they were assigned at birth; hence Birth Gender Variant). It's a bit of a mouthful, but it describes both groups fairly in my eyes.

Stanmenistan wrote:

Ifreann wrote:If the "trans" in "transgender" refers to transition, what does the "cis" in "cisgender" refer to?

Cisgender has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning "on this side of"
You can use the term "non-trans" or "Binary" if you prefer.

I think a better term to describe both Transgenders and NBs would be Birth Gender Variant people. It's a bit of a mouthful, but it describes both groups fairly in my eyes.

You do know that the "trans" in transgender comes from a similar latin prefix, right? It doesn't mean "transition" in any way.

Crockerland wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:Nah. Some people ID as queer, and that's valid.

No, it's not "valid" to identify as an offensive slur to be edgy.

Good thing that's not what queer people are doing, then.

Necroghastia wrote:Nope. Some people ID as pan, and that's valid.

People can "ID" as whatever they want, it won't change the fact that there are four sexual orientations (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and asexual).

And some people prefer the distinction of IDing as pan. It costs nothing to respect that decision.

Necroghastia wrote:NB people typically fall under the trans umbrella... I'm not aware of a variation of the acronym that includes NB people specifically.

Let's keep it that way.

So why even bring it up?

Necroghastia wrote:The what now?

"Demisexual."

Ah, another thing that costs nothing to respect.

Necroghastia wrote:And the rest of this has nothing to do with acronyms at all.

Or with the LGBT community.

So why bring it up?

Necroghastia wrote:Curious you leave the A out, though...

Well, Asexuals are one of the three sexual orientation minority groups and share victimization with LGB people from so-called conversion "therapy" and related practices, so I suppose Asexual people should probably be included.

Oh, finally something sensible. Better than nothing I suppose.

Cisairse wrote:

Stanmenistan wrote:Cisgender has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning "on this side of"
You can use the term "non-trans" or "Binary" if you prefer.

I think a better term to describe both Transgenders and NBs would be Birth Gender Variant people. It's a bit of a mouthful, but it describes both groups fairly in my eyes.

You do know that the "trans" in transgender comes from a similar latin prefix, right? It doesn't mean "transition" in any way.

I know what Trans means in Rome, Cisairse. I'm talking about what it means to the rest of the world.

Albrenia wrote:I did hear about studies that many trans people have brains which function like that of someone of the gender they feel they are, rather than the one their body resembles. So there's that.

Would seem to imply that it's not a problem of a delusion at all, but of them literally being born with a body their brain isn't... what's the word... 'supposed' to inhabit? Would seem perfectly reasonable to help modify their body to the appropriate state in that circumstance.

You do realize that this is literally a socially conservative position, right? We've long moved past trans-medicalism.

Necroghastia wrote:

Crockerland wrote:No, it's not "valid" to identify as an offensive slur to be edgy.

Good thing that's not what queer people are doing, then.

That's definitely how it comes across.

Ah, another thing that costs nothing to respect.

"Demisexual" is kinda just a label for the sake of a label, and not really anything related to "LGBT"

Riria wrote:

Albrenia wrote:I did hear about studies that many trans people have brains which function like that of someone of the gender they feel they are, rather than the one their body resembles. So there's that.

Would seem to imply that it's not a problem of a delusion at all, but of them literally being born with a body their brain isn't... what's the word... 'supposed' to inhabit? Would seem perfectly reasonable to help modify their body to the appropriate state in that circumstance.

You do realize that this is literally a socially conservative position, right? We've long moved past trans-medicalism.

The royal "we" is not appropriate here, Riria.

Proctopeo wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:Good thing that's not what queer people are doing, then.

That's definitely how it comes across.

It really isn't.

Ah, another thing that costs nothing to respect.

"Demisexual" is kinda just a label for the sake of a label, and not really anything related to "LGBT"

It's on the asexuality spectrum, so...

Proctopeo wrote:

Riria wrote:
You do realize that this is literally a socially conservative position, right? We've long moved past trans-medicalism.

The royal "we" is not appropriate here, Riria.

I think it was rather obvious that the "we" was a stand-in for progressives, not for every single person.

Necroghastia wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:That's definitely how it comes across.

It really isn't.

To you, maybe, but your experiences aren't universal.
Personally I don't mind it all that much, but I don't see it as a useful term to apply to myself, largely due to its implications. That and it sounds dumb.

"Demisexual" is kinda just a label for the sake of a label, and not really anything related to "LGBT"

It's on the asexuality spectrum, so...

Unlike asexuality, "I'm only sexually attracted to people I make a connection with" isn't actually... anything? Again, it's a label for the sake of having a label.

Riria wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:
The royal "we" is not appropriate here, Riria.

I think it was rather obvious that the "we" was a stand-in for progressives, not for every single person.

So instead of the royal "we", it's assuming an entire group is a monolith.
I'm not sure if that's better or worse.

Proctopeo wrote:

Riria wrote:
I think it was rather obvious that the "we" was a stand-in for progressives, not for every single person.

So instead of the royal "we", it's assuming an entire group is a monolith.
I'm not sure if that's better or worse.

You don't need to see it as a monolithic structure to observe that there is pretty uncontroversial consesus among progressives that transmedicalism is a backwards ideology.

It would be like saying that atheists need to be a monolith to be against creationism.

Necroghastia wrote:

Crockerland wrote:No, it's not "valid" to identify as an offensive slur to be edgy.

Good thing that's not what queer people are doing, then.

It is though.

Necroghastia wrote:

People can "ID" as whatever they want, it won't change the fact that there are four sexual orientations (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and asexual).

And some people prefer the distinction of IDing as pan. It costs nothing to respect that decision.

Necroghastia wrote:

Let's keep it that way.

So why even bring it up?

So we can keep it the way it is now as far as discluding NB people.

Necroghastia wrote:

"Demisexual."

Ah, another thing that costs nothing to respect.

Being free really doesn't make legitimizing attention-seeking labels any more appealing.

Necroghastia wrote:

Or with the LGBT community.

So why bring it up?

It's quick, it's easy, and it's free.

Necroghastia wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:That's definitely how it comes across.

It really isn't.

"Demisexual" is kinda just a label for the sake of a label, and not really anything related to "LGBT"

It's on the asexuality spectrum, so...

There is no "asexuality spectrum." You're attracted to people of one gender, attracted to people of both genders, or you aren't attracted to either.