[POLL] Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual vs. Transexual

[Stanmenistan]

Well given that the largest group I've seen do that is my home country's "LGB Alliance", who spend very little time actually focusing on issues affecting lesbian, gay or bisexual people and spend more time harrassing transgender people, trying to do as such does not seem to particularly work.

There's also the fact that while the UK has made significant progress on LGB rights (not that we're particularly close to equality, I can tell you from personal experience), our record on transgender rights and how transgender people are treated in society is pretty awful, and to abandon them as they get harassed by traditionalists and TERFs who also lobby to try and stop legislation to better protect their rights, reeks of "got mine fuck yours" and "I'm alright Jack" and those are not attitudes I think should be being endorsed.

We certainly stand stronger together than shattered apart like some people want. As long as we're all still pushing for equality, we should continue pushing together.

Thank you Sir.

Whilst campaigns specifically for Trans and NB rights may be necessary, I see no reason for Trans and NB people to be excluded from the wider LGB community. People like Marsha P Johnson and Henrietta Robinson may have been Non-Binary or Transgender, but the gay rights movement would not be the same without them. LGB and Trans struggles are intimately connected. To sever them at this stage would, in my eyes, be giving bigots like Julie Bindel and Get the L Out what they want. And they don't deserve that.

[Vassenor]

We certainly stand stronger together than shattered apart like some people want. As long as we're all still pushing for equality, we should continue pushing together.

Thank you Sir.

Whilst campaigns specifically for Trans and NB rights may be necessary, I see no reason for Trans and NB people to be excluded from the wider LGB community. People like Marsha P Johnson and Henrietta Robinson may have been Non-Binary or Transgender, but the gay rights movement would not be the same without them. LGB and Trans struggles are intimately connected. To sever them at this stage would, in my eyes, be giving bigots like Julie Bindel and Get the L Out what they want. And they don't deserve that.

Especially since the TERFs keep repackaging old homophobic rhetoric.

[Kaj Migawageordia]

LGB rights movement pushes for pride and acceptance of who you are and the way you were born. The T movement pushes for rejection of who you are and the way you were born. The two don't go together.

[Cisairse]

Nice alt

[Vassenor]

LGB rights movement pushes for pride and acceptance of who you are and the way you were born. The T movement pushes for rejection of who you are and the way you were born. The two don't go together.

OK.

[Kannap]

LGB rights movement pushes for pride and acceptance of who you are and the way you were born. The T movement pushes for rejection of who you are and the way you were born. The two don't go together.

lol alright

[Kiruri]

QUESTION: Should the Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual (LGB) movement, and all its problems, activisms and issues, be treated/dealt with separately from the Transexual (and other) movement(s)?

This question is obviously for those who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transexual or whatever other letter we have in the acronym. However, those who do not identify as such are welcomed to input so long as it remains constructive and respectful (although, this should go without saying, everyone should remain constructive and respectful).

Firstly, I feel I need to nail my colours to the mast - I am a gay man. I am grateful to have left a country that criminalises homosexuality to a country that is generally accepting of it. I also have never taken part in activism or protests of any kind in relation to the LGBTQIA+++ movement. I've never attended pride marches and never really paid any special attention to the LGBTQIA+++ movement, though I recognise I enjoy the fruits of its labour by being able to live in an accepting country.

Nevertheless, I sometimes feel uneasy about lumping LGB people and TQIA+++ people together because ultimately, they deal with different matters. In the former case, they deal with people who are sexually attracted to someone of the same gender, or of both genders, whereas the latter case deals with people with gender dysphoria who do not feel comfortable in their biological sex. Additionally, the modern LGBTQIA+++ movement is filled with people advancing claims about gender spectrums, or hundreds of different genders other than male and female gender, etc. that the entire movement has really become rather confusing and has since moved away from a debate and discussion about people who just want to love each other, to questioning some very fundamental beliefs about the male and female "gender binary". As such, I personally feel that the LGB movement and the TQIA+++ movement(s) should be separated.

I personally do not agree with assertions about the existence gender spectrums and multiple genders. However, I believe that if these people wish to have a movement, they should be allowed to and, in a free western country like the one that I currently live in, they should be entitled to. I just do not think their movement should be conflated with that of Lesbian, Gays, and Bisexuals, who (based on my own personal experience) want nothing more than to be accepted for being attracted to the same-sex, and want nothing to do with this whole confusion regarding tearing down the male female gender binary and replacing it with gender spectrums and multiple gender identities.

Interesting point of view on the matter, I must say. To be frank, though, LGBTIQ+ is pretty much an umbrella term and the movement itself, in my honest opinion, is already very much on a 'per letter' basis.

I believe we are all aware of the prominence of the G in the acronym, to the point that most everyone in and out of the larger community, consider Pride Parades Gay Parades. But as someone who is an active member of the wider LGBTIQ+ movement, I have to say that individual group interests within the wider community are being managed at a more independent level. Which is amazing, to be frank. We all have common goals that we can advance together; but there are individual interests best handled mostly apart from one another. I would agree that it would be best to separate some things from a wider movement focused more on the G in LGBT and I think that's were things are now; may not look like it, but behind the scenes it pretty much is.

[Ifreann]

Honestly this just seems like another classic case of a white person telling a mixed race gay person how they're supposed to feel.

Congrats to Therm on getting a fan.

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I certainly understand why a seemingly ever growing amount of LGB people want to disassociate from the T and others such letters of the acronym. Republicans told us gay marriage was going to be a slippery slope and advocates for it at the time said that was insanity but it's been proven true. Given the declining support for LGBT+ peoples and groups it makes a certain amount of sense that the people who've already won their rights want to jump ship to try and preserve them.

As for whether that should happen or not I can't really say. It doesn't impact me in any way and I have no firm opinions on it really.

Siding with the people who want to take away your rights to protect your rights.

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I'm a mixed race gay person and I'm with Ifreann on this.

You’re not gay.

Therm talking to me: "You can't tell me how to think, straight white oppressor!"
Therm talking to Necroghastia: "Let me explain to you what your sexual orientation is"

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While support overall for LGBT+ rights is declining support for just LGB issues remains the same. Which really leads you to think why the hell you should allow the T+ to drag your group down.

Once we cast away the transgender crowd and they get trounced by anti-trans political movements, are those anti-trans political movements going to just dissolve at the end or are we going to have to draw straws to figure out if lesbians, gays, or bisexuals are next on the chopping block?

My money's on butch lesbians going under the bus seconds after trans people, because TERFs think that only stereotypical tradwives are real women.

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Oh boy the Necroghastia's sexuality expert has logged on.

I am having a gay time tonight.

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That doesnt sounds as bad as some people made it.

I am generally deeply sceptical about surgeries in this context. But thats me.

I’ve never really been a big fan of most surgeries or medications in relation to mental health. I think Electro-shock therapy is cruel and we shouldn’t be drugging up everyone who might have a mental health issue. Therapy needs to be expanded more than we currently are

Yeah man, conversion therapy is the way for the way forward.

Wait...

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*** 14-day ban for Trolling and Flamebait ***
Trolling for the "transwomen aren't women" bit, and flamebaiting for basically deliberately mis-gendering Necroghastia.

A gender-neutral term like "they" is misgendering?

How fragile is this community, exactly?

What if I told you that it's possible for a word to be both wrong and gender neutral?

[Washington Resistance Army]

I certainly understand why a seemingly ever growing amount of LGB people want to disassociate from the T and others such letters of the acronym. Republicans told us gay marriage was going to be a slippery slope and advocates for it at the time said that was insanity but it's been proven true. Given the declining support for LGBT+ peoples and groups it makes a certain amount of sense that the people who've already won their rights want to jump ship to try and preserve them.

As for whether that should happen or not I can't really say. It doesn't impact me in any way and I have no firm opinions on it really.

Siding with the people who want to take away your rights to protect your rights.

That's assuming they still want to take away gay marriage, which even amongst the most hard right circles isn't really a thing with a ton of opposition anymore. Some Christian types might bitch and moan about it still but not many people really care anymore. Nowadays the opposition is just generally against trans peoples and the awful optics of the LGBT movement.

[Cisairse]

Siding with the people who want to take away your rights to protect your rights.

That's assuming they still want to take away gay marriage, which even amongst the most hard right circles isn't really a thing with a ton of opposition anymore. Some Christian types might bitch and moan about it still but not many people really care anymore. Nowadays the opposition is just generally against trans peoples and the awful optics of the LGBT movement.

Gay marriage was legalized in the States less than five years ago. There are absolutely still a very large number of people who want to reban it.

[Washington Resistance Army]

That's assuming they still want to take away gay marriage, which even amongst the most hard right circles isn't really a thing with a ton of opposition anymore. Some Christian types might bitch and moan about it still but not many people really care anymore. Nowadays the opposition is just generally against trans peoples and the awful optics of the LGBT movement.

Gay marriage was legalized in the States less than five years ago. There are absolutely still a very large number of people who want to reban it.

There really honestly aren't. Like, I interact with a LOT of right leaning people, and only the most hardcore boomer fundie Christians care anymore.

[Ifreann]

Siding with the people who want to take away your rights to protect your rights.

That's assuming they still want to take away gay marriage, which even amongst the most hard right circles isn't really a thing with a ton of opposition anymore. Some Christian types might bitch and moan about it still but not many people really care anymore. Nowadays the opposition is just generally against trans peoples and the awful optics of the LGBT movement.

Of course they still want to take away gay marriage. They might say it less, since they know it's a losing prospect, but that doesn't mean they don't want it any more.

[Cisairse]

Gay marriage was legalized in the States less than five years ago. There are absolutely still a very large number of people who want to reban it.

There really honestly aren't. Like, I interact with a LOT of right leaning people, and only the most hardcore boomer fundie Christians care anymore.

Pew says 31% of Americans oppose the legality of same-sex marriage, which equates to about 65 million adults. That's more people than voted for Donald Trump in his successful presidential bid.

[Agarntrop]

That's assuming they still want to take away gay marriage, which even amongst the most hard right circles isn't really a thing with a ton of opposition anymore. Some Christian types might bitch and moan about it still but not many people really care anymore. Nowadays the opposition is just generally against trans peoples and the awful optics of the LGBT movement.

Gay marriage was legalized in the States less than five years ago. There are absolutely still a very large number of people who want to reban it.

Being a homosexual was literally a crime in several states until 2003 and is still criminalised in a lot of their statutes.

[Albrenia]

Why would the people who wanted to not allow gay marriage a few years ago suddenly be fine with it now? Bigots aren't known for dropping their prejudices that easily.

[Agarntrop]

Why would the people who wanted to not allow gay marriage a few years ago suddenly be fine with it now? Bigots aren't known for dropping their prejudices that easily.

Politicians like to get behind change once they know its inevitable.

[Washington Resistance Army]

There really honestly aren't. Like, I interact with a LOT of right leaning people, and only the most hardcore boomer fundie Christians care anymore.

Pew says 31% of Americans oppose the legality of same-sex marriage, which equates to about 65 million adults. That's more people than voted for Donald Trump in his successful presidential bid.

I feel that actually pretty clearly shows my point. Sure some people are still against it, but give it another decade and it'll probably be ~10% who do. It's not a politically relevant position anymore, nobody is going to try and get rid of gay marriage.

[Albrenia]

Pew says 31% of Americans oppose the legality of same-sex marriage, which equates to about 65 million adults. That's more people than voted for Donald Trump in his successful presidential bid.

I feel that actually pretty clearly shows my point. Sure some people are still against, but give it another decade and it'll probably be ~10% who do. It's not a politically relevant position anymore, nobody is going to try and get rid of gay marriage.

That would be a good thing, imho. More reasonable people is always a good thing.

Is there any chance of people supporting banning gay marriage if they don't leave the trans folks to the wolves though?

[Cisairse]

Why would the people who wanted to not allow gay marriage a few years ago suddenly be fine with it now? Bigots aren't known for dropping their prejudices that easily.

Politicians like to get behind change once they know its inevitable.

Politicians are even more of a minority than LGBT people are.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I feel that actually pretty clearly shows my point. Sure some people are still against, but give it another decade and it'll probably be ~10% who do. It's not a politically relevant position anymore, nobody is going to try and get rid of gay marriage.

That would be a good thing, imho. More reasonable people is always a good thing.

Is there any chance of people supporting banning gay marriage if they don't leave the trans folks to the wolves though?

Maybe not gay marriage specifically but there is a fair amount of polling showing people are becoming less and less supportive of the LGBT+ movement. My personal opinion on why is just the awful optics of it in the US and the fears of a never ending slippery slope, which I'm not really sure how the latter bit could be handled.

[Ifreann]

Pew says 31% of Americans oppose the legality of same-sex marriage, which equates to about 65 million adults. That's more people than voted for Donald Trump in his successful presidential bid.

I feel that actually pretty clearly shows my point. Sure some people are still against it, but give it another decade and it'll probably be ~10% who do. It's not a politically relevant position anymore, nobody is going to try and get rid of gay marriage.

If it's not politically relevant now, does that mean it will never be politically relevant?

[Cisairse]

Pew says 31% of Americans oppose the legality of same-sex marriage, which equates to about 65 million adults. That's more people than voted for Donald Trump in his successful presidential bid.

I feel that actually pretty clearly shows my point. Sure some people are still against it, but give it another decade and it'll probably be ~10% who do. It's not a politically relevant position anymore, nobody is going to try and get rid of gay marriage.

I feel like the fact that 65 million adults want gay marriage to be illegal kinda throws a wrench in your idea that it's not a politically relevant position anymore.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I feel that actually pretty clearly shows my point. Sure some people are still against it, but give it another decade and it'll probably be ~10% who do. It's not a politically relevant position anymore, nobody is going to try and get rid of gay marriage.

If it's not politically relevant now, does that mean it will never be politically relevant?

History in the US would say so. Once a social change happens and is really forced through it tends to stick without much opposition, the one big exception to this has been abortion.

I feel that actually pretty clearly shows my point. Sure some people are still against it, but give it another decade and it'll probably be ~10% who do. It's not a politically relevant position anymore, nobody is going to try and get rid of gay marriage.

I feel like the fact that 65 million adults want gay marriage to be illegal kinda throws a wrench in your idea that it's not a politically relevant position anymore.

Half the US population doesn't even vote. If they're not making it a main party plank and mobilizing for it then it's not politically relevant.

[Kaj Migawageordia]

That would be a good thing, imho. More reasonable people is always a good thing.

Is there any chance of people supporting banning gay marriage if they don't leave the trans folks to the wolves though?

Maybe not gay marriage specifically but there is a fair amount of polling showing people are becoming less and less supportive of the LGBT+ movement. My personal opinion on why is just the awful optics of it in the US and the fears of a never ending slippery slope, which I'm not really sure how the latter bit could be handled.

From what I have seen, a large chunk of anti-LGBT sentiment seems to mostly be targeted against the T part of the community as they try to push ideas like pre-op trans people using opposite sex public bathrooms and locker rooms, biologically male people should be allowed to compete in women's sports, there are dozens of different genders, etc. Most people I know have no issue with the idea of two people of the same-sex getting married, but most people I know do have issues with a lot of stuff that the trans-rights movement has been pushing.

[Ifreann]

If it's not politically relevant now, does that mean it will never be politically relevant?

History in the US would say so. Once a social change happens and is really forced through it tends to stick without much opposition, the one big exception to this has been abortion.

"History in the US" is not exactly a long period of time.