[POLL] Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual vs. Transexual

[Proctopeo]

So instead of the royal "we", it's assuming an entire group is a monolith.
I'm not sure if that's better or worse.

You don't need to see it as a monolithic structure to observe that there is pretty uncontroversial consesus among progressives that transmedicalism is a backwards ideology.

It would be like saying that atheists need to be a monolith to be against creationism.

Just because a consensus is mostly universal doesn't mean that it's right to enforce orthodoxy... especially if your opinion comes off as the more conservative one to many people.

[United Muscovite Nations]

It really isn't.

It's on the asexuality spectrum, so...

There is no "asexuality spectrum." You're attracted to people of one gender, attracted to people of both genders, or you aren't attracted to either.

2 months ago I'd have agreed with you, but personal experience has told me it's possible to be (sexually) attracted to only one specific person or a small group of specific persons.

Also tbh we do have to distinguish between romantic and sexual attraction because they are separate.

[Necroghastia]

Good thing that's not what queer people are doing, then.

It is though.

Unless you have an actual source that says people ID as queer to be "edgy" and not because they feel that it's the best label for them, then I think it's obvious that your argument has not a leg to stand on.

And some people prefer the distinction of IDing as pan. It costs nothing to respect that decision.

So, you have no actual rebuttal, then.

So why even bring it up?

So we can keep it the way it is now as far as discluding NB people.

What's the problem with NB people? Oh, wait, there isn't one. The problem is with closed-minded people who can't fathom the existence of people unlike themselves without getting uppity about it.

Ah, another thing that costs nothing to respect.

Being free really doesn't make legitimizing attention-seeking labels any more appealing.

We weren't talking about attention-seeking labels though... I'm not sure why you insist on changing the subject like that, unless you realize that you can't actually come up with a legitimate rationale for your position.

So why bring it up?

It's quick, it's easy, and it's free.

Not that quick. That's even more time you had to spend on your keyboard tilting at windmills.

[Necroghastia]

It really isn't.

It's on the asexuality spectrum, so...

There is no "asexuality spectrum." You're attracted to people of one gender, attracted to people of both genders, or you aren't attracted to either.

Yes, there is. There's also more than two genders, so get that "both" and "either" crap outta here.
What would you call someone who normally experiences no attraction whatsoever, but does after forming a very close bond with a specific person?

[Ifreann]

If the "trans" in "transgender" refers to transition, what does the "cis" in "cisgender" refer to?

Cisgender has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning "on this side of"
You can use the term "non-trans" or "Binary" if you prefer.

I think a better term to describe both Transgenders and NBs would be Birth Gender Variant people. It's a bit of a mouthful, but it describes both groups fairly in my eyes.

The antonym of cis- is trans-. Coincidence? Or does being transgender not have anything to do with transitioning?

[Riria]

Just because a consensus is mostly universal doesn't mean that it's right to enforce orthodoxy...

Did it seem like I was cancelling Albrenia? No, I was making an attempt to educate. You could argue that my language was not the friendliest, and we could see eye to eye on that, but don't misconstrue my intent please.

especially if your opinion comes off as the more conservative one to many people.

By what twisted definition of "conservative" are you able to categorize the position that a person is gender X and should be treated as gender X if they simply identify as gender X as more conservative than the position that gender has an inherently biological origin in brain structures, and that there is such a thing as a female or a male brain? Hell, the former is objectively more inclusive, if nothing else.

[Proctopeo]

Just because a consensus is mostly universal doesn't mean that it's right to enforce orthodoxy...

Did it seem like I was cancelling Albrenia? No, I was making an attempt to educate. You could argue that my language was not the friendliest, and we could see eye to eye on that, but don't misconstrue my intent please.

especially if your opinion comes off as the more conservative one to many people.

By what twisted definition of "conservative" are you able to categorize the position that a person is gender X and should be treated as gender X if they simply identify as gender X as more conservative than the position that gender has an inherently biological origin in brain structures, and that there is such a thing as a female or a male brain? Hell, the former is objectively more inclusive, if nothing else.

"Being gay/trans/etc is a choice" is a traditionally conservative position, and anti-transmedicalism tends to imply that, even if unintentionally.

[Crockerland]

There is no "asexuality spectrum." You're attracted to people of one gender, attracted to people of both genders, or you aren't attracted to either.

Yes, there is. There's also more than two genders, so get that "both" and "either" crap outta here.

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/gender

GEN'DER, noun [Latin genus, from geno, gigno; Gr.to beget, or to be born; Eng. kind. Gr. a woman, a wife; Sans. gena, a wife, and genaga, a father. We have begin from the same root. See Begin and Can.]

1. Properly, kind; sort.

2. A sex, male or female.

What would you call someone who normally experiences no attraction whatsoever, but does after forming a very close bond with a specific person?

Someone who normally experiences no attraction whatsoever, but does after forming a very close bond with a specific person? Hmmm... I guess I would call them "someone who normally experiences no attraction whatsoever, but does after forming a very close bond with a specific person" and not pretend it's somehow equivalent to a sexual orientation.

[Cisairse]

Yes, there is. There's also more than two genders, so get that "both" and "either" crap outta here.

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/gender

GEN'DER, noun [Latin genus, from geno, gigno; Gr.to beget, or to be born; Eng. kind. Gr. a woman, a wife; Sans. gena, a wife, and genaga, a father. We have begin from the same root. See Begin and Can.]

1. Properly, kind; sort.

2. A sex, male or female.

What would you call someone who normally experiences no attraction whatsoever, but does after forming a very close bond with a specific person?

Someone who normally experiences no attraction whatsoever, but does after forming a very close bond with a specific person? Hmmm... I guess I would call them "someone who normally experiences no attraction whatsoever, but does after forming a very close bond with a specific person" and not pretend it's somehow equivalent to a sexual orientation.

You just cited a dictionary from 1828 m8

[Riria]

"Being gay/trans/etc is a choice" is a traditionally conservative position, and anti-transmedicalism tends to imply that, even if unintentionally.

There's a huge leap in logic in saying that "I identify as X" implies "I have a choice in whether I can identify as X".

[Proctopeo]

"Being gay/trans/etc is a choice" is a traditionally conservative position, and anti-transmedicalism tends to imply that, even if unintentionally.

There's a huge leap in logic in saying that "I identify as X" implies "I have a choice in whether I can identify as X".

There's obviously a bit more to my logic than I briefly stated, however I don't see it as very worthwhile to elaborate upon.

[Necroghastia]

Yes, there is. There's also more than two genders, so get that "both" and "either" crap outta here.

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/gender

GEN'DER, noun [Latin genus, from geno, gigno; Gr.to beget, or to be born; Eng. kind. Gr. a woman, a wife; Sans. gena, a wife, and genaga, a father. We have begin from the same root. See Begin and Can.]

1. Properly, kind; sort.

2. A sex, male or female.

Personally I don't think we should be using prescriptivism based on a 200 year old dictionary tinged with Biblical influence. Sounds rather reductive.

What would you call someone who normally experiences no attraction whatsoever, but does after forming a very close bond with a specific person?

Someone who normally experiences no attraction whatsoever, but does after forming a very close bond with a specific person? Hmmm... I guess I would call them "someone who normally experiences no attraction whatsoever, but does after forming a very close bond with a specific person" and not pretend it's somehow equivalent to a sexual orientation.

That's a lot of words when you could just say demisexual and have people understand what you mean just as well.

[Riria]

There's a huge leap in logic in saying that "I identify as X" implies "I have a choice in whether I can identify as X".

There's obviously a bit more to my logic than I briefly stated, however I don't see it as very worthwhile to elaborate upon.

I mean I wouldn't want to strawman you, but you surely see how the contents of your elaboration are not readily apparent. Which is not necessarily a bad thing in conversation (many things can be black boxed without disrupting flow) but in this case it literally makes your conclusion ambiguous.

[Basel-Triesen]

Yes, there is. There's also more than two genders, so get that "both" and "either" crap outta here.

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/gender

GEN'DER, noun [Latin genus, from geno, gigno; Gr.to beget, or to be born; Eng. kind. Gr. a woman, a wife; Sans. gena, a wife, and genaga, a father. We have begin from the same root. See Begin and Can.]

1. Properly, kind; sort.

2. A sex, male or female.

What would you call someone who normally experiences no attraction whatsoever, but does after forming a very close bond with a specific person?

Someone who normally experiences no attraction whatsoever, but does after forming a very close bond with a specific person? Hmmm... I guess I would call them "someone who normally experiences no attraction whatsoever, but does after forming a very close bond with a specific person" and not pretend it's somehow equivalent to a sexual orientation.

Dictionary
Gender
[ jen-der ]
SEE SYNONYMS FOR gender ON THESAURUS.COM
noun
1. either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behavior: the feminine gender. Compare sex(def 1).

2. a similar category of human beings that is outside the male/female binary classification and is based on the individual's personal awareness or identity. See also third gender.

[Alternamerica]

Everyone is valid in the community except cishets calling themselves Queer/Ace/etc

[Cisairse]

Everyone is valid in the community except cishets calling themselves Queer/Ace/etc

Why don't you respect ace people?

[Carvio Saikesenassia]

That's... not quite what it is, no. It's a subreddit for posting all the weird shit in the trans community and how it seems to be more of an extreme fetish than a real thing.

You say that as if that isn't somehow less credible.

"i dont like sources that show what i dont wanna see!"

[Cisairse]

You say that as if that isn't somehow less credible.

"i dont like sources that show what i dont wanna see!"

Reddit is considered a "source" now?

[Kannap]

You say that as if that isn't somehow less credible.

"i dont like sources that show what i dont wanna see!"

Nice reaching there, I'm worried you might've pulled a muscle.

[Vassenor]

Everyone is valid in the community except cishets calling themselves Queer/Ace/etc

Why don't you respect ace people?

Pretty sure the "het" part of "cishet" precludes someone from being asexual.

[Cisairse]

Why don't you respect ace people?

Pretty sure the "het" part of "cishet" precludes someone from being asexual.

I'm pretty sure nobody identifies as a cishet asexual. The post I responded to seemed incredibly ignorant, which is why I engaged.

[Necroghastia]

Why don't you respect ace people?

Pretty sure the "het" part of "cishet" precludes someone from being asexual.

You'd think that, but there's a lot of exclusionists that don't think aces exist and are just attention-seeking cishets.
Never mind how one could ID as ace and be trans, or be romantically attracted to the same/more than one gender.

[South Ccanda]

Yeah, I feel like sexuality and wanting to be/believing you are another gender should be separated, and not grouped together as one community.

Why?

Why? Because they are far from being the same thing. You are comparing preferences to making life-altering changes to your body. They are just two different movements entirely.

P.s. Nice flag, Vass

[Necroghastia]

Why?

Why? Because they are far from being the same thing. You are comparing preferences to making life-altering changes to your body. They are just two different movements entirely.

Pretty sure we're talking about historically linked groups with heavy overlap that challenge traditional societal expectations of gender roles but go off I guess.

[South Ccanda]

Yeah, I feel like sexuality and wanting to be/believing you are another gender should be separated, and not grouped together as one community.

Whilst Sexuality and Gender Identity are different things of course, the struggles of the LGB and Trans communities are intimately linked and always have been. That's why they are "grouped together as one community", because that's what LGB and Trans people did themselves for decades; they helped each other out and were there to support each other.

This is a fair point, and I'm glad that they want to help each other out, but I still see the actual rights that they are fighting for are entirely different, thus making very different movements.