[POLL] Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual vs. Transexual

[Kannap]

That doesnt sounds as bad as some people made it.

I am generally deeply sceptical about surgeries in this context. But thats me.

I’ve never really been a big fan of most surgeries or medications in relation to mental health. I think Electro-shock therapy is cruel and we shouldn’t be drugging up everyone who might have a mental health issue. Therapy needs to be expanded more than we currently are

Except gender reassignment surgery typically leads to better quality of life for the majority of trans people. Do you not want people to be happier, healthier, and less likely to commit suicide?

[Cekoviu]

I’ve never really been a big fan of most surgeries or medications in relation to mental health. I think Electro-shock therapy is cruel and we shouldn’t be drugging up everyone who might have a mental health issue. Therapy needs to be expanded more than we currently are

Except gender reassignment surgery typically leads to better quality of life for the majority of trans people. Do you not want people to be happier, healthier, and less likely to commit suicide?

And if you cite the bullshit about increased suicide rates after SRS i'm legitimately going to scream

[Thermodolia]

I’ve never really been a big fan of most surgeries or medications in relation to mental health. I think Electro-shock therapy is cruel and we shouldn’t be drugging up everyone who might have a mental health issue. Therapy needs to be expanded more than we currently are

Except gender reassignment surgery typically leads to better quality of life for the majority of trans people. Do you not want people to be happier, healthier, and less likely to commit suicide?

There’s a lot of evidence to the contrary. The rate of suicide is unchanged after going through surgery. Mainly because in the majority of cases what you get doesn’t look anywhere near the real thing which can cause more mental health problems.

Also we don’t chop off the arms of those who sincerely believe they are amputees, instead we help them come to terms with their bodies and help them to understand that yes that arm is theirs and no they do not need to remove it.

Why is it any different with those who have GID/GD? What makes them so special?

[Nakena]

It's literally unabashed conversion therapy and he's not even trying to hide the fact that he's got no justification for it. It's absurd.

Thats not how I understood it. But I see where you are coming from.

ok

It's an unpopular opinion and I do stand by it. I believe SRS should be applied much more cautiously.

Except gender reassignment surgery typically leads to better quality of life for the majority of trans people.

Uh oh. I mean in case where it does its one thing, but it should be very cautiously applied. In question of doubt, rather no.

Do you not want people to be happier, healthier, and less likely to commit suicide?

Sure thing.

[Bromagia]

Yeah, I don't know that tacky and stereotypical bullshit like what you get in Pride did as much as you think it did. I think it hurt. A lot.

I'm a bit rusty on my history in that particular sphere, but I do rather recall, much like the early movements trying to get women the vote, the jackbooted response of the Powers That Be to things like Pride parades was one of the things which started to turn popular opinion around on homosexuality.

I've not seen an in depth study showing that conclusion.

Anectdote: I have known people who took a long time to ease up on LGB specifically because of the perceived debauchery inspired by the very public, very trashy actions of some gays.

[Cekoviu]

Except gender reassignment surgery typically leads to better quality of life for the majority of trans people. Do you not want people to be happier, healthier, and less likely to commit suicide?

There’s a lot of evidence to the contrary. The rate of suicide is unchanged after going through surgery. Mainly because in the majority of cases what you get doesn’t look anywhere near the real thing which can cause more mental health problems.

Also we don’t chop off the arms of those who sincerely believe they are amputees, instead we help them come to terms with their bodies and help them to understand that yes that arm is theirs and no they do not need to remove it.

Why is it any different with those who have GID/GD? What makes them so special?

brb, screaming

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

That doesnt sounds as bad as some people made it.

I am generally deeply sceptical about surgeries in this context. But thats me.

I’ve never really been a big fan of most surgeries or medications in relation to mental health. I think Electro-shock therapy is cruel and we shouldn’t be drugging up everyone who might have a mental health issue. Therapy needs to be expanded more than we currently are

We also shouldn’t be putting people into “therapy” for being something you don’t like, especially when that something isn’t particularity harmful to anyone else. That’d be like a man arguing for women to be put into “therapy” for being women all because he doesn’t like women and vice versa if it were a woman with a similar attitude towards men.

[Albrenia]

Except gender reassignment surgery typically leads to better quality of life for the majority of trans people. Do you not want people to be happier, healthier, and less likely to commit suicide?

There’s a lot of evidence to the contrary. The rate of suicide is unchanged after going through surgery. Mainly because in the majority of cases what you get doesn’t look anywhere near the real thing which can cause more mental health problems.

Also we don’t chop off the arms of those who sincerely believe they are amputees, instead we help them come to terms with their bodies and help them to understand that yes that arm is theirs and no they do not need to remove it.

Why is it any different with those who have GID/GD? What makes them so special?

I did hear about studies that many trans people have brains which function like that of someone of the gender they feel they are, rather than the one their body resembles. So there's that.

Would seem to imply that it's not a problem of a delusion at all, but of them literally being born with a body their brain isn't... what's the word... 'supposed' to inhabit? Would seem perfectly reasonable to help modify their body to the appropriate state in that circumstance.

[Cekoviu]

Honestly, the actions and attitudes of people like Thermodolia have almost convinced me that straight and bi trans people should just jettison the LG community altogether. Not because we have different goals like the OP says, but because those communities are incredibly toxic and clearly have a significant proportion of people who hate us.

[Bromagia]

That doesnt sounds as bad as some people made it.

It's literally unabashed conversion therapy and he's not even trying to hide the fact that he's got no justification for it. It's absurd.

I am generally deeply sceptical about surgeries in this context. But thats me.

ok

That's a very stark image you present. I think you are missing a lot of nuance in the anti-trans and trans-skeptical camps.

Did I say every transphobe is Voldemort? No. But the stuff you come across on the fringes of the TERFsphere can be genuinely chilling and often wouldn't be out of place on Stormfront with a few vocabulary changes.

Slippery slope

WRA's already demonstrated that slippery slopes are not necessarily unwarranted in this context, but nice fallacy fallacy.

I very much got the impression from your post that they are indeed Voldemort. You sound like you spend too much time online. Not everyone, or even most, people of a given position is posting online about it. You're going to get a shit impression of most ideas if you interact with their adherents strictly digitally.

[Cekoviu]

There’s a lot of evidence to the contrary. The rate of suicide is unchanged after going through surgery. Mainly because in the majority of cases what you get doesn’t look anywhere near the real thing which can cause more mental health problems.

Also we don’t chop off the arms of those who sincerely believe they are amputees, instead we help them come to terms with their bodies and help them to understand that yes that arm is theirs and no they do not need to remove it.

Why is it any different with those who have GID/GD? What makes them so special?

I did hear about studies that many trans people have brains which function like that of someone of the gender they feel they are, rather than the one their body resembles. So there's that.

In certain respects, yes, but it's a pretty nuanced and confusing thing and there are a variety of different aspects going into it. We don't actually know what part of the brain causes gender, so it's hard to really say where it is, but there are certain parts of the brain in trans people that resemble the assigned sex at birth and certain parts that resemble their psychological gender (even before hormone therapy). It's very likely that some of those parts resembling their psychological gender encode for gender, and I'd hazard a guess that that can't be altered through conversion therapy and would require very complicated and ethically problematic brain surgery.

[Thermodolia]

I’ve never really been a big fan of most surgeries or medications in relation to mental health. I think Electro-shock therapy is cruel and we shouldn’t be drugging up everyone who might have a mental health issue. Therapy needs to be expanded more than we currently are

We also shouldn’t be putting people into “therapy” for being something you don’t like, especially when that something isn’t particularity harmful to anyone else. That’d be like a man arguing for women to be put into “therapy” for being women all because he doesn’t like women and vice versa if it were a woman with a similar attitude towards men.

That’s not what I’m arguing for though. And I legitimately mean therapy not some stupid 1950s style shove you in a room with a straightjack on and calling therapy.

[Cekoviu]

It's literally unabashed conversion therapy and he's not even trying to hide the fact that he's got no justification for it. It's absurd.

ok

Did I say every transphobe is Voldemort? No. But the stuff you come across on the fringes of the TERFsphere can be genuinely chilling and often wouldn't be out of place on Stormfront with a few vocabulary changes.

WRA's already demonstrated that slippery slopes are not necessarily unwarranted in this context, but nice fallacy fallacy.

I very much got the impression from your post that they are indeed Voldemort. You sound like you spend too much time online. Not everyone, or even most, people of a given position is posting online about it. You're going to get a shit impression of most ideas if you interact with their adherents strictly digitally.

Can you please read more carefully and look for nuance?

[Nakena]

I've had interactions and lived amongst "LGBT" before that word even existed and before things... became political and toxic as they are now. Which I believe is a very concerning trend as it harms many people.

Would I base my opinion and views of LGBT on online interactions, it would be an negative one.

Thankfully, I made throughout my life other experiences with it. First hand, and in reallife.

[Thermodolia]

Honestly, the actions and attitudes of people like Thermodolia have almost convinced me that straight and bi trans people should just jettison the LG community altogether. Not because we have different goals like the OP says, but because those communities are incredibly toxic and clearly have a significant proportion of people who hate us.

Ah the casual homophobia shows its head. Thanks for coming clean.

[Cekoviu]

We also shouldn’t be putting people into “therapy” for being something you don’t like, especially when that something isn’t particularity harmful to anyone else. That’d be like a man arguing for women to be put into “therapy” for being women all because he doesn’t like women and vice versa if it were a woman with a similar attitude towards men.

That’s not what I’m arguing for though. And I legitimately mean therapy not some stupid 1950s style shove you in a room with a straightjack on and calling therapy.

Given your apparent inability to understand the effects and use of therapy, I'm not sure you could really describe what you mean by "legitimate therapy." Care to elaborate? :^)

[Cekoviu]

Honestly, the actions and attitudes of people like Thermodolia have almost convinced me that straight and bi trans people should just jettison the LG community altogether. Not because we have different goals like the OP says, but because those communities are incredibly toxic and clearly have a significant proportion of people who hate us.

Ah the casual homophobia shows its head. Thanks for coming clean.

You're clearly never going to change your ass-backwards views; why take the high ground to try to convince you to?

[Bromagia]

I very much got the impression from your post that they are indeed Voldemort. You sound like you spend too much time online. Not everyone, or even most, people of a given position is posting online about it. You're going to get a shit impression of most ideas if you interact with their adherents strictly digitally.

Can you please read more carefully and look for nuance?

I'm having a hard time seeing it in your posts. Some of them are kinda histrionic, honestly.

[Kannap]

Honestly, the actions and attitudes of people like Thermodolia have almost convinced me that straight and bi trans people should just jettison the LG community altogether. Not because we have different goals like the OP says, but because those communities are incredibly toxic and clearly have a significant proportion of people who hate us.

Honestly, all this talk about whether to separate the LGB and T when we could be having a wonderful conversation instead about the entire LGBT community coming together to shut out anti-trans LGB folks

[Bromagia]

Honestly, the actions and attitudes of people like Thermodolia have almost convinced me that straight and bi trans people should just jettison the LG community altogether. Not because we have different goals like the OP says, but because those communities are incredibly toxic and clearly have a significant proportion of people who hate us.

That actually sounds a little bigoted.

[Cekoviu]

Can you please read more carefully and look for nuance?

I'm having a hard time seeing it in your posts. Some of them are kinda histrionic, honestly.

Kinda ironic.

[Albrenia]

I've had interactions and lived amongst "LGBT" before that word even existed and before things... became political and toxic as they are now. Which I believe is a very concerning trend as it harms many people.

Would I base my opinion and views of LGBT on online interactions, it would be an negative one.

Thankfully, I made throughout my life other experiences with it. First hand, and in reallife.

I know it's a slight side-track, but that's fairly true of most things online. Everything online seems at least three times as toxic as it is in real life.

[Bromagia]

Honestly, the actions and attitudes of people like Thermodolia have almost convinced me that straight and bi trans people should just jettison the LG community altogether. Not because we have different goals like the OP says, but because those communities are incredibly toxic and clearly have a significant proportion of people who hate us.

Honestly, all this talk about whether to separate the LGB and T when we could be having a wonderful conversation instead about the entire LGBT community coming together to shut out anti-trans LGB folks

But that's the topic. We're supposed to be discussing whether T belongs with LGB on a movement level.

[Cekoviu]

Honestly, the actions and attitudes of people like Thermodolia have almost convinced me that straight and bi trans people should just jettison the LG community altogether. Not because we have different goals like the OP says, but because those communities are incredibly toxic and clearly have a significant proportion of people who hate us.

That actually sounds a little bigoted.

Yeah, and I try to avoid that impulse, but it's getting really fucking hard to lately. For the last few months, it's felt like every trans-supportive cis gay person I see is buffered by two transphobic cis gay people.

[Kannap]

Honestly, the actions and attitudes of people like Thermodolia have almost convinced me that straight and bi trans people should just jettison the LG community altogether. Not because we have different goals like the OP says, but because those communities are incredibly toxic and clearly have a significant proportion of people who hate us.

Ah the casual homophobia shows its head. Thanks for coming clean.

lol says the literal transphobe. I fully agree with Cekoviu here, many people in the community, including some in this thread, have shown hostility towards transgender folks. Can't fault them for not wanting to be part of a toxic relationship.