[POLL] Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual vs. Transexual

[Necroghastia]

I'm a mixed race gay person and I'm with Ifreann on this.

At last a worthy opponent. Your oppression battles will be legendary.

What's so funny? Other than perhaps the excessive plus signs.

It would be the excessive plus signs.

And also the fact that I have no damn clue what in the hell that's supposed to stand for. I know what LGBTQ stands for but not those other letters of alphabet soup.

I and A are for intersex and asexual.

[Ankenland]

The big brain question here, though:

Aren't the transsexuals being exclusive (bigoted, hateful, evangelical neocons) towards people with amputee fetishism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrotomophilia

It's pretty rare, but these people legitimately exist in two forms - the ones who are attracted to amputees, and the ones who are aroused by becoming amputees. Some of the more extreme ones actually have perfectly healthy, usable hands, arms, feet or legs surgically removed, in order to, uhh... have their body conform with their identity.

Aren't the people who want to be castrated shutting out the people who want to be maimed in other ways?

[Necroghastia]

The big brain question here, though:

Aren't the transsexuals being exclusive (bigoted, hateful, evangelical neocons) towards people with amputee fetishism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrotomophilia

It's pretty rare, but these people legitimately exist in two forms - the ones who are attracted to amputees, and the ones who are aroused by becoming amputees. Some of the more extreme ones actually have perfectly healthy, usable hands, arms, feet or legs surgically removed, in order to, uhh... have their body conform with their identity.

Aren't the people who want to be castrated shutting out the people who want to be maimed in other ways?

Your first mistake is in assuming trans people are transitioning because it's arousing and equating paraphilias with gender identity. Your second mistake is in assuming all trans people want to be castrated.

[Stanmenistan]

QUESTION: Should the Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual (LGB) movement, and all its problems, activisms and issues, be treated/dealt with separately from the Transexual (and other) movement(s)?

This question is obviously for those who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transexual or whatever other letter we have in the acronym. However, those who do not identify as such are welcomed to input so long as it remains constructive and respectful (although, this should go without saying, everyone should remain constructive and respectful).

Firstly, I feel I need to nail my colours to the mast - I am a gay man. I am grateful to have left a country that criminalises homosexuality to a country that is generally accepting of it. I also have never taken part in activism or protests of any kind in relation to the LGBTQIA+++ movement. I've never attended pride marches and never really paid any special attention to the LGBTQIA+++ movement, though I recognise I enjoy the fruits of its labour by being able to live in an accepting country.

Nevertheless, I sometimes feel uneasy about lumping LGB people and TQIA+++ people together because ultimately, they deal with different matters. In the former case, they deal with people who are sexually attracted to someone of the same gender, or of both genders, whereas the latter case deals with people with gender dysphoria who do not feel comfortable in their biological sex. Additionally, the modern LGBTQIA+++ movement is filled with people advancing claims about gender spectrums, or hundreds of different genders other than male and female gender, etc. that the entire movement has really become rather confusing and has since moved away from a debate and discussion about people who just want to love each other, to questioning some very fundamental beliefs about the male and female "gender binary". As such, I personally feel that the LGB movement and the TQIA+++ movement(s) should be separated.

I personally do not agree with assertions about the existence gender spectrums and multiple genders. However, I believe that if these people wish to have a movement, they should be allowed to and, in a free western country like the one that I currently live in, they should be entitled to. I just do not think their movement should be conflated with that of Lesbian, Gays, and Bisexuals, who (based on my own personal experience) want nothing more than to be accepted for being attracted to the same-sex, and want nothing to do with this whole confusion regarding tearing down the male female gender binary and replacing it with gender spectrums and multiple gender identities.

Hmm, interesting. While as a Cishet male I'm probably not the best one to judge, AFAIK Trans*/Non-Binary people and LGB people have traditionally worked together due to a shared history of victimisation and discrimination.

I know gender identity is different thing to sexual orientation, but that doesn't mean trans people and LGB people should stop helping each other. By splitting the communities apart, you are letting the TERFs and other transphobes win. The LGBT+ community is stronger together than it is apart.

[Reploid Productions]

The big brain question here, though:

Aren't the transsexuals being exclusive (bigoted, hateful, evangelical neocons) towards people with amputee fetishism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrotomophilia

It's pretty rare, but these people legitimately exist in two forms - the ones who are attracted to amputees, and the ones who are aroused by becoming amputees. Some of the more extreme ones actually have perfectly healthy, usable hands, arms, feet or legs surgically removed, in order to, uhh... have their body conform with their identity.

Aren't the people who want to be castrated shutting out the people who want to be maimed in other ways?

Apparently the last trolling warning didn't get it through to you that this site has rules you agreed to adhere to as a condition of creating your nation.

*** Ankenland, 1-day ban for trolling. ***


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[Cekoviu]

I understand the argument that sexuality and gender at first glance appear to be different matters and don't need to be part of the same movement; there are several strong counterarguments to this, however.

First of all, on a social level, both homosexuality (and related) and transsexuality counter traditional societal expectations for how different sexes should act internally and to each other. In the case of homosexuality/bisexuality, it counters the heteronormative idea that vagina owners are attracted exclusively to penis owners and vice versa. In the case of transsexuality, it counters the cisnormative idea that vagina owners are exclusively women and penis owners are exclusively men. And in the case of intersexuality, it counters the idea that you can only have a vagina or a penis. Because these all share these common features of deconstructing societal sexpectations, they are more alike than they first appear.

Second of all, there's a very large degree of common history between trans people and LGB people. Sometimes people like to pretend as though the T was tacked on recently, as it's only recently become the culture war's issue of the hour. But in reality, early LGBT rights advocates in America were often trans. The first person to throw a rock at Stonewall was trans, for example.

Finally, there's a significant amount of overlap between TI and LGBA, such that the Venn diagram looks rather like this:

You'd still end up with a lot of trans people in the LGBA camp, so you don't get rid of them just by separating the movements.

Trying to dissociate LGB from T at this point is like pulling apart two pages of a book that have been glued together: you leave annoying residue, likely ruining both pages, and you ultimately end up worse off than if you'd just left them together.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

While sexuality and gender identity are separate, they are are intertwined and shouldn't be separated.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I certainly understand why a seemingly ever growing amount of LGB people want to disassociate from the T and others such letters of the acronym. Republicans told us gay marriage was going to be a slippery slope and advocates for it at the time said that was insanity but it's been proven true. Given the declining support for LGBT+ peoples and groups it makes a certain amount of sense that the people who've already won their rights want to jump ship to try and preserve them.

As for whether that should happen or not I can't really say. It doesn't impact me in any way and I have no firm opinions on it really.

[Thermodolia]

I certainly understand why a seemingly ever growing amount of LGB people want to disassociate from the T and others such letters of the acronym. Republicans told us gay marriage was going to be a slippery slope and advocates for it at the time said that was insanity but it's been proven true. Given the declining support for LGBT+ peoples and groups it makes a certain amount of sense that the people who've already won their rights want to jump ship to try and preserve them.

As for whether that should happen or not I can't really say. It doesn't impact me in any way and I have no firm opinions on it really.

While support overall for LGBT+ rights is declining support for just LGB issues remains the same. Which really leads you to think why the hell you should allow the T+ to drag your group down.

[Thermodolia]

Honestly this just seems like another classic case of a white person telling a mixed race gay person how they're supposed to feel.

I'm a mixed race gay person and I'm with Ifreann on this.

You’re not gay.

[Albrenia]

I'm a mixed race gay person and I'm with Ifreann on this.

You’re not gay.

Uhm... how could you possibly know that?

[Thermodolia]

You’re not gay.

Uhm... how could you possibly know that?

They are a trans “woman” they aren’t gay at all because they aren’t a woman.

[Necroghastia]

I certainly understand why a seemingly ever growing amount of LGB people want to disassociate from the T and others such letters of the acronym. Republicans told us gay marriage was going to be a slippery slope and advocates for it at the time said that was insanity but it's been proven true. Given the declining support for LGBT+ peoples and groups it makes a certain amount of sense that the people who've already won their rights want to jump ship to try and preserve them.

As for whether that should happen or not I can't really say. It doesn't impact me in any way and I have no firm opinions on it really.

While support overall for LGBT+ rights is declining support for just LGB issues remains the same. Which really leads you to think why the hell you should allow the T+ to drag your group down.

You keep saying this, but what do you have to back it up?

Uhm... how could you possibly know that?

They are a trans “woman” they aren’t gay at all because they aren’t a woman.

I use she/her pronouns, thank you in advance.

[Washington Resistance Army]

While support overall for LGBT+ rights is declining support for just LGB issues remains the same. Which really leads you to think why the hell you should allow the T+ to drag your group down.

You keep saying this, but what do you have to back it up?

GLAAD released a really good poll on the topic last year comparing numbers from 2016 to 2018. The % of young people who view themselves as allies to the LGBT+ movement has fallen from 63% to 45%, and amongst young men in particular the number has plummeted from 62% to 35%.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I feel like uncoupling them will actually significantly help the advancement of trans rights, so yes.

[Necroghastia]

You keep saying this, but what do you have to back it up?

GLAAD released a really good poll on the topic last year comparing numbers from 2016 to 2018. The % of young people who view themselves as allies to the LGBT+ movement has fallen from 63% to 45%, and amongst young men in particular the number has plummeted from 62% to 35%.

Does that make the same distinction Therm is making, though?

[Nakena]

I personally believe that the general approach towards LGBT in the western mainstream is somewhat (altough not entirely) misguided, and that this is rooted in it's philosophical and cultural foundations.

[Albrenia]

Uhm... how could you possibly know that?

They are a trans “woman” they aren’t gay at all because they aren’t a woman.

I consider trans people to be the gender of their choice, so that's rather a non-argument to me.

[Cekoviu]

I feel like uncoupling them will actually significantly help the advancement of trans rights, so yes.

How so?

[Cekoviu]

They are a trans “woman” they aren’t gay at all because they aren’t a woman.

I consider trans people to be the gender of their choice, so that's rather a non-argument to me.

It's not a choice.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I feel like uncoupling them will actually significantly help the advancement of trans rights, so yes.

How so?

Because a lot of opposition to Trans people is literally just the assumption that trans = super gay.

[Albrenia]

I consider trans people to be the gender of their choice, so that's rather a non-argument to me.

It's not a choice.

Y'know what I mean. What they feel to be their true gender.

[Nakena]

It's not a choice.

Y'know what I mean. What they feel to be their true gender.

Sometimes it's complicated though.

[Cekoviu]

How so?

Because a lot of opposition to Trans people is literally just the assumption that trans = super gay.

Ah. That's definitely how it used to be, but I don't think that's really the view now among mainstream and younger transphobes (seeing as the trend is saying trans women are trying to sexually objectify/abuse cis women). Many of them actually support gay rights, but just hate trans people.

At least in the first world, especially the Anglosphere. That's definitely still a common view in the third world, I should note - it's usually the motive in "trans panic" killings in Brazil, etc.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

How so?

Because a lot of opposition to Trans people is literally just the assumption that trans = super gay.

A lot of it also probably has to do with irrational disgust and perceived “ickyness” of trans people, kinda like how a bit of opposition to gay people back in the day the day was, I.e. “ew, they have butt secks and kiss each other, gross, can’t have any of that” but more vitriolic.