Pagan Discussion Thread III

[Washington Resistance Army]

It's just a story like any other really.

First question – are you a believer in Hellenistic pantheon?

Second question – calling a principal myth about major deity “a story like any other”… really?

Yes on both counts.

For Plutarch both Theseus and Romulus (plus all the gods that featured prominently in their lives) were real. For him Centaurs and Amazon invasion of Athens were real, as well as the siege of Troy. He constantly quotes other Greeks who thought likewise. Greeks living before him also did not doubt that their myths and legends were 100% true. The exceptions were rare and ended up badly.

Are you saying then, that modern so-called “Hellenists” (or any other pagans for that matter) don’t believe in their own religion?

You're approaching this from a decidedly evangelical Christian viewpoint. Certainly some people accepted mythological tales as literal, but there's a rather great deal of surviving literature that shows a large number of people viewed them as allegory. Classical Myth shows a number of these if I'm not mistaken, such as the physical Olympus and divine Olympus being understood by many to be linked but separate places. Likewise pagan religions, or at least recon ones, aren't predicated on orthodoxy and correct belief like Christianity, the exact beliefs vary from person to person and is largely a private matter. Orthopraxy and doing things like prayer, offerings or festivals correctly are a much bigger and more important point.

I'd also question the claim that exceptions to literal belief in stories were "rare and ended up badly", the go to example people tend to use is Socrates but despite blasphemy being the official reason he was put to death an examination of it paints a pretty clear picture that it was politically motivated. Beyond that even outright atheism wasn't too widely looked down upon, sans in Athens where it seemingly was a go to punching bag whenever something went wrong and the city leaders needed a scapegoat.

How do you know if anything is true at all? What is the source of your faith?

You answered your question, it's faith. You inherently can't truly know if it is objectively true or not, otherwise everyone would all follow the single true religion and we wouldn't have tens of thousands of them.

Also – can you claim to represent (neo?)pagans at large?

Heavens no. Nobody can. "Pagan" is such a broad title it can be used to refer to anyone from people who try to revive and practice ancient religions as accurately as possible to Wiccans to new age belief systems to pantheists etc etc.

So, I repeat my question to those whom I asked: "Do you believe that god Apollo slew the dragon?"

As a literal event? No, but as an allegory for light overcoming dark and intelligence besting simpler creatures it's a quite nice tale.

[Hanafuridake]

I'd also question the claim that exceptions to literal belief in stories were "rare and ended up badly", the go to example people tend to use is Socrates but despite blasphemy being the official reason he was put to death an examination of it paints a pretty clear picture that it was politically motivated. Beyond that even outright atheism wasn't too widely looked down upon, sans in Athens where it seemingly was a go to punching bag whenever something went wrong and the city leaders needed a scapegoat.

Atheism was considered "denying the gods of the state" though and was punished because it was considered treasonous.

[Nakena]

Most people probably are like, "oh nice that does sound groovy lets try this out" and they start reading some books and try out hard to be that stuff.

For me it was the other way around. I didn looked for it at all. It wasnt on my radar. Occult stuff? Yeah it can be surely interesting but most it is just amusing nonsense.

Now then when I was researching some unrelated stuff I came across some sauces and thought "okay lets see what this stuff is about". I expected something funny or weird.

But when I began to studying them it was basically like "wow, this is totally me!" and many of the teachings and ways I've had myself experienced throughout my life and followed for many years without knowing that there was actually a name or system for it. Almost as if by the book. It was like "I know this all somehow, thats what I have always been".

Wow, I‘m glad you found your spiritual calling. A lot of people feel a bit disoriented when they read the words “occult” and “witchcraft” (happened to me before when I looked up the Wikipedia definition of Wicca). But with research, one’ll better understand what each of those words mean. No research is ever quite complete. There’s always a chance to learn more!

The funny thing is I followed the calling way before without knowning what it actually was. Just had no name for it. Couldn pin point it down. Like parts of the puzzle didn semed to fit together at all. Now after I read some things that changed most obviously.

Nonetheless, more research is required at some point.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I'd also question the claim that exceptions to literal belief in stories were "rare and ended up badly", the go to example people tend to use is Socrates but despite blasphemy being the official reason he was put to death an examination of it paints a pretty clear picture that it was politically motivated. Beyond that even outright atheism wasn't too widely looked down upon, sans in Athens where it seemingly was a go to punching bag whenever something went wrong and the city leaders needed a scapegoat.

Atheism was considered "denying the gods of the state" though and was punished because it was considered treasonous.

In Rome certainly, in Greece it was much more varied and several schools of thought and writers that questioned or even denied the powers or even existence of the divine existed without a huge amount of issue.

[The Wiccan Israel]

Wow, I‘m glad you found your spiritual calling. A lot of people feel a bit disoriented when they read the words “occult” and “witchcraft” (happened to me before when I looked up the Wikipedia definition of Wicca). But with research, one’ll better understand what each of those words mean. No research is ever quite complete. There’s always a chance to learn more!

The funny thing is I followed the calling way before without knowning what it actually was. Just had no name for it. Couldn pin point it down. Like parts of the puzzle didn semed to fit together at all. Now after I read some things that changed most obviously.

Nonetheless, more research is required at some point.

It's a strange thing, really.

Except, I didn't know what my calling was. I went from Buddhism to Hinduism. With the latter, I was caught up in being the ideal devotee of Krishna, but something was missing. I felt fulfilled one way or another until I realized I was subjecting myself to yet another scripture (albeit much more liberal than the Bible). When I began researching contemporary pagan traditions, something clicked. "Wicca? No scripture? In tune with nature? We can choose our own deities?" For me, this was it.

[Rovid-9]

The standard doesn't have to be an official one, it can also be a personal standard. (even if, people ascribing to the same cult and having different standards, talks poorly about that cult consistence)
Without a boundary, any person on earth would be a pagan, and at the same time, no one would be a pagan. Which would make the label "pagan" a meaningless one.

To say, how do you recognize a wicca from a norse?
How do you recognize a wicca from a fan of harry potter?
Or what difference is there between a norse and a fan of the avengers?
What makes someone meditating different from someone resting their eyes?

Or more interestingly, how do you recognize a norse pagan from someone with north european culture and/or local traditions?
Isn't the pagan label just conflated with cultural customs?
Is paganism just cultural customs (local or appropriated from others) with esoterism added into it?

Would the presence of superstition and/or esoterism be the boundary from a pagan and just a person with cultural traditions?
Or are the various cultural traditions, just used as reference to give more credibility to something(paganism) which otherwise would be superstition by itself?
So is paganism just the superstition or esoterism, regardless of the cultural background used as host?


Rewording the previous question then:
How much present pagans are into superstition or esoterism? And how many of them aren't, but just like the folklore?
What is the share? 1to5 esoterists to folklorists?

"How do you recognize a Wicca from a fan of Harry Potter?" Try asking them.

As much of conundrum as it may be, it would be antithetical to single out the pagans from the non-pagans (outside of those who already claim to follow an organized religion or no religion). If a folklorist claims to be pagan, then they are a pagan. Anyone who says otherwise does so vainly.

My response will be an extension of Israel's here, you could simply ask them, haha.

I don't see why there needs to be a distinction between most of what you listed, can a wiccan not enjoy the harry potter series? Does it delegitimize their practices and beliefs? I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

To tackle your meditation question, the difference would be (at the bare minimum, as some who meditate practice religious forms of the activity) intent. This could also be applied to (for example) me, somebody who has an interest in paganism and the practices it encompasses from an educational standpoint, and an actual pagan, who would have an interest in their practices for reasons beyond simply wanting to know about them.

If someone wishes to identify as a pagan, they can. Because it isn't a centralized religion or belief system, it is hard to filter out "fakes", or whatever you'd wish to call them, with actual pagans (using christianity again, those who claim to be catholic, but who don't adhede to the standards one must meet, obviously aren't catholic, and even this becomes harder to say, with the emergence of certian new age schools of thought).

I suggest judging the difference between pagans, non-pagans, and potental "posers", on an individual basis every time. Trying to standardize something that isn't supposed to be centralized can get rather muddy!

[Grimmsland]

It would be Nature and Ancestor based. Isn't that the default? Also is Animism different or just part of it?

[Grimmsland]

also.. "Nature" includes Stars and Planets.. and Comets. The cosmos. Galaxies! Possibly black holes.

[Nakena]

also.. "Nature" includes Stars and Planets.. and Comets. The cosmos. Galaxies! Possibly black holes.

Yes they are part of it and often ignored.

[Aglonia]

I am not a pagan or anything (I'm Christian), but I have to say that I have some good respect for y'all. Y'all are in such a minority situation, but y'all have such strong faiths!

[The Wiccan Israel]

I am not a pagan or anything (I'm Christian), but I have to say that I have some good respect for y'all. Y'all are in such a minority situation, but y'all have such strong faiths!

Thank you (and Happy Easter).

Not that long ago, pagans around the world celebrated the Spring Equinox (also referred to as Ostara, where Easter gets its name). Personally, I believe the event of Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection is symbolic of rebirth and renewal, similar to the cycle of the seasons - the death and return of the sun.

[Sharania]

Interesting. Now, three questions to every faithful pagan in the thread:

1) Is paganism a faith or a religion?

2) Does adhering to the paganism require a pre-modern, irrational worldview?

Back to your answers.

First question – are you a believer in Hellenistic pantheon?

Second question – calling a principal myth about major deity “a story like any other”… really?

Yes on both counts.

That’s very, VERY strange and… unbelievable… for here in this very thread you’ve been claiming:

Pagan-Buddhist solidarity, we will take over NS one day.

You are also a believer in Buddhism now?

Are you saying then, that modern so-called “Hellenists” (or any other pagans for that matter) don’t believe in their own religion?

You're approaching this from a decidedly evangelical Christian viewpoint. Certainly some people accepted mythological tales as literal, but there's a rather great deal of surviving literature that shows a large number of people viewed them as allegory. Classical Myth shows a number of these if I'm not mistaken, such as the physical Olympus and divine Olympus being understood by many to be linked but separate places. Likewise pagan religions, or at least recon ones, aren't predicated on orthodoxy and correct belief like Christianity, the exact beliefs vary from person to person and is largely a private matter. Orthopraxy and doing things like prayer, offerings* or festivals correctly are a much bigger and more important point.

____
* sacrifices

Actually, not only Athenians were very sensitive and protective when dealing with impiety. Plutarch writes (from the life of the Spartan king Agesilaus II):

"Whilst the army was collecting to the rendezvous at Geraestus, Agesilaus went with some of his friends to Aulis, where in a dream he saw a man approach him, and speak to him after this manner: "O king of the Lacedaemonians, you cannot but know that, before yourself, there hath been but one general captain of the whole of the Greeks, namely, Agamemnon; now, since you succeed him in the same office and command of the same men, since you war against the same enemies, and begin your expedition from the same place, you ought also to offer such a sacrifice, as he offered before he weighed anchor." Agesilaus at the same moment remembered that the sacrifice which Agamemnon offered was his own daughter, he being so directed by the oracle. Yet was he not at all disturbed at it, but as soon as he arose, he told his dream to his friends, adding, that he would propitiate the goddess with the sacrifices a goddess must delight in, and would not follow the ignorant example of his predecessor. He therefore ordered a hind to be crowned with chaplets, and bade his own soothsayer perform the rite, not the usual person whom the Boeotians, in ordinary course, appointed to that office. When the Boeotian magistrates understood it, they were much offended, and sent officers to Agesilaus, to forbid his sacrificing contrary to the laws of the country. These having delivered their message to him, immediately went to the altar, and threw down the quarters of the hind that lay upon it. Agesilaus took this very ill, and without further sacrifice immediately sailed away, highly displeased with the Boeotians, and much discouraged in his mind at the omen, boding to himself an unsuccessful voyage, and an imperfect issue of the whole expedition.’

Which invites another question – do you make sacrifices to the deities? Besides sacrificing animals (and, sometimes, humans) pagans also made “sacrifices” in the form of donations to the temples. Do you do that?

I'd also question the claim that exceptions to literal belief in stories were "rare and ended up badly", the go to example people tend to use is Socrates but despite blasphemy being the official reason he was put to death an examination of it paints a pretty clear picture that it was politically motivated. Beyond that even outright atheism wasn't too widely looked down upon, sans in Athens where it seemingly was a go to punching bag whenever something went wrong and the city leaders needed a scapegoat.

No, not Socrates. Please, don’t assume, what I meant. Anaxagoras – death sentence for atheism. Diagoras – lifetime exile for atheism. There are lesser known examples out there showing, that unless you had strong patrons willing to protect you, atheism was not an option in the pagan Hellenistic world. Besides they were anyway philosophers, a very rare and non-representative part of the whole ancient society.

As for Socrates and his trial, I presume you, of course, read at least Plato’s Apology of Socrates, where you’d find the following:

Socrates:
“Then, by the gods, Meletus, of whom we are speaking, tell me and the court, in somewhat plainer terms, what you mean! for I do not as yet understand whether you affirm that I teach others to acknowledge some gods, and therefore do believe in gods and am not an entire atheist - this you do not lay to my charge; but only that they are not the same gods which the city recognizes - the charge is that they are different gods. Or, do you mean to say that I am an atheist simply, and a teacher of atheism?”

Meletus:
“I mean the latter - that you are a complete atheist.”

Socrates:
“That is an extraordinary statement, Meletus. Why do you say that? Do you mean that I do not believe in the godhead of the sun or moon, which is the common creed of all men?

Meletus:
“I assure you, judges, that he does not believe in them; for he says that the sun is stone, and the moon earth.

Socrates:
“Friend Meletus, you think that you are accusing Anaxagoras; and you have but a bad opinion of the judges, if you fancy them ignorant to such a degree as not to know that those doctrines are found in the books of Anaxagoras the Clazomenian, who is full of them. And these are the doctrines which the youth are said to learn of Socrates, when there are not unfrequently exhibitions of them at the theatre (price of admission one drachma at the most); and they might cheaply purchase them, and laugh at Socrates if he pretends to father such eccentricities. And so, Meletus, you really think that I do not believe in any god?”

Meletus:
“I swear by Zeus that you believe absolutely in none at all.”

One more excerpt:

Socrates:
“Did ever man, Meletus, believe in the existence of human things, and not of human beings? ... I wish, men of Athens, that he would answer, and not be always trying to get up an interruption. Did ever any man believe in horsemanship, and not in horses? or in flute-playing, and not in flute-players? No, my friend; I will answer to you and to the court, as you refuse to answer for yourself. There is no man who ever did. But now please to answer the next question: Can a man believe in spiritual and divine agencies, and not in spirits or demigods?

Meletus:
“He cannot.”

Socrates:
“I am glad that I have extracted that answer, by the assistance of the court; nevertheless you swear in the indictment that I teach and believe in divine or spiritual agencies (new or old, no matter for that); at any rate, I believe in spiritual agencies, as you say and swear in the affidavit; but if I believe in divine beings, I must believe in spirits or demigods; - is not that true? Yes, that is true, for I may assume that your silence gives assent to that. Now what are spirits or demigods? are they not either gods or the sons of gods? Is that true?“

Meletus:
“Yes, that is true.”

Socrates:
“But this is just the ingenious riddle of which I was speaking: the demigods or spirits are gods, and you say first that I don't believe in gods, and then again that I do believe in gods; that is, if I believe in demigods. For if the demigods are the illegitimate sons of gods, whether by the Nymphs or by any other mothers, as is thought, that, as all men will allow, necessarily implies the existence of their parents. You might as well affirm the existence of mules, and deny that of horses and asses. Such nonsense, Meletus, could only have been intended by you as a trial of me. You have put this into the indictment because you had nothing real of which to accuse me. But no one who has a particle of understanding will ever be convinced by you that the same man can believe in divine and superhuman things, and yet not believe that there are gods and demigods and heroes.”

End of quote.

Now, about something mentioned previously:

- P(h)ython was the name of a dragon, which existed in the cult center for its mother, Gaia, "Earth," Pytho being the place name that was substituted for the earlier Krisa. Greeks considered the site to be the center of the earth, represented by a stone, the omphalos or navel, which Python guarded. Python became the chthonic enemy of the later Olympian deity Apollo, who slew it and took over Python's former home and oracle. These were the most famous and revered in the ancient Greek and Roman worlds. Like many monsters, Python was known as Gaia's son and prophesied as Gaia's son. Therefore, Apollo had to eliminate this opponent before establishing his temple in Delphoi.

- The Centaurs were usually said to have been born of Ixion (half-human son of god Ares) and Nephele (a cloud nymph). As the story goes, Nephele was a cloud made into the likeness of (goddess) Hera in a plot to trick Ixion into revealing his lust for Hera to the (god) Zeus. Ixion seduced Nephele and from that relationship centaurs were created. Another version, however, makes them children of Centaurus, a man who mated with the Magnesian mares. Centaurus was either himself the son of Ixion and Nephele (inserting an additional generation) or of (god) Apollo and the nymph Stilbe.

- The Amazons were a tribe of warrior women believed to live in Asia Minor. Apollonius Rhodius, in his Argonautica, mentions that the Amazons were the daughters of (god) Ares and Harmonia (a nymph of the Akmonian Wood). Lysias, Isocrates, Philostratus the Elder also say that their father was (god) Ares.

Now, WRA, judging by your own words posted here, you actively doubt the agency of your gods (i.e. that they did some things mentioned in the myths) and also doubt to the point of denial their literal “creations” – their offspring.

Therefore, I have to ask:

- “Can a man believe in spiritual and divine agencies, and not in spirits or demigods”(c) ?

- Do you really trying to convince us that that the same person professing to be a follower of the Hellenism can NOT believe in divine and superhuman things, and yet believe that there are gods*?

________
* plus maaaaaaaaybe and demigods and heroes

[Sharania]

Thank you (and Happy Easter).

Not that long ago, pagans around the world celebrated the Spring Equinox (also referred to as Ostara, where Easter gets its name). Personally, I believe the event of Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection is symbolic of rebirth and renewal, similar to the cycle of the seasons - the death and return of the sun.

Then what about Pesach? That's what the Christians appropriated for their holiday.

[Nakena]

1) Is paganism a faith or a religion?

Not a specific one. More like an very broadly defined umbrella term for a variety of, usually european rooted, religions and belief systems that are different from the monotheist/abrahamic religion group and in some cases do predate it. I'd say its more than a religion or so. It's cultural.

2) Does adhering to the paganism require a pre-modern, irrational worldview?

Thats an interesting question. I'd say not necessarily. What it does however does in my opinion does require to be real, is something way more fundamental than say "hey I worship the old gods". No it needs a break with what I call normative christianity/monotheism. Or maybe cultural christianity. That is that most people in the west including atheist and agnostics consider by default the established monotheism to be the baseline religious and spiritual belief. Like if someone talks about "God" its almost always meant with that. Other Gods and the likes aren't really assumed by default.

Paganism as a way to follow, is somehow at odds with cultural christianity. Something, that, according to my experience, most people are unable, unwilling or unaware about.

[Saint Nicholas and the Hussars]

Coolio Smoothilio B)

Ahahah.

[Aglonia]

I am not a pagan or anything (I'm Christian), but I have to say that I have some good respect for y'all. Y'all are in such a minority situation, but y'all have such strong faiths!

Thank you (and Happy Easter).

Not that long ago, pagans around the world celebrated the Spring Equinox (also referred to as Ostara, where Easter gets its name). Personally, I believe the event of Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection is symbolic of rebirth and renewal, similar to the cycle of the seasons - the death and return of the sun.

That is cool that you believe that! And actually as a Pagan, what are your views on Christianity and on Jesus Christ?

[Washington Resistance Army]

That’s very, VERY strange and… unbelievable… for here in this very thread you’ve been claiming:

Pagan-Buddhist solidarity, we will take over NS one day.

You are also a believer in Buddhism now?

I'm not sure how you interpret that, is English not your first language or something? It was a joke about us both being religious minorities on NSG?

Which invites another question – do you make sacrifices to the deities? Besides sacrificing animals (and, sometimes, humans) pagans also made “sacrifices” in the form of donations to the temples. Do you do that?

Yes. It's literally the most common thing we do, sans the donations part because afaik there's only like 2 active temples worldwide currently.

Now, WRA, judging by your own words posted here, you actively doubt the agency of your gods

I do not, otherwise I wouldn't worship them. Also I'd again point out as previously stated, there is no orthodoxy for us, individuals believe what they believe and it's a generally private matter. What matters is doing things correctly, ie cleansing oneself before rituals, prayer, libation, sacrifice and disposal of these things etc etc.

This is about as obnoxious as saying Christians who don't believe in 100% biblical literalism doubt the agency of God. Which they don't, for the record.

[Sahraliya]

I was more or less raised as a Christian, but in my early teen years I became an atheist. In my late teen years I transitioned to an agnostic and now for the past 7 years I have pretty much been a pagan. My beliefs incorporate elements from Buddhism, Shinto, and Taoism.

[Sharania]

1) Is paganism a faith or a religion?

Not a specific one. More like an very broadly defined umbrella term for a variety of, usually european rooted eligions and belief systems

According to you, animists around the world, plus Shinto and followers of the Indian deities, are not really pagans?

I'd say its more than a religion or so. It's cultural.

What you mean by "its cultural"?

2) Does adhering to the paganism require a pre-modern, irrational worldview?

Thats an interesting question. I'd say not necessarily. What it does however does in my opinion does require to be real, is something way more fundamental than say "hey I worship the old gods". No it needs a break with what I call normative christianity/monotheism. Or maybe cultural christianity. That is that most people in the west including atheist and agnostics consider by default the established monotheism to be the baseline religious and spiritual belief. Like if someone talks about "God" its almost always meant with that. Other Gods and the likes aren't really assumed by default.

But one can still rely on science and rational worldview while being a pagan?

Paganism as a way to follow, is somehow at odds with cultural christianity. Something, that, according to my experience, most people are unable, unwilling or unaware about.

What is "cultural christianity"?

[Sharania]

I'm not sure how you interpret that, is English not your first language or something? It was a joke about us both being religious minorities on NSG?

Sahraliya in this thread says they are taoisitic pagan-shinto-buddhist. So everything is possible.

Yes. It's literally the most common thing we do, sans the donations part because afaik there's only like 2 active temples worldwide currently.

So you murdered animals in the name of saying "thank you" for the assistance from the gods? Oh, and there'd always used to be many other ways to make donations to the pagan places of worship. You might just erect an altar and place things there, never touching them again, for they are now belong to the gods.

Do you have an altar, WRA?

Now, WRA, judging by your own words posted here, you actively doubt the agency of your gods

I do not, otherwise I wouldn't worship them.

Then I ask you again:

1) Do you believe that Apollo slew the dragon?

2) Did the Amazons invade Athens?

3) Do you believe in the Centaurs and their exploits?

4) Do you believe, just like the ancient Greek authors wrote merely 2000 years ago, that Theseus (whose existence, I hope, you don't doubt) descended into the realm of dead and had to be rescued by the Heracles?

5) While we are at it - do you believe in the Minotaur and the whole mess that went before and after Theseus killed him?

How come you profess to "worship" the gods, beings of supernatural power, and yet your faith gives away so often when it comes to the numerous manifestations of that supernatural power?

Also I'd again point out as previously stated, there is no orthodoxy for us, individuals believe what they believe and it's a generally private matter

It's funny, because for the Ancient people (the original pagans, who gave you their faith) it was not a "private matter". It was a matter of the state (polis) and society at large. Which meant they were actively persecuting heterodoxy in not only belief, but also in the form of worship.

All the while, btw, they did not deny logic.

What matters is doing things correctly, ie cleansing oneself before rituals, prayer, libation, sacrifice and disposal of these things etc etc.

And what is "doing things correctly"? Who and when did establish this "canon of correctness"?

[Washington Resistance Army]

So you murdered animals in the name of saying "thank you" for the assistance from the gods?

No, primarily because of my views on the matter. Libation, incense burning and other such sacrifices are the most common things nowadays, and were very common historically as well.

Do you have an altar, WRA?

Yes, most of us do except those who can't.

How come you profess to "worship" the gods, beings of supernatural power, and yet your faith gives away so often when it comes to the numerous manifestations of that supernatural power?

I think you should read Sallustius, his views inform the majority of the modern views on mythology and would likely be of interest to you since this seems to be a huge point of contention for you. My faith doesn't give way regarding myths, we just evidently have fundamentally different ways of interpreting them.

It's funny, because for the Ancient people (the original pagans, who gave you their faith) it was not a "private matter". It was a matter of the state (polis) and society at large. Which meant they were actively persecuting heterodoxy in not only belief, but also in the form of worship.

All the while, btw, they did not deny logic.

When we come to control a state again I'll give you a call and let you know if things change. Most of us don't even have other believers to interact with in person so yes it's a wholly private matter for now.

And what is "doing things correctly"? Who and when did establish this "canon of correctness"?

Thankfully compared to the other religions that met their demise a truly staggering amount of surviving literature for us to use and discern these things from.

Paganism as a way to follow, is somehow at odds with cultural christianity. Something, that, according to my experience, most people are unable, unwilling or unaware about.

Are you saying people are unaware of cultural Christianity? That's a bit of an odd take if so.

[Nakena]

According to you, animists around the world, plus Shinto and followers of the Indian deities, are not really pagans?

They are their own thing. Which is fine.

I admit theres destinctions that do not make much sense outside of an western, eurocentric context.

What you mean by "its cultural"?

See below.

But one can still rely on science and rational worldview while being a pagan?

Yes absolutly. Thats what I do personally anyways.

What is "cultural christianity"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Christian

Are you saying people are unaware of cultural Christianity? That's a bit of an odd take if so.

I am saying that they still accept christianity or the two other sister religions as the normative religion. If they go religious they go for it. Its something I observed quite a lot here and elsewhere too.

[The Alma Mater]

I am saying that they still accept christianity or the two other sister religions as the normative religion. If they go religious they go for it. Its something I observed quite a lot here and elsewhere too.

It even goes as far as that other religions do not "exist' in their minds. It is often seen in debates on the origins of mankind, where it ALWAYS becomes "the (young earth) christian view vs evolution" as if it is a dichotomy; and angles like "So why is creation by YHWH more likely than creation by Brahma, accidental seedspilling by Kronos, Atum giving himself a blowjob or Audhumla licking some ice ?" are ignored.

Heck, in the whole recent "is religion needed for society" people kept only talking about christianity, quickly moving away whenever another religion was mentioned.
And the muslims are just as bad - in the topic on misconceptions on Islam pagan religions are simply dismissed as "not real religions" for instance.

Perhaps pagans need a new word to describe their belief. Not religion, but a new word - not tainted with Abraham

[Rosmana]

Tried Paganism as a teen, did not end well, I am back in the RCC now.

[Hanafuridake]

According to you, animists around the world, plus Shinto and followers of the Indian deities, are not really pagans?

Speaking as someone who's studying to become a priest (who's job includes pujas for Indian deities) I don't have anything against pagans but I would consider it very strange to group me in with them considering my religious beliefs originate entirely out of Europe.