NationStates

As I've alluded to before, the W.H.O. has discredited itself on coronavirus. But what about the leaders who, on their advice, hesitated to enact travel bans? Their poor judgment in deferring to the W.H.O. got tens of thousands of people killed. Does the W.H.O. bear full liability for this, or do the "leaders" who listened to them deserve at least a share of the blame? (Or, at the very least, warrant stepping aside to make way for those who had the sense to suspect the W.H.O. were China's stooges from the start?) By what standard is culpability divided on this matter?

I feel there's been a shockwave of discreditings created by this virus. Pandemic spread has discredited the left on globalism. Supplies hoarding has discredited the right on capitalism. And as for comparisons to climate change... I don't know how whether the left's alarmist tone vs. hesitancy on drastic action (compared to this crisis) discredits this more, or the right's "plausible deniability" on whether or not they're actually denying climate change (Trump being an exception, of course) vs. outright opposition to even the left's half-measures (or incidentally, claiming it "fails to do anything about China" while themselves failing to do enough about China) discredits THEM more.

This whole thing is a shockwave of discreditings. I feel that if you put your faith and your trust in an "authority" on the matter and that authority gets discredited, you deserve at least some share of culpability for misplacing your faith and your trust, at least in comparison to those who were ahead of the curve on doubting them. The only question is how much of the culpability, and even I am not really sure whether that's "a lot" or "a little bit."

As for now... I would have a lot more respect for any politician who advocates the immediate abolition of the W.H.O. At least than I did before.

I agree.

Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.

Rojava Free State wrote:Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.

Don't forget the general public for "socially distancing" despite its death rate not being NEARLY as high as other diseases that we DON'T lock down our borders for!

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:As I've alluded to before, the W.H.O. has discredited itself on coronavirus. But what about the leaders who, on their advice, hesitated to enact travel bans? Their poor judgment in deferring to the W.H.O. got tens of thousands of people killed. Does the W.H.O. bear full liability for this, or do the "leaders" who listened to them deserve at least a share of the blame? (Or, at the very least, warrant stepping aside to make way for those who had the sense to suspect the W.H.O. were China's stooges from the start?) By what standard is culpability divided on this matter?

I feel there's been a shockwave of discreditings created by this virus. Pandemic spread has discredited the left on globalism. Supplies hoarding has discredited the right on capitalism. And as for comparisons to climate change... I don't know how whether the left's alarmist tone vs. hesitancy on drastic action (compared to this crisis) discredits this more, or the right's "plausible deniability" on whether or not they're actually denying climate change (Trump being an exception, of course) vs. outright opposition to even the left's half-measures (or incidentally, claiming it "fails to do anything about China" while themselves failing to do enough about China) discredits THEM more.

This whole thing is a shockwave of discreditings. I feel that if you put your faith and your trust in an "authority" on the matter and that authority gets discredited, you deserve at least some share of culpability for misplacing your faith and your trust, at least in comparison to those who were ahead of the curve on doubting them. The only question is how much of the culpability, and even I am not really sure whether that's "a lot" or "a little bit."

As for now... I would have a lot more respect for any politician who advocates the immediate abolition of the W.H.O. At least than I did before.

Hindsight is 2020. The WHO will be discredited also if they recommend proactive lockdowns (again, something that is completely unprecedented) with the attendant economic shutdown/slowdown. Why? The virus will be contained like MERS and Ebola had been and people would be like "What's the big deal with all these lockdowns! You just got me unemployed!". They'll say the WHO doth protest too much and that they acted like the boy who cried wolf.

Still, I personally prefer that the latter's what happened instead of the current situation.

Tornado Queendom wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.

Don't forget the general public for "socially distancing" despite its death rate not being NEARLY as high as other diseases that we DON'T lock down our borders for!

...Like? What possible contagious diseases with the same level of transmission as COVID-19 are there that we don't lock things down for?

Cekoviu wrote:

Tornado Queendom wrote:Don't forget the general public for "socially distancing" despite its death rate not being NEARLY as high as other diseases that we DON'T lock down our borders for!

...Like? What possible contagious diseases with the same level of transmission as COVID-19 are there that we don't lock things down for?

I mean, the flu is pretty high up there. We just don't lock down for it because it's seasonal and we play Russian Roulette with the strain of flu that we vaccinate for.

I'm just hoping COVID doesn't become seasonal for now on. The economy already has one shutdown too many. We'll be feeling this slowdown for years.

Alba and Cymru wrote:

Cekoviu wrote:...Like? What possible contagious diseases with the same level of transmission as COVID-19 are there that we don't lock things down for?

I mean, the flu is pretty high up there. We just don't lock down for it because it's seasonal and we play Russian Roulette with the strain of flu that we vaccinate for.

I'm just hoping COVID doesn't become seasonal for now on. The economy already has one shutdown too many. We'll be feeling this slowdown for years.

Covid is worse than the flu though. It's more similar to the flu than it is to the black plague, but it's still a nastier virus.

Alba and Cymru wrote:

Cekoviu wrote:...Like? What possible contagious diseases with the same level of transmission as COVID-19 are there that we don't lock things down for?

I mean, the flu is pretty high up there. We just don't lock down for it because it's seasonal and we play Russian Roulette with the strain of flu that we vaccinate for.

I'm just hoping COVID doesn't become seasonal for now on. The economy already has one shutdown too many. We'll be feeling this slowdown for years.

https://www.livescience.com/new-coronav ... h-flu.html
The coronavirus is pretty clearly worse than the flu in terms of fatality rate, although exactly how worse it is is unclear.

Rojava Free State wrote:

Alba and Cymru wrote:
I mean, the flu is pretty high up there. We just don't lock down for it because it's seasonal and we play Russian Roulette with the strain of flu that we vaccinate for.

I'm just hoping COVID doesn't become seasonal for now on. The economy already has one shutdown too many. We'll be feeling this slowdown for years.

Covid is worse than the flu though. It's more similar to the flu than it is to the black plague, but it's still a nastier virus.

Didn't say it wasn't. I'm just saying we take way less precautions with the flu because its a common occurrence. The flu was a death sentence years ago, and look where we are now.

Yes, this virus has a considerable fatality rate, but so does starvation.

Alba and Cymru wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:
Covid is worse than the flu though. It's more similar to the flu than it is to the black plague, but it's still a nastier virus.

Didn't say it wasn't. I'm just saying we take way less precautions with the flu because its a common occurrence. The flu was a death sentence years ago, and look where we are now.

Yes, this virus has a considerable fatality rate, but so does starvation.

You forgot something though, so lemme whisper this secret to you.

starvation kills more people than COVID, but the rich aren't at risk from it.

Rojava Free State wrote:

Alba and Cymru wrote:
Didn't say it wasn't. I'm just saying we take way less precautions with the flu because its a common occurrence. The flu was a death sentence years ago, and look where we are now.

Yes, this virus has a considerable fatality rate, but so does starvation.

You forgot something though, so lemme whisper this secret to you.

starvation kills more people than COVID, but the rich aren't at risk from it.

Correct. Though I would hate to see hundreds of millions of more starving people because of second Great Depression.

Alas, for many leaders, it's a great opportunity to shit on their people even more..

For Autocrats, and Others, Coronavirus Is a Chance to Grab Even More Power
Leaders around the world have passed emergency decrees and legislation expanding their reach during the pandemic. Will they ever relinquish them?

Link

Rojava Free State wrote:Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.

Yeah I agree with that assessment. Everyone has fucked up and the whole world is fucked. Not forever fucked just badly fucked. War time bad fucked.

Bombadil wrote:Alas, for many leaders, it's a great opportunity to shit on their people even more..

For Autocrats, and Others, Coronavirus Is a Chance to Grab Even More Power
Leaders around the world have passed emergency decrees and legislation expanding their reach during the pandemic. Will they ever relinquish them?

Link

I wonder what would be the best way for the emergency powers to be relinquished afterwards.

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.

Yeah I agree with that assessment. Everyone has fucked up and the whole world is fucked. Not forever fucked just badly fucked. War time bad fucked.

We fucked up as bad as Biden did when he said "we hold these truths to be self elevedent, that all men are created by-oh you know the thing."

Rojava Free State wrote:Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.

We shouldn't leave out the newsholes, either, for blathering about nothing else even when they don't have anything new to add that's actually important or well verified.

"Tonight; Can Coronavirus infect your goldfish?!? We'll tell you one doctor's shocking take!"

I've not trusted the WHO since I heard they framed that guy Roger Rabbit.

Rojava Free State wrote:Covid is worse than the flu though. It's more similar to the flu than it is to the black plague, but it's still a nastier virus.

2017-18 flu season CDC estimates 80K dead.

Let me know when coronavirus hits that peak - wait, it won't.

I guess, they'll just say that it didn't happen because they shut everything down. This wasn't how I expected capitalism to collapse, but it's fitting.

Diarcesia wrote:

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:As I've alluded to before, the W.H.O. has discredited itself on coronavirus. But what about the leaders who, on their advice, hesitated to enact travel bans? Their poor judgment in deferring to the W.H.O. got tens of thousands of people killed. Does the W.H.O. bear full liability for this, or do the "leaders" who listened to them deserve at least a share of the blame? (Or, at the very least, warrant stepping aside to make way for those who had the sense to suspect the W.H.O. were China's stooges from the start?) By what standard is culpability divided on this matter?

I feel there's been a shockwave of discreditings created by this virus. Pandemic spread has discredited the left on globalism. Supplies hoarding has discredited the right on capitalism. And as for comparisons to climate change... I don't know how whether the left's alarmist tone vs. hesitancy on drastic action (compared to this crisis) discredits this more, or the right's "plausible deniability" on whether or not they're actually denying climate change (Trump being an exception, of course) vs. outright opposition to even the left's half-measures (or incidentally, claiming it "fails to do anything about China" while themselves failing to do enough about China) discredits THEM more.

This whole thing is a shockwave of discreditings. I feel that if you put your faith and your trust in an "authority" on the matter and that authority gets discredited, you deserve at least some share of culpability for misplacing your faith and your trust, at least in comparison to those who were ahead of the curve on doubting them. The only question is how much of the culpability, and even I am not really sure whether that's "a lot" or "a little bit."

As for now... I would have a lot more respect for any politician who advocates the immediate abolition of the W.H.O. At least than I did before.

Hindsight is 2020. The WHO will be discredited also if they recommend proactive lockdowns (again, something that is completely unprecedented) with the attendant economic shutdown/slowdown. Why? The virus will be contained like MERS and Ebola had been and people would be like "What's the big deal with all these lockdowns! You just got me unemployed!". They'll say the WHO doth protest too much and that they acted like the boy who cried wolf.

Still, I personally prefer that the latter's what happened instead of the current situation.

Absolute nonsense. SARS had been downplayed by the Chinese government and now something from the same family of viruses also had been. No reasonable person would expect this to be no worse than Ebola.

Also, I'm not talking about "lockdowns," I'm talking about travel bans. You know, to prevent enough of the virus from getting into the country to make lockdowns necessary?

Tornado Queendom wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:Everybody is to blame. China for covering up COVID, The WHO for spreading misinformation, Europe for not slamming its borders shut and Trump for not preparing and trying to deflect the blame.

Don't forget the general public for "socially distancing" despite its death rate not being NEARLY as high as other diseases that we DON'T lock down our borders for!

It's more contagious than those other diseases with the high mortality rates.

China: was never credible to begin with
WHO: is discredited because they laundered China's proganda
World leaders listening to WHO: Fair enough. WHO was a respected organisation.
Capitalism: No. excessive consumption is a known and predicted consequence of price fixing measures, and one of the primary moral arguments against antigouging laws. Here's a video from a libertarian think tank, 8 years ago, on the point.
Globalism: Yes. Both on the need for border security and on the foolishness of concentrating production in foreign country. Globalism is not an exclusively left position. Both the left and the right have supporters and opponents of it.

Diarcesia wrote:

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:As I've alluded to before, the W.H.O. has discredited itself on coronavirus. But what about the leaders who, on their advice, hesitated to enact travel bans? Their poor judgment in deferring to the W.H.O. got tens of thousands of people killed. Does the W.H.O. bear full liability for this, or do the "leaders" who listened to them deserve at least a share of the blame? (Or, at the very least, warrant stepping aside to make way for those who had the sense to suspect the W.H.O. were China's stooges from the start?) By what standard is culpability divided on this matter?

I feel there's been a shockwave of discreditings created by this virus. Pandemic spread has discredited the left on globalism. Supplies hoarding has discredited the right on capitalism. And as for comparisons to climate change... I don't know how whether the left's alarmist tone vs. hesitancy on drastic action (compared to this crisis) discredits this more, or the right's "plausible deniability" on whether or not they're actually denying climate change (Trump being an exception, of course) vs. outright opposition to even the left's half-measures (or incidentally, claiming it "fails to do anything about China" while themselves failing to do enough about China) discredits THEM more.

This whole thing is a shockwave of discreditings. I feel that if you put your faith and your trust in an "authority" on the matter and that authority gets discredited, you deserve at least some share of culpability for misplacing your faith and your trust, at least in comparison to those who were ahead of the curve on doubting them. The only question is how much of the culpability, and even I am not really sure whether that's "a lot" or "a little bit."

As for now... I would have a lot more respect for any politician who advocates the immediate abolition of the W.H.O. At least than I did before.

Hindsight is 2020. The WHO will be discredited also if they recommend proactive lockdowns (again, something that is completely unprecedented) with the attendant economic shutdown/slowdown. Why? The virus will be contained like MERS and Ebola had been and people would be like "What's the big deal with all these lockdowns! You just got me unemployed!". They'll say the WHO doth protest too much and that they acted like the boy who cried wolf.

Still, I personally prefer that the latter's what happened instead of the current situation.

Maybe. They would have been wrong though. You don't need hindsight to know trusting China without verifying their claims is negligent.

Aclion wrote:World leaders listening to WHO: Fair enough. WHO was a respected organisation.

The other side of it, though... suppose someone was "ahead of the curve" on being skeptical of the WHO. Does this not lend them more credibility, now, not unlike if someone was "ahead of the curve" on any other idea?

Ankenland wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:Covid is worse than the flu though. It's more similar to the flu than it is to the black plague, but it's still a nastier virus.

2017-18 flu season CDC estimates 80K dead.

Let me know when coronavirus hits that peak - wait, it won't.

I guess, they'll just say that it didn't happen because they shut everything down. This wasn't how I expected capitalism to collapse, but it's fitting.

Uh buddy there are around 87k deaths from coronavirus. It has already surpassed that. And it will continue to rise and would be higher if we did not shut everything down. This is worse than the flu.