Replacing the UN with a new sans-China organization

[Ankenland]

Nukes do not magically solve everything, they do not make you invincible. They do not stop economic and political threats.

They only prevent an outright invasion that seeks to destroy you entirely. But obviously the PRC does not plan to seize DC and burn it to the ground. Because they do not have to to beat us.

That is like saying “why fear Ebola when you have a gun?”

Besides they are a threat to our allies as well.

Okay, how are they a threat?

Can you demonstrate any way that they have harmed a US ally, other than buying what is for sale, when everything is for sale, and using it for themselves?

You could just stop prostituting your countries to the highest bidder, and you would discover that China just wants to make money and be normal. They gave up trying to spread communism to Southeast Asia a long time ago.

Who cares if China is successful?

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

There is no sign in the declarations of the Council that the bar is lowering.

Actually there is:
https://www.algemeiner.com/2020/03/15/w ... y-victims/

Letting the fox guard the henhouse gives the fox a stake in the hen house, but also makes it easier for it to kill the chickens.

Do you think Saudi Arabia went easy on Iran? Its arch-rival?

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Nukes do not magically solve everything, they do not make you invincible. They do not stop economic and political threats.

They only prevent an outright invasion that seeks to destroy you entirely. But obviously the PRC does not plan to seize DC and burn it to the ground. Because they do not have to to beat us.

That is like saying “why fear Ebola when you have a gun?”

Besides they are a threat to our allies as well.

Okay, how are they a threat?

Can you demonstrate any way that they have harmed a US ally, other than buying what is for sale, when everything is for sale, and using it for themselves?

You could just stop prostituting your countries to the highest bidder, and you would discover that China just wants to make money and be normal. They gave up trying to spread communism to Southeast Asia a long time ago.

Who cares if China is successful?

China has become the center of the world's industrial chain. Scale effect produces cost advantage and R & D power.The population advantage makes the number of engineers larger than that of Europe as a whole. R & D investment makes China break the western technological hegemony.
Do you know what will happen next? The allies of the United States depend on their interests.
China and the United States will compete in technology, economy, finance, military and culture.
Do you know what happens when two giant companies compete? The winner gets most of the share and the loser gets less.
And then everyone else will be out.

We Chinese all love trump.Because Mr. trump is the first president to tell us that we also regard us as enemies.His honesty and integrity are highly respected by us.We used to think that Westerners were friendly to us.

[Nova Cosky]

Okay, how are they a threat?

Can you demonstrate any way that they have harmed a US ally, other than buying what is for sale, when everything is for sale, and using it for themselves?

You could just stop prostituting your countries to the highest bidder, and you would discover that China just wants to make money and be normal. They gave up trying to spread communism to Southeast Asia a long time ago.

Who cares if China is successful?

Well said

Obviously the US of A cares, they probably have this indescribable need to be the first, best and only.

Nevertheless I disagree that China just wants to be normal, they have never not stopped expanding their influence regionally or globally; the world needs to keep its eyes strained on China so that it won't ever sneak away and stab you in the back. Yet, blaming China for your own failings is just sad and despicable.

Nukes do not magically solve everything, they do not make you invincible. They do not stop economic and political threats.

They only prevent an outright invasion that seeks to destroy you entirely. But obviously the PRC does not plan to seize DC and burn it to the ground. Because they do not have to to beat us.

That is like saying “why fear Ebola when you have a gun?”

Besides they are a threat to our allies as well.

Seriously?
Your comparison is so wrong

Gun can't kill Ebola, but Nukes can.
Gun can't kill China, but Nukes can.

At the end of the day, Nukes save/destroy the day.
Therefore, the USA is still the biggest threat as the most militarized nation on Earth.
On the apocalypse scale, China still pales in comparison.

Unless your Nukes are like your 3M N95 and Hazmat - all smoke and mirrors but never real?
If so, then everyone with real nukes would be your threats.
Even your so-called allies, they might nuke you just for fun or revenge for all those years of duping them you know.

Don't ever take your eyes off China.
But stop playing the "human rights" drama, we all know how "humane" the USA is with all the niceness it had done unto all those countries caught in its amorous glances.

[Vivolkha]

We Chinese all love trump.Because Mr. trump is the first president to tell us that we also regard us as enemies.His honesty and integrity are highly respected by us.We used to think that Westerners were friendly to us.

Do not confuse opposing the Chinese government with opposing China. I personally do not have anything against China as a country or against the Chinese people, but I do have a lot against the Chinese government or the CCP. It's not like you even chose a CCP government at any point in history at all.

[Islansia Caliphate]

Why not try to resign from UN rather than abolish it? Just like Soekarno did

[Islansia Caliphate]

Okay, how are they a threat?

Can you demonstrate any way that they have harmed a US ally, other than buying what is for sale, when everything is for sale, and using it for themselves?

You could just stop prostituting your countries to the highest bidder, and you would discover that China just wants to make money and be normal. They gave up trying to spread communism to Southeast Asia a long time ago.

Who cares if China is successful?

Well said

Obviously the US of A cares, they probably have this indescribable need to be the first, best and only.

Nevertheless I disagree that China just wants to be normal, they have never not stopped expanding their influence regionally or globally; the world needs to keep its eyes strained on China so that it won't ever sneak away and stab you in the back. Yet, blaming China for your own failings is just sad and despicable.

Nukes do not magically solve everything, they do not make you invincible. They do not stop economic and political threats.

They only prevent an outright invasion that seeks to destroy you entirely. But obviously the PRC does not plan to seize DC and burn it to the ground. Because they do not have to to beat us.

That is like saying “why fear Ebola when you have a gun?”

Besides they are a threat to our allies as well.

Seriously?
Your comparison is so wrong

Gun can't kill Ebola, but Nukes can.
Gun can't kill China, but Nukes can.

At the end of the day, Nukes save/destroy the day.
Therefore, the USA is still the biggest threat as the most militarized nation on Earth.
On the apocalypse scale, China still pales in comparison.

Unless your Nukes are like your 3M N95 and Hazmat - all smoke and mirrors but never real?
If so, then everyone with real nukes would be your threats.
Even your so-called allies, they might nuke you just for fun or revenge for all those years of duping them you know.

Don't ever take your eyes off China.
But stop playing the "human rights" drama, we all know how "humane" the USA is with all the niceness it had done unto all those countries caught in its amorous glances.

"expanding their influence regionally or globally" its normal thing though. Which country/government not want to do that?

[Shanghai industrial complex]

We Chinese all love trump.Because Mr. trump is the first president to tell us that we also regard us as enemies.His honesty and integrity are highly respected by us.We used to think that Westerners were friendly to us.

Do not confuse opposing the Chinese government with opposing China. I personally do not have anything against China as a country or against the Chinese people, but I do have a lot against the Chinese government or the CCP. It's not like you even chose a CCP government at any point in history at all.

Don't get it wrong. If you are against the current Chinese government, it means that the Chinese people will not like you. Only we can criticize our government.
Our history tells us how many Western troops will step into our country if our government is not strong enough.How do you explain the war west waged against us?

Tell me, if I say now I want your government to fall because I think he's terrible. What do you think?

[Vistulange]

Do not confuse opposing the Chinese government with opposing China. I personally do not have anything against China as a country or against the Chinese people, but I do have a lot against the Chinese government or the CCP. It's not like you even chose a CCP government at any point in history at all.

Don't get it wrong. If you are against the current Chinese government, it means that the Chinese people will not like you. Only we can criticize our government.
Our history tells us how many Western troops will step into our country if our government is not strong enough.How do you explain the war west waged against us?

Tell me, if I say now I want your government to fall because I think he's terrible. What do you think?

I'm not American, but Turkish.

Iunno, if you wanted Erdoğan to fall because you think he's terrible, I'd shrug and just be fine with it, I suppose. Governments change, after all. That's how things go in proper democratic countries, at least. I reckon the same goes for Trump, Macron, Johnson, Merkel, so on and so forth; their parties may be removed from power and go into the status of opposition. How gracefully they would take such a thing is disputable, but I'm fairly certain that the Conservative Party would not try to desperately cling onto power through violence or other coercive means, were they to lose an election in the UK.

The Communist Party of China, on the other hand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tian ... e_protests

[Ankenland]

China has become the center of the world's industrial chain. Scale effect produces cost advantage and R & D power.The population advantage makes the number of engineers larger than that of Europe as a whole. R & D investment makes China break the western technological hegemony.
Do you know what will happen next? The allies of the United States depend on their interests.
China and the United States will compete in technology, economy, finance, military and culture.
Do you know what happens when two giant companies compete? The winner gets most of the share and the loser gets less.
And then everyone else will be out.

Production scales, sure - I'll believe that China can make research and development scale when I see it happen.

Countries are not giant companies, and the usefulness of your analogy ends there. Both countries (and the EU) are large and developed enough to meet their own needs. So what - China will do better trading with third countries? Who cares? Russia has a terrible economy and they are still the world's foremost nuclear power, based on how much infrastructure they have underground in the Ural mountains, which is the only kind of infrastructure that would survive an exchange.

Giving the civilian population a bunch of consumer goods does not actually do much. USA already tried this. But, I mean, sure - sell socks to India and drive around in fancy cars. You do you, China.

Do not confuse opposing the Chinese government with opposing China. I personally do not have anything against China as a country or against the Chinese people, but I do have a lot against the Chinese government or the CCP. It's not like you even chose a CCP government at any point in history at all.

Isn't this what they said about Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria before they aborted, and what they will say about the next one?

This is the most smallbrained of possible stances, which somehow tries to combine bleeding heart humanitarianism with wanting to go around picking fights into one coherent worldview. You should get a job writing for the New York Times.

"expanding their influence regionally or globally" its normal thing though. Which country/government not want to do that?

The United States already has regional influence. Something being "a normal thing" is actually not evidence that it would help anyone in the country. If the United States wants influence over raw resource exporters, it should trade with them.

Or bribe or threaten their governments, or train militias and send them in to topple the government, like what they tried to do with ISIS. That didn't work, but I guess Africa is far enough away from Russia that they might not care, the way they cared about destroying ISIS.

Or, just make them a better deal. There is nothing useful to be achieved by trying to play a zero-sum game with China. Anyway, the current limit on wealth is human capital, not raw resources.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Don't get it wrong. If you are against the current Chinese government, it means that the Chinese people will not like you. Only we can criticize our government.
Our history tells us how many Western troops will step into our country if our government is not strong enough.How do you explain the war west waged against us?

Tell me, if I say now I want your government to fall because I think he's terrible. What do you think?

I'm not American, but Turkish.

Iunno, if you wanted Erdoğan to fall because you think he's terrible, I'd shrug and just be fine with it, I suppose. Governments change, after all. That's how things go in proper democratic countries, at least. I reckon the same goes for Trump, Macron, Johnson, Merkel, so on and so forth; their parties may be removed from power and go into the status of opposition. How gracefully they would take such a thing is disputable, but I'm fairly certain that the Conservative Party would not try to desperately cling onto power through violence or other coercive means, were they to lose an election in the UK.

The Communist Party of China, on the other hand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tian ... e_protests

Since you didn't attack me directly, then I won't argue with you. About what happened in this article, the bloodshed itself is a fact. But it's far from a massacre, but I'm not going to convince you.I have no intention to comment on the rest.You're not the first person I met who thought the Chinese didn't know about it.Don't doubt others' access to information.

Let me talk about my views on the crackdown. First of all, I think it's the legal right of all governments.No matter peace or violence, how to act should be judged by the government at that time.
For instance,Does anyone know what happened on July 28, 1932?We call him Thursday massacre.MacArthur and Eisenhower's 1932 tragedy in Washington.Or Bonus Army in Wiki.
Or more recently, about the Arab Spring and the Ukrainian coups.This shows the consequences of the government's laissez faire.

Then your president and cabinet can't represent the government. Here we may have a little cognitive gap.I think this is just one term of leadership for your government, just like us. We also have our elections. Everyone has the right to vote, to nominate and to be nominated, whether or not they join the party.It's just that the people we can vote for directly go to the city level. But it's usually worth the population of a small country. At a higher level are indirect elections. I think you may not want to know more, I'll stop here.What I said about overthrowing the government is more similar to the July 15 Turkish military coup.
If you think a government is bad, just replace it.I think it's very dangerous. Why there is such a bad government in a country with so many elites. I think it's about the design of the political system.
And then I'm against Neo liberalism and white left.Many of you are against what I strongly support

[Novus America]

Nukes do not magically solve everything, they do not make you invincible. They do not stop economic and political threats.

They only prevent an outright invasion that seeks to destroy you entirely. But obviously the PRC does not plan to seize DC and burn it to the ground. Because they do not have to to beat us.

That is like saying “why fear Ebola when you have a gun?”

Besides they are a threat to our allies as well.

Okay, how are they a threat?

Can you demonstrate any way that they have harmed a US ally, other than buying what is for sale, when everything is for sale, and using it for themselves?

You could just stop prostituting your countries to the highest bidder, and you would discover that China just wants to make money and be normal. They gave up trying to spread communism to Southeast Asia a long time ago.

Who cares if China is successful?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines_v._China

Then not just go around using bribery and corruption you know. But straight out pillaging the waters of neighbors using illegal bottom trawling, seizing their islands, etc.

Nobody would care if the were successful if they would avoid imperialist claims, stop do so much damage to the world environment, stoop trying to impose their authoritarian model of censorship on everyone, etc.

They are not trying to spread “Communism” true, instead they are trying to seize as much land and power and possible.
"Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know what no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me."
George Orwell, 1984

This sums up their new ideology quite well.

And again not such much that I blame them but it is a competition, and you cannot win if you forfeit the game because you refuse to acknowledge the other team is playing.

[Ifreann]

You can’t ask the avalanche to destroy the valley before you’ve thrown the rock down the slope.

Or, in other words, the goal is to get those countries to have a stake in human rights discourse. The result of that is an improved human rights record. The reward for those countries comes in increased soft power.

Or you can co-ordinate the rest of the world in boycotting them until/unless they shape up. They can't live off whatever they can grow in the desert forever.

You want the people of Saudi Arabia to starve to death because their government doesn't respect their rights?

[Novus America]

Do not confuse opposing the Chinese government with opposing China. I personally do not have anything against China as a country or against the Chinese people, but I do have a lot against the Chinese government or the CCP. It's not like you even chose a CCP government at any point in history at all.

Don't get it wrong. If you are against the current Chinese government, it means that the Chinese people will not like you. Only we can criticize our government.
Our history tells us how many Western troops will step into our country if our government is not strong enough.How do you explain the war west waged against us?

Tell me, if I say now I want your government to fall because I think he's terrible. What do you think?

So I guess you will say the people of Taiwan are not Chinese now? Eh? They do not like the PRC government.

Anyone can say any government is bad. Anyone can criticize any government. One of the reasons the PRC government is so disliked in the US is that attitude, that the PRC government is above criticism and it has the right to silence any criticism anywhere.

You do not like our government and think it should fall? That is your right to have that opinion.
It does not offend me one bit. I would much rather such honesty than pretending you do not want it.

Besides the US government gets criticized constantly. And some of the criticism is actually not wrong. Criticism is good. Outside criticism too. Anyone should be able to criticize anyone.

[Novus America]

Okay, how are they a threat?

Can you demonstrate any way that they have harmed a US ally, other than buying what is for sale, when everything is for sale, and using it for themselves?

You could just stop prostituting your countries to the highest bidder, and you would discover that China just wants to make money and be normal. They gave up trying to spread communism to Southeast Asia a long time ago.

Who cares if China is successful?

China has become the center of the world's industrial chain. Scale effect produces cost advantage and R & D power.The population advantage makes the number of engineers larger than that of Europe as a whole. R & D investment makes China break the western technological hegemony.
Do you know what will happen next? The allies of the United States depend on their interests.
China and the United States will compete in technology, economy, finance, military and culture.
Do you know what happens when two giant companies compete? The winner gets most of the share and the loser gets less.
And then everyone else will be out.

We Chinese all love trump.Because Mr. trump is the first president to tell us that we also regard us as enemies.His honesty and integrity are highly respected by us.We used to think that Westerners were friendly to us.

Although two competitors can coexist without destroying the other, but without denying they are competitors. And still be in it to win it.

But yes, it absolutely is a competition. We are no partners, we are opponents. We compete, not cooperate. And that is fine, but why deny it?

The internet exists because the US and Soviets competed. The technology that became the internet was originally developed to coordinate shooting down Soviet bombers.

Not only is denying there is a competition denial, it misses the point. We need a competition. Without it we become complacent.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

If you think a government is bad, just replace it.I think it's very dangerous. Why there is such a bad government in a country with so many elites. I think it's about the design of the political system.

Replacing one government by another, democratically, does have downsides. Firstly I would say, in the waste involved in the new government abolishing programs of the old government. Secondly in the establishment of "mandated" programs which continue beyond when they're needed, sucking up money but unable to be abolished. And thirdly by a lack of consistent foreign policy (unlike domestic policies, foreign policy should continue the same for decades).

But those are a small price to pay for democracy.

Not all democracies have the same problems or the same strengths. But they're all pretty good, and it's not bad that they change from one party to another. In fact, them doing that fairly regularly (at least once a decade) is the sign of a healthy democracy: two or more parties are successfully competing for the votes of the people.

As to it being dangerous. Pfah. The only thing in danger is the career of politicians.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

China has become the center of the world's industrial chain. Scale effect produces cost advantage and R & D power.The population advantage makes the number of engineers larger than that of Europe as a whole. R & D investment makes China break the western technological hegemony.
Do you know what will happen next? The allies of the United States depend on their interests.
China and the United States will compete in technology, economy, finance, military and culture.
Do you know what happens when two giant companies compete? The winner gets most of the share and the loser gets less.
And then everyone else will be out.

Production scales, sure - I'll believe that China can make research and development scale when I see it happen.

Countries are not giant companies, and the usefulness of your analogy ends there. Both countries (and the EU) are large and developed enough to meet their own needs. So what - China will do better trading with third countries? Who cares? Russia has a terrible economy and they are still the world's foremost nuclear power, based on how much infrastructure they have underground in the Ural mountains, which is the only kind of infrastructure that would survive an exchange.

Giving the civilian population a bunch of consumer goods does not actually do much. USA already tried this. But, I mean, sure - sell socks to India and drive around in fancy cars. You do you, China.

Maybe my analogy really doesn't fit.Let me explain how I think technology will affect ordinary people.It's not just about products. It's about technology and the economy.
First of all, there have been three industrial revolutions.Everything we know comes from these three industrial revolutions.In the first industrial revolution, Britain became the world leader. Then to meet their demand for raw materials, they colonized a quarter of the earth.What's the effect on ordinary people?Europeans became rich and their lives improved, and they began to think that God had chosen them. It is at this time that racism is very popular. But ordinary people in other parts of the world are exploited or enslaved. Hundreds of millions of people have died, and the consequences are continuing.

The second industrial revolution brought about the decline of Europe and the rise of the United States and the Soviet Union. Because the changes in the balance of world power brought about by the second industrial revolution indirectly led to the two world wars and decades of nuclear fear.

The third industrial revolution brought about the strength of the United States. The emergence of new technologies such as the Internet has greatly strengthened the power of the United States and made it a necessary economic foundation for the United States to win the Cold War.

Maybe you don't think it has much to do with the production of consumer goods in China.First of all, China's booming economy has greatly strengthened him.In contrast, the industrial power of the west is greatly weakened, because they turn to the virtual economy.This weakens their engineering skills and the job opportunities of the lower middle class.But this part is not the subjective choice of the country, but the process of pursuing profits in the free market.What is the world's most advanced technology doing now?5G and AI.This means that the production is unmanned.This means that hundreds of millions of career needs will be eliminated.For example, what can technology replace in ten years. Assembly line workers, farmers, drivers, logistics personnel, aircraft pilots, accountants, salesmen.When you no longer need human efficiency but increase it hundreds of times, the advantage of cheap labor cost will not exist.Due to the market law, the products with the highest cost performance will occupy the leading position.This will be a disaster for the lower middle class and the third world countries. Their workers will lose their jobs, government taxes will be reduced, and the social welfare system will be unfunded.
Developed countries with weaker technology will also slowly weaken. Today Europe is weaker than the United States because of its production and technology disadvantages.But this is not to say that China is a threat to the world, but that countries with technological power, such as China, the United States and Europe, are a threat to each other and the rest of the world.Failed developed countries will be cut off from their economic sources and fall from their comfortable lives

Let's see how these consumer goods affect us now, the Internet, mobile phones, cars and healthcare. Even if Russia's present strength is a remnant of the developed technology and economy of the former Soviet Union.I insist on the supremacy of science and technology.

[Novus America]

Okay, how are they a threat?

Can you demonstrate any way that they have harmed a US ally, other than buying what is for sale, when everything is for sale, and using it for themselves?

You could just stop prostituting your countries to the highest bidder, and you would discover that China just wants to make money and be normal. They gave up trying to spread communism to Southeast Asia a long time ago.

Who cares if China is successful?

Well said

Obviously the US of A cares, they probably have this indescribable need to be the first, best and only.

Nevertheless I disagree that China just wants to be normal, they have never not stopped expanding their influence regionally or globally; the world needs to keep its eyes strained on China so that it won't ever sneak away and stab you in the back. Yet, blaming China for your own failings is just sad and despicable.

Nukes do not magically solve everything, they do not make you invincible. They do not stop economic and political threats.

They only prevent an outright invasion that seeks to destroy you entirely. But obviously the PRC does not plan to seize DC and burn it to the ground. Because they do not have to to beat us.

That is like saying “why fear Ebola when you have a gun?”

Besides they are a threat to our allies as well.

Seriously?
Your comparison is so wrong

Gun can't kill Ebola, but Nukes can.
Gun can't kill China, but Nukes can.

At the end of the day, Nukes save/destroy the day.
Therefore, the USA is still the biggest threat as the most militarized nation on Earth.
On the apocalypse scale, China still pales in comparison.

Unless your Nukes are like your 3M N95 and Hazmat - all smoke and mirrors but never real?
If so, then everyone with real nukes would be your threats.
Even your so-called allies, they might nuke you just for fun or revenge for all those years of duping them you know.

Don't ever take your eyes off China.
But stop playing the "human rights" drama, we all know how "humane" the USA is with all the niceness it had done unto all those countries caught in its amorous glances.

So that is why we nuked Ebola during the last outbreak?
When have nukes ever stopped disease? You clearly do not understand how nuclear deterrence works. If the enemy had nukes and you do to, neither will use them except as a desperate last resort. So as long as you can avoid pushing your opponent to such a point where they are so desperate and have no other way you can do whatever you want to harm them short of that and their nukes cannot do anything about it.

Nukes do not stop great power competitions.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Don't get it wrong. If you are against the current Chinese government, it means that the Chinese people will not like you. Only we can criticize our government.
Our history tells us how many Western troops will step into our country if our government is not strong enough.How do you explain the war west waged against us?

Tell me, if I say now I want your government to fall because I think he's terrible. What do you think?

So I guess you will say the people of Taiwan are not Chinese now? Eh? They do not like the PRC government.

Anyone can say any government is bad.

You do not like our government and think it should fall? That is your right to have that opinion.
It does not offend me one bit. I would much rather such honesty than pretending you do not want it.

I'm from PRC,they are from ROC,We're not really a government.But constitutionally, both sides recognize the same region as China and consider themselves as China.So CPP can't represent them,because they are separatist regimes.But in terms of international law, we can represent China.This is our civil war.
Technically speaking, there is no ceasefire agreement between the two sides, so the war is not over.Now it's a de facto ceasefire. If we strike now, we don't need to declare war

[Vistulange]

I'm not American, but Turkish.

Iunno, if you wanted Erdoğan to fall because you think he's terrible, I'd shrug and just be fine with it, I suppose. Governments change, after all. That's how things go in proper democratic countries, at least. I reckon the same goes for Trump, Macron, Johnson, Merkel, so on and so forth; their parties may be removed from power and go into the status of opposition. How gracefully they would take such a thing is disputable, but I'm fairly certain that the Conservative Party would not try to desperately cling onto power through violence or other coercive means, were they to lose an election in the UK.

The Communist Party of China, on the other hand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tian ... e_protests

Since you didn't attack me directly, then I won't argue with you. About what happened in this article, the bloodshed itself is a fact. But it's far from a massacre, but I'm not going to convince you.I have no intention to comment on the rest.You're not the first person I met who thought the Chinese didn't know about it.Don't doubt others' access to information.

Let me talk about my views on the crackdown. First of all, I think it's the legal right of all governments.No matter peace or violence, how to act should be judged by the government at that time.
For instance,Does anyone know what happened on July 28, 1932?We call him Thursday massacre.MacArthur and Eisenhower's 1932 tragedy in Washington.Or Bonus Army in Wiki.
Or more recently, about the Arab Spring and the Ukrainian coups.This shows the consequences of the government's laissez faire.

Then your president and cabinet can't represent the government. Here we may have a little cognitive gap.I think this is just one term of leadership for your government, just like us. We also have our elections. Everyone has the right to vote, to nominate and to be nominated, whether or not they join the party.It's just that the people we can vote for directly go to the city level. But it's usually worth the population of a small country. At a higher level are indirect elections. I think you may not want to know more, I'll stop here.What I said about overthrowing the government is more similar to the July 15 Turkish military coup.
If you think a government is bad, just replace it.I think it's very dangerous. Why there is such a bad government in a country with so many elites. I think it's about the design of the political system.
And then I'm against Neo liberalism and white left.Many of you are against what I strongly support

No, I don't know about what happened on July the 28th, 1932.

Let me open up Google, a search engine made by a US company.

Let's type it in: "July 28th 1932". Oh, look, the first result that comes up is a Wikipedia article: Bonus Army. Let's see what that is, then.

"The Bonus Army was a group of 43,000 demonstrators – made up of 17,000 U.S. World War I veterans, together with their families and affiliated groups – who gathered in Washington, D.C. in mid-1932 to demand early cash redemption of their service certificates.
...
Washington police met with resistance, shot at the protestors, and two veterans were wounded and later died. President Herbert Hoover then ordered the U.S. Army to clear the marchers' campsite. Army Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur commanded a contingent of infantry and cavalry, supported by six tanks. The Bonus Army marchers with their wives and children were driven out, and their shelters and belongings burned."

Well, that sounds really quite nasty, and was a thing done by the US government that I absolutely do not support. Now I know what happened on July 28th, 1932.

Could I do that for the Tiananmen Massacre, if I were a Chinese citizen living in Mainland China?

[Novus America]

So I guess you will say the people of Taiwan are not Chinese now? Eh? They do not like the PRC government.

Anyone can say any government is bad.

You do not like our government and think it should fall? That is your right to have that opinion.
It does not offend me one bit. I would much rather such honesty than pretending you do not want it.

I'm from PRC,they are from ROC,We're not really a government.But constitutionally, both sides recognize the same region as China and consider themselves as China.So CPP can't represent them,because they are separatist regimes.But in terms of international law, we can represent China.This is our civil war.
Technically speaking, there is no ceasefire agreement between the two sides, so the war is not over.Now it's a de facto ceasefire. If we strike now, we don't need to declare war

Well missing the point, the point is outsiders can and will criticize you and you need to accept and even embrace that. One can be critical of one (or both) governments without being against the people. And it is the most supreme arrogance to claim to be above criticism from others, and such an attitude will only again animosity.

And will be involved in a conflict for two governments claiming to control the same territory (although really the ROC just wants to be not attacked and oppressed, it no longer has really any thought of conquering the mainland, it was to be recognized in its own right, no longer represent the whole of China).

But what do you mean by the last part?
Strike now with what? The PRC tried all sorts of threats, bribes and political interference. And the all failed spectacularly. The PRC is loosing Taiwan, each year people there oppose the PRC more and more. The PRC is driving it away.

[Novus America]

Since you didn't attack me directly, then I won't argue with you. About what happened in this article, the bloodshed itself is a fact. But it's far from a massacre, but I'm not going to convince you.I have no intention to comment on the rest.You're not the first person I met who thought the Chinese didn't know about it.Don't doubt others' access to information.

Let me talk about my views on the crackdown. First of all, I think it's the legal right of all governments.No matter peace or violence, how to act should be judged by the government at that time.
For instance,Does anyone know what happened on July 28, 1932?We call him Thursday massacre.MacArthur and Eisenhower's 1932 tragedy in Washington.Or Bonus Army in Wiki.
Or more recently, about the Arab Spring and the Ukrainian coups.This shows the consequences of the government's laissez faire.

Then your president and cabinet can't represent the government. Here we may have a little cognitive gap.I think this is just one term of leadership for your government, just like us. We also have our elections. Everyone has the right to vote, to nominate and to be nominated, whether or not they join the party.It's just that the people we can vote for directly go to the city level. But it's usually worth the population of a small country. At a higher level are indirect elections. I think you may not want to know more, I'll stop here.What I said about overthrowing the government is more similar to the July 15 Turkish military coup.
If you think a government is bad, just replace it.I think it's very dangerous. Why there is such a bad government in a country with so many elites. I think it's about the design of the political system.
And then I'm against Neo liberalism and white left.Many of you are against what I strongly support

No, I don't know about what happened on July the 28th, 1932.

Let me open up Google, a search engine made by a US company.

Let's type it in: "July 28th 1932". Oh, look, the first result that comes up is a Wikipedia article: Bonus Army. Let's see what that is, then.

"The Bonus Army was a group of 43,000 demonstrators – made up of 17,000 U.S. World War I veterans, together with their families and affiliated groups – who gathered in Washington, D.C. in mid-1932 to demand early cash redemption of their service certificates.
...
Washington police met with resistance, shot at the protestors, and two veterans were wounded and later died. President Herbert Hoover then ordered the U.S. Army to clear the marchers' campsite. Army Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur commanded a contingent of infantry and cavalry, supported by six tanks. The Bonus Army marchers with their wives and children were driven out, and their shelters and belongings burned."

Well, that sounds really quite nasty, and was a thing done by the US government that I absolutely do not support. Now I know what happened on July 28th, 1932.

Could I do that for the Tiananmen Massacre, if I were a Chinese citizen living in Mainland China?

Another key point: “Outcome: Herbert Hoover loses 1932 Presidential election“.
Because it was nasty, the people who did it were removed from power.

Not only does the US government not try to hide it, and you are still free to say it was bad, people at the time could and did hold the government accountable.

Try doing that in the PRC. Try publicly saying what it did was bad and that the government should be held accountable.

[Ankenland]

I'll stop here.

Yes, please, stop there.

I will give you some advice on arguing with Westerners. I have had to live among these people for most of my life.

If they bring up the Tienanmen Square incident, ask:

Why do you want to talk about something that happened 31 years ago?

The generation of leadership that made these decisions is retired. It is a new government. It would make as much sense to talk about the NATO bombing of Serbia. If people want to complain about the Chinese government, they should complain about the one it has now. They don't want to do this because things like the Tienanmen Square incident are no longer happening.

See, this was a shorter response.

[Ankenland]

Try doing that in the PRC. Try publicly saying what it did was bad and that the government should be held accountable.

Why do you care about what Chinese people can say on the Chinese internet?

Worry about what you can say on American social media without getting banned for hate speech and blocked from jobs in your industry. In Europe and the UK, they just arrest you for the wrongthink.

His problem is not your problem. Solve your own problem.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

If you think a government is bad, just replace it.I think it's very dangerous. Why there is such a bad government in a country with so many elites. I think it's about the design of the political system.

Replacing one government by another, democratically, does have downsides. Firstly I would say, in the waste involved in the new government abolishing programs of the old government. Secondly in the establishment of "mandated" programs which continue beyond when they're needed, sucking up money but unable to be abolished. And thirdly by a lack of consistent foreign policy (unlike domestic policies, foreign policy should continue the same for decades).

But those are a small price to pay for democracy.

Not all democracies have the same problems or the same strengths. But they're all pretty good, and it's not bad that they change from one party to another. In fact, them doing that fairly regularly (at least once a decade) is the sign of a healthy democracy: two or more parties are successfully competing for the votes of the people.

As to it being dangerous. Pfah. The only thing in danger is the career of politicians.

First of all, if you subconsciously think that you are a democracy, China will not be democratic. I think it's ideological bias. Democracy means that the people are the masters of the countryWe have democracy, but in a different form and to a different degree than you.
And then voting is not the highest, or the best, form of democracy. Besides, there are many kinds of voting.Is voting democratic? Before modern times, many thinkers thought that he was relatively undemocratic.In ancient Greece, for example, they elected the supreme leader of the people's Congress by ballot, but decided the supreme leader by drawing lots from the candidates.Chinese think tanks believe that the main problems of Western voting democracy lie in efficiency and some interest parties.We think western candidates can only represent some interest groups, and the division caused by fighting each other will reduce efficiency.Especially now when the west is relatively weak, this kind of problem becomes more and more prominent.Of course, some countries do well. Economic success and high welfare policies have kept you confident in your system.But we also observed the irrationality of these countries' tendencies when the economy is in decline and welfare is in decline.It shows that the far right forces come to power one after another, politicians tend to stir up voters' emotions, and government policies are more aggressive.

I don't deny that our democracy is not as good as yours,But we're relatively efficient.Our system is also different from other socialist countries.Our Parliament selects the right people from the professional officials who have been in power for many years to be the top leaders.It's not as good as a direct vote democracy, which can even cause problems such as privileged class and corruption.But it's more efficient than direct voting, because you rely on media and capital propaganda, and we rely on the ability assessment of the elite.
On the other hand, our Supreme Council has reserved a fixed number of seats for fixed occupations such as workers and farmers, and government officials cannot be elected to Parliament. This ensures that our Parliament is not in the hands of politicians and capitalists.And our officials have to make their property public. All forms of income, except salaries, are illegal.Capitalists can't participate in politics, officials can't be capitalists.I have to admit that Parliament has little oversight over the supreme leader, who is more subject to the party.Since we have experienced the disadvantages of decentralization or over concentration in history, I think this system needs to be improved.You know, we had direct elections in tribal times, but then they all disappeared.We have experimented with every system in human history, slavery, Empire, constitutional monarchy, federalism, direct election system or Soviet communism.I don't think the current system is the most democratic, but it's the most beneficial system at this stage.Of course, it needs improvement
But I don't think it's worth refuting the demonization of our system