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LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:58 pm
by The New California Republic
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LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels




Hi folks! Welcome to the 9th iteration of the Left Wing Discussion Thread. As always please follow the forum rules when posting here. Take a break if you start feeling angry, instead of that anger determining the content of your posts here.

Relevant subjects for discussion include:

  • The politics, philosophies, and ideologies of the political left.
  • Left-wing perspectives on economics and political economy.
  • News and history relevant to the political left.
  • Left-wing responses to current events.
  • Left-wing perspectives on social and economic problems.
  • Political, social, cultural, and economic problems and their solutions according to the political left.
  • Leftist intersectionality with movements aimed at alleviating the suffering of oppressed minority groups such as the LGBT+ community, oppressed racial minority groups, and more.
  • The problems facing particular left-wing movements or the political left in general, and how to resolve them.



Poll History:

”What kind of Leftist are you?”
  • Centrist/Moderate/Third wayer - 279 (13%)
  • Social Liberal - 259 (12%)
  • Social Democrat - 338 (16%)
  • Green Progressive - 188 (9%)
  • Democratic Socialist - 433 (20%)
  • Marxist Communist - 246 (12%)
  • Anarchist Communist - 202 (10%)
  • Other (please state) - 176 (8%)
Total Votes: 2121 (Recorded 28/11/2016)
”What type of leftist are you?”
  • Left-leaning Centrist - 50 (12%)
  • Social Liberal - 57 (14%)
  • Social Democrat - 62 (15%)
  • Democratic Socialist - 80 (19%)
  • Marxist Communist - 59 (14%)
  • Anarchist Communist - 41 (10%)
  • Collectivist Anarchist - 9 (2%)
  • Individualist Anarchist - 10 (2%)
  • Revolutionary Syndicalist - 22 (5%)
  • Other (Please State) - 28 (7%)
Total Votes: 418 (Recorded 26/12/2016)

”What type of leftist are you?”
  • Left-leaning Centrist - 57 (13%)
  • Left/Social Liberal - 51 (12%)
  • Social Democrat - 73 (17%)
  • Democratic Socialist - 78 (18%)
  • Libertarian Marxist - 22 (5%)
  • Other Marxist - 43 (10%)
  • Social Anarchist - 31 (7%)
  • Individualist Anarchist - 13 (3%)
  • Revolutionary Syndicalist - 21 (5%)
  • Other (Please State) - 47 (11%)
Total Votes: 436 (Recorded 05/02/2017)

”Favourite Left-Wing Thinker?”
  • John Rawls - 11 (7%)
  • John Stuart Mill - 12 (8%)
  • Karl Marx - 44 (29%)
  • Max Stirner - 11 (7%)
  • Simone de Beauvoir - 1 (1%)
  • Noam Chomsky - 13 (9%)
  • Peter Kropotkin - 30 (20%)
  • Pierre-Joseph Proudhon - 6 (4%)
  • Slavoj Žižek - 7 (5%)
  • Other (Please State) - 15 (10%)
Total Votes: 150 (Recorded 19/02/2017)

”Favourite Left-Wing Politician?”
  • Bernie Sanders - 25 (17%)
  • Clement Attlee - 9 (6%)
  • Eugene V. Debs - 19 (13%)
  • Franklin D. Roosevelt - 37 (25%)
  • François Mitterand - 1 (1%)
  • Nikita Krushchev - 4 (3%)
  • Nelson Mandela - 21 (14%)
  • Salvador Allende - 8 (5%)
  • Tony Benn - 4 (3%)
  • Other (Please State) - 23 (15%)
Total Votes: 151 (Recorded 14/03/2017)

”Favourite Left-Wing Social Movement/Revolution?”
  • French Revolution, 1789 (France) - 61 (14%)
  • Spring Of Nations, 1848 (Europe) - 34 (8%)
  • October Revolution, 1917 (Russia) - 60 (14%)
  • Spanish Revolution, 1936 (Spain) - 57 (14%)
  • Chinese Communist Revolution, 1946 (China) - 14 (3%)
  • Resistance To Apartheid, 1950 (South Africa) - 24 (6%)
  • Cuban Revolution, 1953 (Cuba) - 19 (5%)
  • Civil Rights Movement, 1954 (USA) - 123 (29%)
  • Occupy Movement, 2011 (International) - 10 (2%)
  • Other (Please State) - 19 (5%)
Total Votes: 421 (Recorded 29/7/2017)

”Preferred economic system?”
  • Welfare Capitalism 92 (23%)
  • Market Socialism 62 (16%)
  • Mutualism 10 (3%)
  • Syndicalism 40 (10%)
  • Communalism 13 (3%)
  • State Planning 36 (9%)
  • Decentralised Planning 27 (7%)
  • Higher Phase Communism 38 (10%)
  • Left-wing Market Anarchism 15 (4%)
  • Other 67 (17%)
Total Votes: 400 (Recorded 05/11/2017)
Left-leaning Centrist
105 13%
Left/Social Liberal
74 9%
Social Democrat
115 14%
Democratic Socialist
139 17%
Marxist Communist
139 17%
Social Anarchist
50 6%
Individualist Anarchist
38 5%
Revolutionary Syndicalist
39 5%
Communalist
27 3%
Other (Please Post)
71 9%
Total votes : 797 (6/3/18)
Was Trotsky Polyamorous?
Yes 141 58%
Yes 103 42%
Who are the greatest threat to the Revolution?

Class traitors 9 5%
Social Democratic Fascists 17 9%
Bourgeois Homosexuals 30 16%
Kulaks 7 4%
Trotskyite Conspirator Saboteurs 16 9%
Actual Capitalists and Fascists 103 57%
Total votes : 182
Poll 1: Bread poll! Which Bread Anarchism is the best? (65 votes total)
  • Bread Santa, of course! - 3 (5%)
  • Bread Santa but more red. - 3 (5%)
  • Seriously? THIS is a poll? - 4 (6%)
  • Yes. - 3 (5%)
  • The Conquest of Bread. - 3 (5%)
  • I knead to get out of this thread. - 5 (8%)
  • Can you not be OP anymore? - 5 (8%)
  • No. - 13 (20%)
  • Fully Automated Luxury Hella Queer Space Anarchy forever! - 11 (17%) ( ;~; )
  • Torra, are you okay? Are you inbread? Because these poll options suck. - 15 (23%)

Poll 2: Roughly where do you sit on the left-wing of the political spectrum?

  • Yes. - 6 (17%)
  • Center-left, authoritarian. - 1 (3%)
  • Center-left, libertarian. - 3 (9%)
  • Center-left, centrist. - 4 (11%)
  • Mid-left, authoritarian. - 1 (3%)
  • Mid-left, libertarian. - 4 (11%)
  • Mid-left, centrist. - 3 (9%)
  • Far-left, authoritarian. - 1 (3%)
  • Far-left, libertarian. - 10 (29%)
  • Far-left, centrist. - 2 (6%)

Poll 3: Title Time! Which Title Should We Have?

  • Keep it as it is. - 4 (11%)
  • Yes. - 6 (17%)
  • Bread Dead Redemption. - 18 (50%)
  • Makhno Mistake, The Left is The Best! - 4 (11%)
  • The Right Can't Fight! - 4 (11%)
Poll 1: What do you think is currently the most successful existing example of a leftist movement globally?

  • Rojava, Northern Syria (2,000,000 people, acting as a governing body since 2014 and autonomous since 2016; Semi-Direct Democratic Libertarian Socialism) - 57 (40%)
  • The Zapatista Autonomous Communities, Chiapas, Mexico (364,000 people, autonomous since 1994; Direct Democratic Libertarian Socialism) - 37 (26%)
  • The DSA, USA (60,000 members as of 2019, founded in 1982; Democratic Socialist/Social Democratic, depending on region or person) - 11 (8%)
  • The International Workers' Association (17 member groups across the world, founded in 1922; Anarcho-Syndicalism) - 10 (7%)
  • The Committee for a Workers' Internationale (41 member groups globally, founded in 1974; Trotskyist) - 7 (5%)
  • Movement for Socialism, Bolivia (88/130 Deputies and 25/36 Senators, has democratically held power since 2006; Socialism of the 21st Century) - 20 (14%)
Poll 2: Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?
  • Other (Please Explain) - 32 (25%)
  • The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels) - 23 (18%)
  • The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin) - 24 (19%)
  • Das Kapital (Karl Marx) - 21 (16%)
  • What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon) - 2 (2%)
  • Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara) - 8 (6%)
  • Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin) - 2 (2%)
  • Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky) - 4 (3%)
  • The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner) - 8 (6%)
  • Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber) - 5 (4%)
Poll 1: Who is your favorite breadtuber?
  • ContraPoints - 44 (26%)
  • Hbomberguy - 21 (12%)
  • Shaun and Jen - 6 (3%)
  • Innuendo Studios - 8 (5%)
  • Philosophy Tube - 22 (13%)
  • Peter Coffin - 2 (1%)
  • Three Arrows - 12 (7%)
  • BadMouseProductions - 21 (12%)
  • Thought Slime - 5 (3%)
  • Other - 31 (18%)

Under which leaders (if any) was the Soviet Union socialist?
Lenin (1918-1924) 404 34%
Stalin (1924-1953) 219 19%
Khrushchev (1953-1964) 147 12%
Brezhnev (1964-1982) 122 10%
Gorbachev (1985-1991) 122 10%
Never 164 14%
If You Could Go Back in Time to See the Russian Revolution Firsthand, Would You Do It?
Yes 49 49%
No 35 35%
I'd Replace John Reed With David Hasselhoff 4 Teh Lulz 16 16%

Was the Vietnam War Justified?
It was from my perspective, and it can be from the American perspective 14 6%
It was from my perspective, and it can be from the Vietnamese perspective 21 9%
It was from my perspective, and it can be from both the American and Vietnamese perspectives 25 11%
It wasn't from my perspective, but it can be from the American perspective 25 11%
It wasn't from my perspective, but it can be from the Vietnamese perspective 53 23%
It wasn't from my perspective, but it can be from both the American and Vietnamese perspectives 27 12%
It cannot be justified from any perspective because all war is wrong 40 17%
Horror has a face, and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. 29 12%





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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:07 pm
by Kowani
Oh, look, I’m actually first.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:12 pm
by Liriena
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:She claimed the problem with Hitler was not his domestic policy, but his warmongering.


Developed a bit more that might make some sense as a take since the war and it bringing more and more "undesirables" under the regime's remit was a major factor (along with the chaotic and competitive regime structure) in the radicalisation and shift towards assembly-line murder, but it honestly sounds like she just did one of those big stupids where you talk without knowing what you're talking about, realise you're digging a hole and then just keep talking.

She did a Peterson, the poor girl.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:15 pm
by Kowani
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:She claimed the problem with Hitler was not his domestic policy, but his warmongering.


Developed a bit more that might make some sense as a take since the war and it bringing more and more "undesirables" under the regime's remit was a major factor (along with the chaotic and competitive regime structure) in the radicalisation and shift towards assembly-line murder, but it honestly sounds like she just did one of those big stupids where you talk without knowing what you're talking about, realise you're digging a hole and then just keep talking.

I seem to remember the Nazis mass murdering a bunch of undesirables before the war kicked off, so that’s still not really a good point.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:18 pm
by Dumb Ideologies
Kowani wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Developed a bit more that might make some sense as a take since the war and it bringing more and more "undesirables" under the regime's remit was a major factor (along with the chaotic and competitive regime structure) in the radicalisation and shift towards assembly-line murder, but it honestly sounds like she just did one of those big stupids where you talk without knowing what you're talking about, realise you're digging a hole and then just keep talking.

I seem to remember the Nazis mass murdering a bunch of undesirables before the war kicked off, so that’s still not really a good point.


Perhaps, but so did a bunch of other authoritarian regimes. It's the sheer scale of their deliberate mass murder that distinguishes the hitlerists as one of history's great villains and is why they cast such a long historical shadow. Regardless, it's not the point she was making, so she doesn't get any benefit of the doubt in terms of not being either a big dumb dumb or a bit of a shit.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:41 pm
by Cisairse
A friend of mind considers himself a "nonsectarian socialist" and I'm trying to figure out if that means anything other than "larper."

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:44 pm
by Albennia
Poll suggestion: support for Northumbrian independence.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:40 pm
by Rojava Free State
Cisairse wrote:A friend of mind considers himself a "nonsectarian socialist" and I'm trying to figure out if that means anything other than "larper."


He's a socialist centrist...so nothing at all actually.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:43 pm
by Rojava Free State
Candace Owens will always be a black girl no matter how much she tries to be white. Tell her to go sit in the nincompoop corner with my ex girlfriend, Sammy Sosa, and everyone else who tries to hard to be white when they're not.

It's a shame really. She's fairly attractive but she's also fairly dumb so it cancels her appearance out in my eyes. I can't date a dumb woman, I find being a dickhead to be a major turnoff.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:49 pm
by United Muscovite Nations
Alexander the Great was a BLANQUIST

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:49 pm
by Moscareinas
not enough engels mobbing all y'all with warnings, yo

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:16 pm
by Rojava Free State
How I fell down the alt-left rabbithole.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:37 pm
by United Muscovite Nations
Rojava Free State wrote:Candace Owens will always be a black girl no matter how much she tries to be white. Tell her to go sit in the nincompoop corner with my ex girlfriend, Sammy Sosa, and everyone else who tries to hard to be white when they're not.

It's a shame really. She's fairly attractive but she's also fairly dumb so it cancels her appearance out in my eyes. I can't date a dumb woman, I find being a dickhead to be a major turnoff.

Your ex girlfriend is Sammy Sosa?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:18 pm
by Rojava Free State
United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:Candace Owens will always be a black girl no matter how much she tries to be white. Tell her to go sit in the nincompoop corner with my ex girlfriend, Sammy Sosa, and everyone else who tries to hard to be white when they're not.

It's a shame really. She's fairly attractive but she's also fairly dumb so it cancels her appearance out in my eyes. I can't date a dumb woman, I find being a dickhead to be a major turnoff.

Your ex girlfriend is Sammy Sosa?


No. Oh God no grammar why?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:19 pm
by Rojava Free State
Point is, Candace Owens is Big Dumb.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:08 am
by Kowani
Rojava Free State wrote:Point is, Candace Owens is Big Dumb.

That’s not a point so much as it is a law of reality.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:01 am
by United Muscovite Nations
Look at all those oldfriends using the old thread like a bunch of losers.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:05 am
by Albrenia
So in ye olde Communism, who owns a business where the production is done by self-maintaining robots?

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:11 am
by United Muscovite Nations
Albrenia wrote:So in ye olde Communism, who owns a business where the production is done by self-maintaining robots?

The proletariat.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:22 am
by Dumb Ideologies
Albrenia wrote:So in ye olde Communism, who owns a business where the production is done by self-maintaining robots?


It's coordinated by the Central Proletarianising Unit

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:24 am
by Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
Quick, before this becomes another ‘Right wing buzzwords about anything left of centre’ thread.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:29 am
by New haven america
Fekking damnit I missed the first post.

Oh well, time to bide my time till next thread.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:29 am
by United Muscovite Nations
New haven america wrote:Fekking damnit I missed the first post.

Oh well, time to bide my time till next thread.

You get used to it.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:26 am
by Greater Miami Shores
The leftists and the right wingers just have very different, economic, political, social and cultural views, it does not mean the right wingers are bad and evil and the leftists are good. It does not mean the leftists are bad and evil and the right wingers are good. We have very different ways of thinking.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:48 am
by Dumb Ideologies
Greater Miami Shores wrote:The leftists and the right wingers just have very different, economic, political, social and cultural views, it does not mean the right wingers are bad and evil and the leftists are good. It does not mean the leftists are bad and evil and the right wingers are good. We have very different ways of thinking.


If we didn't believe some views and systems to be morally better than others we'd all be apolitical rather than wasting our time on political forums. While some systems may be better than others, it is true that many individuals on the "other side" of an issue may have good intentions and be the victims of bad ideology keeping their thought within a particular cage. Some people on either side are also just jerks or very bad at debating.

Entire sides aren't "evil", but neither are everyone's opinions worth exactly the same to the extent we can just go "just different" and leave it at that.