LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

[Cisairse]

For example, a labor union which elects a shop steward via majority vote is now a hierarchical power structure due to the increased level of power/influence that the shop steward holds in comparison to laymembers of the union.

The nuance here is that power is arguably distributed more horizontally and to a larger number of people than under a monarchy or tyranny.

I agree. I myself am extremely pro-democracy, and believe that democratic socialism with democratic industry is the best way to organize a society.

But I also admit that this does pull me somewhat away from the left edge of the political compass; there are those out there who believe in the abolition of all hierarchies. It's difficult for me to imagine a serious proposal for a hierarchy-less society that isn't ancom in nature, though.

[Kowani]

Probably a lot of south american countries would be unironically better off if they followed the Costa Rican example.

But then we wouldn't get cool aesthetics.

Aesthetics are for suckers. Get results.

[Hakons]

Asking people who have been forced out of work, as a result of a pandemic, and who already live stub to stub, to pay rent is a quick and fast way to get your ass sent to Hell upon death.

After some thought, this is the correct take tbh. People shouldn't be forced to pay rent if they lost their job to a plague.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Asking people who have been forced out of work, as a result of a pandemic, and who already live stub to stub, to pay rent is a quick and fast way to get your ass sent to Hell upon death.

After some thought, this is the correct take tbh. People shouldn't be forced to pay rent if they lost their job to a plague.

People should not pay rent at all, tbh.

[Duvniask]

After some thought, this is the correct take tbh. People shouldn't be forced to pay rent if they lost their job to a plague.

People should not pay rent at all, tbh.

It's almost like people should get real work that benefits society instead of leeching off people.

[Diahon]

People should not pay rent at all, tbh.

It's almost like people should get real work that benefits society instead of leeching off people.

work is overrated
no, worse than that -- if modern society has a loathing for "bums" of all stripes, imagine the intensity of that feeling under any self-respecting lefty regimen

[Cambrian Albany]

We're still equal before God. But that's not to say some people are just more attractive than others, more intelligent, more dextrous.. we all have our gifts but we are better than others in certain areas and sometimes in ways which will lead your fellow humans to make a split second judgement about you. For example some people may be more inclined to be more attentive to a pretty girl and some such. Inequality is perpetuated by nature. Some parts of the world are more fertile, or more susceptible to natural disasters such as earthquakes or tsunamis.

ok, so i'm going to stop you right fucking there
for difference does not equal inequality
furthermore, to say that your god or any other looks at us equally while blathering that humanity must insist on different standards that must disadvantage some of its own is fucking rich

Of course it equals inequality.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

It's almost like people should get real work that benefits society instead of leeching off people.

work is overrated
no, worse than that -- if modern society has a loathing for "bums" of all stripes, imagine the intensity of that feeling under any self-respecting lefty regimen

It’s a very selective hatred, that does not reach certain bums, like landlords and trust fun babies. Our society hates hard-working poor people more than entirely unproductive rich people.

People should not pay rent at all, tbh.

It's almost like people should get real work that benefits society instead of leeching off people.

Yeah. Getting money solely for having Roman ownership of a building is probably among the least earned money we have in our economy. That and land speculation and bitcoin.

[The Alma Mater]

work is overrated
no, worse than that -- if modern society has a loathing for "bums" of all stripes, imagine the intensity of that feeling under any self-respecting lefty regimen

It’s a very selective hatred, that does not reach certain bums, like landlords and trust fun babies. Our society hates hard-working poor people more than entirely unproductive rich people.

It's almost like people should get real work that benefits society instead of leeching off people.

Yeah. Getting money solely for having Roman ownership of a building is probably among the least earned money we have in our economy. That and land speculation and bitcoin.

You forgot flash trading.

[Ostroeuropa]

ok, so i'm going to stop you right fucking there
for difference does not equal inequality
furthermore, to say that your god or any other looks at us equally while blathering that humanity must insist on different standards that must disadvantage some of its own is fucking rich

Of course it equals inequality.

Is this a "I hate Mondays" thing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yts2F44RqFw

[Rojava Free State]

It's interesting to see how forms of government ostensibly designed with the intent towards consensus - or at least representative - government slowly devolve and deteriorate into something that nobody at any point really wanted.

Personally I think it comes down to the culture clash between the hierarchical nature of capitalism and the egalitarian ideals of a democracy.

I'd say it's the opposite. Democracy is hierarchical by nature. It seems natural to me that any society with competing ideas would eventually drift into a state that leaves a ton of people — possibly even most people — in a position that they don't want to be in. Of course, while that's probably true for democratic societies, it's explicitly true for autocratic societies.

I feel like France has it right. Just throw away your political system and replace it every half century or so.

I would say Republics are hierarichal. Direct democracy isn't as much.

[Rojava Free State]

work is overrated
no, worse than that -- if modern society has a loathing for "bums" of all stripes, imagine the intensity of that feeling under any self-respecting lefty regimen

It’s a very selective hatred, that does not reach certain bums, like landlords and trust fun babies. Our society hates hard-working poor people more than entirely unproductive rich people.

It's almost like people should get real work that benefits society instead of leeching off people.

Yeah. Getting money solely for having Roman ownership of a building is probably among the least earned money we have in our economy. That and land speculation and bitcoin.

Those people can afford to pay a whole lot more toward helping working class families survive.

[Rostavykhan]

YOU NOBLE DIGGERS ALL STAND UP NOW, STAND UP NOW.

It is real /fuck landlord/ hours now.

[Cisairse]

work is overrated
no, worse than that -- if modern society has a loathing for "bums" of all stripes, imagine the intensity of that feeling under any self-respecting lefty regimen

It’s a very selective hatred, that does not reach certain bums, like landlords and trust fun babies. Our society hates hard-working poor people more than entirely unproductive rich people.

It's almost like people should get real work that benefits society instead of leeching off people.

Yeah. Getting money solely for having Roman ownership of a building is probably among the least earned money we have in our economy. That and land speculation and bitcoin.

Hey, you can buy things with bitcoin.

It's Dogecoin that is the real enemy.

[Cisairse]

I'd say it's the opposite. Democracy is hierarchical by nature. It seems natural to me that any society with competing ideas would eventually drift into a state that leaves a ton of people — possibly even most people — in a position that they don't want to be in. Of course, while that's probably true for democratic societies, it's explicitly true for autocratic societies.

I feel like France has it right. Just throw away your political system and replace it every half century or so.

I would say Republics are hierarichal. Direct democracy isn't as much.

Republic just means "not a monarchy;" there nothing inherently hierarchical about them.

In fact I would argue that in order for a non-anarchistic society to be non-hierarchical, it must be a republic.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

I would say Republics are hierarichal. Direct democracy isn't as much.

Republic just means "not a monarchy;" there nothing inherently hierarchical about them.

In fact I would argue that in order for a non-anarchistic society to be non-hierarchical, it must be a republic.

It does not. Not all non-monarchist states are republics. In order to be a liberal democracy, you need to have respect for basic human rights and a system of universal voting. Otherwise, there are plenty of categories of fascist dictatorship that a state can be without being a republic.

It does not matter that they call themselves a republic, since they really aren't.

It’s a very selective hatred, that does not reach certain bums, like landlords and trust fun babies. Our society hates hard-working poor people more than entirely unproductive rich people.


Yeah. Getting money solely for having Roman ownership of a building is probably among the least earned money we have in our economy. That and land speculation and bitcoin.

Hey, you can buy things with bitcoin.

It's Dogecoin that is the real enemy.

The fact that you can buy things with bitcoin does not mean that bitcoin speculation is not one of the least helpful ways to invest your money. Dollars are real, and landlords are still bastard leeches upon society.

[Cisairse]

Republic just means "not a monarchy;" there nothing inherently hierarchical about them.

In fact I would argue that in order for a non-anarchistic society to be non-hierarchical, it must be a republic.

It does not. Not all non-monarchist states are republics. In order to be a liberal democracy, you need to have respect for basic human rights and a system of universal voting. Otherwise, there are plenty of categories of fascist dictatorship that a state can be without being a republic.

It does not matter that they call themselves a republic, since they really aren't.

There's a difference between a democracy and a republic. Fascism is one form of non-democratic government, but being organized into a fascist state doesn't make you somehow not a monarchy or not a republic. For example, fascist Italy (1936-1943) was a monarchy and the Soviet Union was a republic. Neither were democracies.

"Republic" refers to the legitimacy of the state, not the organization of the government.

[Cisairse]

Thoughts on Vietnam's partial privatization?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Thoughts on Vietnam's partial privatization?

Dengism and related theories have their roots in Marxist theory even if I would say I doubt the commitment of those implementing them to the values of the Party.

[Cisairse]

Thoughts on Vietnam's partial privatization?

Dengism and related theories have their roots in Marxist theory even if I would say I doubt the commitment of those implementing them to the values of the Party.

I believe that Đổi Mớism is different from Dengism, as the Chính sách Đổi Mới created a system where only small/medium-sized businesses can be privately owned; large enterprises and much of the economy is still nationalized and centrally planned. It's mostly just service jobs and commodity production that is privatized; banking, agriculture, and non-commodity production are still socialized, unlike in China.

The World Bank actually offered Vietnam barrels full of money if they privatized more of their industry and they gave them the finger.

[Salus Maior]

I would say Republics are hierarichal. Direct democracy isn't as much.

Republic just means "not a monarchy;" there nothing inherently hierarchical about them.

In fact I would argue that in order for a non-anarchistic society to be non-hierarchical, it must be a republic.

......That's not at all what "Republic" means. It means a representative government.

Typically done via electing political representatives to form a government.

[Nap the Magnificent]

TIL the Roman Republic didn't have a hierarchy.

[Salus Maior]

TIL the Roman Republic didn't have a hierarchy.

Not enough of one.

AUGUSTUS DO IT AGAIN.

[Cisairse]

Republic just means "not a monarchy;" there nothing inherently hierarchical about them.

In fact I would argue that in order for a non-anarchistic society to be non-hierarchical, it must be a republic.

......That's not at all what "Republic" means. It means a representative government.

Typically done via electing political representatives to form a government.

Republic refers to the state, not the government. It is "representative" in the sense that republics derive legitimacy from public ownership (ie the state is the representation of the people), but it is not "representative" in the sense that actual named "representatives" are holding the levers of power in the government.

Republic, form of government in which a state is ruled by representatives of the citizen body. Modern republics are founded on the idea that sovereignty rests with the people, though who is included and excluded from the category of the people has varied across history. Because citizens do not govern the state themselves but through representatives, republics may be distinguished from direct democracy, though modern representative democracies are by and large republics. The term republic may also be applied to any form of government in which the head of state is not a hereditary monarch.

—Encyclopædia Britannica. In the non-democratic Nazi Germany, Hitler ruled as the representative of the citizen body. Nazi Germany was a republic. It was not a democracy, there were no real elections (during the non-democratic phase of the state, that is), etc. But it was a republic, as it was not a monarchy nor did the state derive its legitimacy from external means (such as military imposition).

Democracy, on the other hand, refers to an organization of government in which the general public exercises some degree of authority over decision-making.

"Republics, though often associated with democracy because of the shared principle of rule by consent of the governed, are not necessarily democracies, as republicanism does not specify how the people are to rule."

[Cisairse]

TIL the Roman Republic didn't have a hierarchy.

Can you tell the difference between squares and rectangles?