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LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What kind of Leftist are you?

Centrist/Moderate/Third wayer.
17
12%
Social Liberal
10
7%
Social Democrat
22
16%
Green Progressive
7
5%
Democratic Socialist
25
18%
Marxist Communist
19
14%
Anarchist Communist
20
14%
Other (please state)
20
14%
 
Total votes : 140

User avatar
Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16699
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Cekoviu » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:08 pm

Mirial Magna wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:I like capitalism

Everyone unite against the liberal.

Joke's on you, I can pretend to be oppressed and get tons of money on Patreon if you do that
RWDT - REST IN POWER
David Hume fangirl, massive Tuvaboo, anti-imperialist, and Castroist socialist. Also a sex-negative SWERF, traditionalist SJW, and Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian.
/tʃɛ'koʊ.vi:.ju:/ (check-OH-vee-you)

User avatar
LRON
Diplomat
 
Posts: 648
Founded: Jan 20, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby LRON » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:09 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
LRON wrote:Well then why can't society do that against the she males? After all, isn't that frowned upon?

First of all, gross
Second of all, because it's not necessary or helpful

To you, perhaps. Much as I'm sure the right-wing chaps you'd love to suppress feel the same way about you trying to "self-regulate" them out of society.
Ravenous, ridiculous, and rakish!
Political fixer turned novelist.
Upper Class Anglo-Indian.
Proud Tory, but no longer a member of the Conservative Party.
Enthusiastically eccentric.

User avatar
Fahran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12221
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:09 pm

You’re just lying here.

The word aristocracy was used. Then, a reference was made to Republican Rome and feudalism. Only afterwards did the poster say ‘but I meant Platonic Aristocracy’, to which the response was ‘then you should have defined that more clearly’.

The way you make it sound, someone wanted to discuss Platonic aristocracy and we all said ‘BOOOOOOHHHH’, which is clearly not what happened.

The word aristocracy was employed initially by you to describe the officials of the Communist Party in Cuba, who aren't a feudal elite and aren't aristocrats in any traditional sense of the word. Another poster challenged that assertion and argued that the better term would be kleptocrats. Additionally, you equated aristocrats with capitalists despite those terms not necessarily coinciding for much of history or in political thought. I'm merely going to reiterate that you don't get to define terms in a haphazard way while expecting anyone beyond your own narrow circle to uncritically accept your definitions. Even if we take the state capitalist argument made by left communists without scrupples, it doesn't follow that Cuba is presently an aristocracy in any historically or politically relevant sense. So, no, I'm not lying. You're just being lazy with your terms.

I don't really care what you think about that, to be honest. You should not betray an oppressed group of people for your own gain, and being a part of the very group you're betraying makes it especially vile. The Jews in Israel of today are not oppressed, they are doing the oppressing; contrary to what you're implying there, the situation where you're "betraying" matters quite a lot.

"I don't care that I'm being racist." Um, cool?

Jewish people are an oppressed group globally. We're the religious group that's most likely to face hate crimes and bigotry in the United States. We've experienced multiple genocides and expulsions. The fact that we have enjoyed a seventy year period of strength over a population that previously engaged in pogroms and attacks against us does not abolish the entirety of history. A Jewish person who opposes Zionism is actively reducing the options and theoretical rights of all Jewish people, sometines in favor of promoting the rights of a group that has historically persecuted Jewish people. It's still problematic for a non-Jewish person to call a Jewish person anything that approximates the term "race traitor." Like I said, stay in your lane. If you start shouting that at someone outside your narrow bubble, you're going to catch heat for it. Because you're still a white person. It's not your place. You don't get to regulate communities you don't belong to.
Last edited by Fahran on Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Mirial Magna
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 434
Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Mirial Magna » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:11 pm

LRON wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:First of all, gross
Second of all, because it's not necessary or helpful

To you, perhaps. Much as I'm sure the right-wing chaps you'd love to suppress feel the same way about you trying to "self-regulate" them out of society.

My policy is to let people speak as long as they aren't threatening targeted harm.
Abril 8, 4020: The Republic has tracked General Grievous to Utapau! Perhaps this terrible clone war is finally coming to an end, even if we are on the losing side.

We do not use NS stats, but we do use the outcome of events.
❂Put this in your sig if you don't trust China on account of them being asshoe.❂
------------ Me and the boys sneaking into this signature.

User avatar
Dumb Ideologies
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43847
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:11 pm

LRON wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Community self-regulation isn't authoritarianism
This is an incredibly simple concept

Well then why can't society do that against the she males? After all, isn't that frowned upon?


Because the tradtraps are the brave new hope for the gender binary and will destroy the lgbtwtfbbq from within.

Keep this under your hat, old chap.
Tʜᴇ Mᴏsᴛʟʏ Pᴇᴀᴄᴇғᴜʟ Rɪᴏᴛɪɴɢ ᴏғ Dᴜᴍʙ Iᴅᴇᴏʟᴏɢɪᴇs
¸„¤*˜*¤„¸„¤*˜*¤„¸ To culture war! The cause of and solution to all of life's problems ¸„¤*˜*¤„¸„¤*˜*¤„¸
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane ~ Marcus Aurelius
♆ P ᴀ x D I ᴀ ʙ ᴏ ʟ ɪ ᴄ ᴀ ♆

User avatar
Cisairse
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10808
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:13 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Top left/top right/bottom right unity against the deplatform gang.

Deplatform gang unity against authoritarians and rightists


bottom left rise up

but not that far
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

I officially endorse Fivey Fox for president of the United States.

User avatar
Fahran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12221
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:16 pm

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
LRON wrote:Well then why can't society do that against the she males? After all, isn't that frowned upon?


Because the tradtraps are the brave new hope for the gender binary and will destroy the lgbtwtfbbq from within.

Keep this under your hat, old chap.

I, for one, welcome our new nonbinary fascist overlords.

User avatar
Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16699
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Cekoviu » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:17 pm

LRON wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:First of all, gross
Second of all, because it's not necessary or helpful

To you, perhaps. Much as I'm sure the right-wing chaps you'd love to suppress feel the same way about you trying to "self-regulate" them out of society.

I don't care
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
LRON wrote:Well then why can't society do that against the she males? After all, isn't that frowned upon?


Because the tradtraps are the brave new hope for the gender binary and will destroy the lgbtwtfbbq from within.

Keep this under your hat, old chap.

ew
RWDT - REST IN POWER
David Hume fangirl, massive Tuvaboo, anti-imperialist, and Castroist socialist. Also a sex-negative SWERF, traditionalist SJW, and Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian.
/tʃɛ'koʊ.vi:.ju:/ (check-OH-vee-you)

User avatar
Mirial Magna
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 434
Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Mirial Magna » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:17 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Deplatform gang unity against authoritarians and rightists


bottom left rise up

but not that far

Rise all the way up.
Now sliide to the right!

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
LRON wrote:Well then why can't society do that against the she males? After all, isn't that frowned upon?


Because the tradtraps are the brave new hope for the gender binary and will destroy the lgbtwtfbbq from within.

Keep this under your hat, old chap.

>TFW no trans tradwife.
Last edited by Mirial Magna on Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Abril 8, 4020: The Republic has tracked General Grievous to Utapau! Perhaps this terrible clone war is finally coming to an end, even if we are on the losing side.

We do not use NS stats, but we do use the outcome of events.
❂Put this in your sig if you don't trust China on account of them being asshoe.❂
------------ Me and the boys sneaking into this signature.

User avatar
Dumb Ideologies
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43847
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:19 pm

Mirial Magna wrote:
Cisairse wrote:
bottom left rise up

but not that far

Rise all the way up.
Now sliide to the right!


Very bad praxis. You jump to the left, then step to the right.
Tʜᴇ Mᴏsᴛʟʏ Pᴇᴀᴄᴇғᴜʟ Rɪᴏᴛɪɴɢ ᴏғ Dᴜᴍʙ Iᴅᴇᴏʟᴏɢɪᴇs
¸„¤*˜*¤„¸„¤*˜*¤„¸ To culture war! The cause of and solution to all of life's problems ¸„¤*˜*¤„¸„¤*˜*¤„¸
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane ~ Marcus Aurelius
♆ P ᴀ x D I ᴀ ʙ ᴏ ʟ ɪ ᴄ ᴀ ♆

User avatar
Fahran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12221
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:19 pm

Cekoviu wrote:First of all, gross
Second of all, because it's not necessary or helpful

Technically, anybody can cancel anybody. It's a brave new world, anon.

I'm off to cancel VICE News.

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Very bad praxis. You jump to the left, then step to the right.

To the left, to the left... everything you own in a box to the left...
Last edited by Fahran on Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Cisairse
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10808
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:20 pm

Mirial Magna wrote:
Cisairse wrote:
bottom left rise up

but not that far

Rise all the way up.
Now sliide to the right!


never
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

I officially endorse Fivey Fox for president of the United States.

User avatar
Mirial Magna
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 434
Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Mirial Magna » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:20 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Mirial Magna wrote:Rise all the way up.
Now sliide to the right!


never

I'll give you a cookie.
Abril 8, 4020: The Republic has tracked General Grievous to Utapau! Perhaps this terrible clone war is finally coming to an end, even if we are on the losing side.

We do not use NS stats, but we do use the outcome of events.
❂Put this in your sig if you don't trust China on account of them being asshoe.❂
------------ Me and the boys sneaking into this signature.

User avatar
Cisairse
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10808
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:21 pm

Mirial Magna wrote:
Cisairse wrote:
never

I'll give you a cookie.


I reject your ability to control who does and does not have cookies based on any criteria other than need.
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

I officially endorse Fivey Fox for president of the United States.

User avatar
Fahran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12221
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:21 pm

Mirial Magna wrote:I'll give you a cookie.

I bake cookies for TradCon Gang. Because gender roles. :p

Cisairse wrote:I reject your ability to control who does and does not have cookies based on any criteria other than need.

Do I need to put up a "don't tread on me" flag in my kitchen? Again?
Last edited by Fahran on Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16699
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Cekoviu » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:22 pm

Fahran wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:First of all, gross
Second of all, because it's not necessary or helpful

Technically, anybody can cancel anybody. It's a brave new world, anon.

I'm off to cancel VICE News.

See, but in my vision of the world, only people with my exact opinions can cancel people, so that wouldn't be an issue
RWDT - REST IN POWER
David Hume fangirl, massive Tuvaboo, anti-imperialist, and Castroist socialist. Also a sex-negative SWERF, traditionalist SJW, and Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian.
/tʃɛ'koʊ.vi:.ju:/ (check-OH-vee-you)

User avatar
Fahran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12221
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:23 pm

Cekoviu wrote:See, but in my vision of the world, only people with my exact opinions can cancel people, so that wouldn't be an issue

But your opinions are wrong. :p

User avatar
Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16699
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Cekoviu » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:24 pm

Fahran wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:See, but in my vision of the world, only people with my exact opinions can cancel people, so that wouldn't be an issue

But your opinions are wrong. :p

No u
RWDT - REST IN POWER
David Hume fangirl, massive Tuvaboo, anti-imperialist, and Castroist socialist. Also a sex-negative SWERF, traditionalist SJW, and Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian.
/tʃɛ'koʊ.vi:.ju:/ (check-OH-vee-you)

User avatar
Mirial Magna
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 434
Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Mirial Magna » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:24 pm

Fahran wrote:
Mirial Magna wrote:I'll give you a cookie.

I bake cookies for TradCon Gang. Because gender roles. :p

Wait, you're a based female?

Simp time.
Abril 8, 4020: The Republic has tracked General Grievous to Utapau! Perhaps this terrible clone war is finally coming to an end, even if we are on the losing side.

We do not use NS stats, but we do use the outcome of events.
❂Put this in your sig if you don't trust China on account of them being asshoe.❂
------------ Me and the boys sneaking into this signature.

User avatar
Fahran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12221
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:28 pm

Mirial Magna wrote:Wait, you're a based female?

Simp time.

I have a spray bottle for occasions like this.

Also, I would not go back to the time of the Russian Revolution. I'm much too Jewish to fit in with Whites since they loved their pogroms. I have an instinctual loathing of Marxism-Leninism that would see the Reds send me to a gulag or into exile. Literally, a no-win situation.

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Proctopeo
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11801
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Proctopeo » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:32 pm

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Top left/top right/bottom right unity against the deplatform gang.

it's funny how the most ardent supporters of deplatforming and corporate censorship are the left-libertarians

you'd expect them to, you know, oppose both of those things, at least the vast majority of the time, instead of basically never

Mirial Magna wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Deplatform gang unity against authoritarians and rightists

Empowering corporate monopolies by giving them the power to censor their opponents to *checks script* own the... capitalists?

Twitter is part of the intelligentsia, haven't you heard?
ec 4.38 soc -3.95
I don't like most tankies/red fascists
China Lied, People Died.
6500 Year-Old Soomer
RIP the LWDT and RWDT, may their legacy live on

User avatar
Fahran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12221
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:34 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Top left/top right/bottom right unity against the deplatform gang.

it's funny how the most ardent supporters of deplatforming and corporate censorship are the left-libertarians

you'd expect them to, you know, oppose both of those things, at least the vast majority of the time, instead of basically never

Owning the cons/fash is more important than owning the caps.

User avatar
Duvniask
Senator
 
Posts: 4680
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:39 pm

Fahran wrote:
I don't really care what you think about that, to be honest. You should not betray an oppressed group of people for your own gain, and being a part of the very group you're betraying makes it especially vile. The Jews in Israel of today are not oppressed, they are doing the oppressing; contrary to what you're implying there, the situation where you're "betraying" matters quite a lot.

"I don't care that I'm being racist." Um, cool?

No, I am not being racist for saying that Jewish people are capable of committing great wrong against their own. Your accusations of racism are a shield to protect yourself and other Jewish people from criticism.

Jewish people are an oppressed group globally. We're the religious group that's most likely to face hate crimes and bigotry in the United States. We've experienced multiple genocides and expulsions. The fact that we have enjoyed a seventy year period of strength over a population that previously engaged in pogroms and attacks against us does not abolish the entirety of history.

Using past oppression to justify current oppression is nothing but continuing the ugly wheel of history.

A Jewish person who opposes Zionism is actively reducing the options and theoretical rights of all Jewish people, sometines in favor of promoting the rights of a group that has historically persecuted Jewish people.

Lol, so that makes racism and persecution against Palestinians okay I guess. Two wrongs don't make a right. The Holocaust doesn't make it okay for IDF snipers to murder children in cold blood.

It's still problematic for a non-Jewish person to call a Jewish person anything that approximates the term "race traitor."

Jews for Hitler weren't race traitors then, I guess.

Like I said, stay in your lane.

No.

If you start shouting that at someone outside your narrow bubble, you're going to catch heat for it.

I have plenty of opinions for which I can already catch heat. That fact in itself doesn't concern me.

Because you're still a white person. It's not your place.

How dare the Whitey think a Jewish person can be wrong about something.

Listen, don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. If you're gonna defend an oppressive ethno-state that routinely terrorizes and murders Palestinian civilians, I'm not going to be convinced you care the least about racism. Israel is an Apartheid state engaged in illegal occupation and colonization of Palestinian land. Anti-semitism should never be used to justify new avenues of oppression.
Last edited by Duvniask on Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Out of the ashes
The eagle rises still
Freedom is calling
To all men who bend their will

Lowly Marxian student of political science. Servant of anTIFA.

User avatar
Fahran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12221
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:52 pm

Duvniask wrote:No, I am not being racist for saying that Jewish people are capable of committing great wrong against their own. Your accusations of racism are a shield to protect yourself and other Jewish people from criticism.

You initially made the remark about black people. My point is that it's problematic of you as a white person to reference a person's betrayal of their racial and ethnic interest, which are not yours, when criticizing a position they hold, especially when you do so by evoking a term that's tantamount to "race traitor." If you called Candace Owens a "Tom" in front of an apolitical group of African Americans, they'd probably jump your shit - because, again, it's not your place. White progressives get way too comfortable.

Duvniask wrote:Using past oppression to justify current oppression is nothing but continuing the ugly wheel of history.

Nonsense. The entire argument is that a compelling justification exists to maintain the Zionist project and that opposition to it does theoretically harm Jewish interests.

Duvniask wrote:Lol, so that makes racism and persecution against Palestinians okay I guess. Two wrongs don't make a right. The Holocaust doesn't make it okay for IDF snipers to murder children in cold blood.

Zionism does not necessitate the persecution of Palestinians. You can be a Zionist and criticize Israel. You can be a Zionist and support a two-state solution. You can be a Zionist and support human rights. That's why I specified that the hypothetical person was a committed anti-Zionist in my previous comment.

Duvniask wrote:Jews for Hitler weren't race traitors then, I guess.

A lot of the Jewish people who wound up "working" for or "collaborating" with the Nazis didn't do so of their own volition. In a lot of cases, they were enslaved persons or were seeking to minimize the death toll within the Jewish community. You're free to discuss the efficacy of those decisions - and I'd probably agree with a lot of your arguments - but you don't get to call them self-hating Jews, especially not when most of them weren't self-hating Jews but desperate people trying to save themselves or their communities. And, again, Candace Owens is more equivalent to an Anti-Zionist Jewish person than an Antisemitic Jewish person from what I've read.

Duvniask wrote:No.

Inb4 Duvniask gets cancelled by Black Twitter in five years.

Duvniask wrote:I have plenty of opinions for which I can already catch heat. That fact in itself doesn't concern me.

Fair enough, but I do hope you can appreciate how those attitudes might be perceived as racist or obtrusive.

Duvniask wrote:How dare the Whitey think a Jewish person can be wrong about something.

It's not that you have an opinion about black or Jewish people. It's that you think their opinions makes them traitors to their commmunity when it isn't your place to regulate their community as an outsider, especially not when you're a privileged outsider from a group that has historically been oppressive.

Duvniask wrote:Listen, don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. If you're gonna defend an oppressive ethno-state that routinely terrorizes and murders Palestinian civilians, I'm not going to be convinced you care the least about racism. Israel is an Apartheid state engaged in illegal occupation and colonization of Palestinian land. Anti-semitism should never be used to justify new avenues of oppression.

Nonsense. I do not support the bad policies. I support the existence of a Jewish state. Those are distinct positions.

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60892
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:02 pm

LRON wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Deplatform gang unity against authoritarians and rightists

Does it not make you authoritarian to "deplatform" right wing persons?

Not necessarily. It would certainly be described authoritarian if it happened to be a decision made from an unaccountable, undemocratic authority. But if it were a collective, democratically made decision, the product of a popular consensus...
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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