LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

[Genivaria]

And to make sure there's not any confusion on being denied government benefits, make it so you're evaluated in your last year of high school and if you're found to be medically unfit (or some other valid reason) then you won't be penalized.
That way you're not punishing people for failing to show up when they don't own a car or some other reason.

[Cisairse]

Where I live property taxes are basically nothing more than filling out a form; I often forget that other jurisdictions have serious property taxes.

In any case, I would argue that all taxes are opt-in. You don't pay property taxes if you don't own property. You don't pay sales taxes if you don't buy things. You don't pay capital gains taxes if you don't trade stocks. Etc.



I find the idea of having conscription be a requirement to engage in government-sponsored programs mostly agreeable, assuming that you can choose economic conscription rather than military service.

Well I am not sure what exactly you mean by economic conscription but I do agree an alternative civilian service should be available for those not best motivated or suited for military service.

By economic conscription I mean serving your term of conscription via public works projects or state-administered employment in underemployed sectors. Or just the public sector in general.

[Cisairse]

And to make sure there's not any confusion on being denied government benefits, make it so you're evaluated in your last year of high school and if you're found to be medically unfit (or some other valid reason) then you won't be penalized.
That way you're not punishing people for failing to show up when they don't own a car or some other reason.

What if you don't attend high school, as many people do not?

[Genivaria]

And to make sure there's not any confusion on being denied government benefits, make it so you're evaluated in your last year of high school and if you're found to be medically unfit (or some other valid reason) then you won't be penalized.
That way you're not punishing people for failing to show up when they don't own a car or some other reason.

What if you don't attend high school, as many people do not?

You're talking about home-schoolers? They make up about %3.4 of the population so if you have a suggestion to address that I'm all ears, otherwise...*shrug* no policy is perfect.

[Cisairse]

What if you don't attend high school, as many people do not?

You're talking about home-schoolers? They make up about %3.4 of the population so if you have a suggestion to address that I'm all ears, otherwise...*shrug* no policy is perfect.

Home-schoolers or dropouts. Plenty of people who should have graduated with me back in HS dropped out at the end of junior year and got their GEDs.

[Genivaria]

You're talking about home-schoolers? They make up about %3.4 of the population so if you have a suggestion to address that I'm all ears, otherwise...*shrug* no policy is perfect.

Home-schoolers or dropouts. Plenty of people who should have graduated with me back in HS dropped out at the end of junior year and got their GEDs.

Dropouts have the choice of seeking out the evaluation during school or seeking it out later.
If they do neither then they are considered to have avoided it intentionally.

[Cisairse]

Home-schoolers or dropouts. Plenty of people who should have graduated with me back in HS dropped out at the end of junior year and got their GEDs.

Dropouts have the choice of seeking out the evaluation during school or seeking it out later.
If they do neither then they are considered to have avoided it intentionally.

Seems kinda strange to require someone to actively seek out something that for everyone else seeks them out. How do you address the issues you mentioned earlier, about people who don't have a car or for whatever other reason can't (or don't know they should) seek out the evaluation?

[Duvniask]

Conscription has literally nothing to do with it.

"government should pay for my Starbucks", Jesus Christ, this is like some Fox News, Boomer type shit.

No, conscription does have a lot to do with it. I am not against social democracy, just the Sanders/DSA misunderstanding of it. Social democracy is a much more than just more welfare, it is a social contract, nothing is “free”. Society has an obligation to you, but you have obligations to society (such as fighting to defend it). Thus saying free healthcare and free college shows a complete misunderstanding of it.

You're an ignorant American who should stop thinking he understands the Nordics. 99.1% of Danish recruits in 2014 were volunteers, only 19 persons (!) were not volunteers. Excuse me for not believing your bullshit that conscription actually matters in terms of fostering the level of social cohesion seen in Nordic countries (as is usually measured by levels of social trust; trust in institutions and in other citizens). Studies of the subject generally attribute it to equality, long-standing democratic-participation norms, the universality of the welfare state, etc. The draft is a complete afterthought, and Sweden re-instituted it (after a period of deactivation from 2010-2017), because there was a lack of soldiers deemed necessary for defense, not because there was a collapse in social cohesion or something like that.

[Genivaria]

Dropouts have the choice of seeking out the evaluation during school or seeking it out later.
If they do neither then they are considered to have avoided it intentionally.

Seems kinda strange to require someone to actively seek out something that for everyone else seeks them out. How do you address the issues you mentioned earlier, about people who don't have a car or for whatever other reason can't (or don't know they should) seek out the evaluation?

Considering that the 'seeking out' in this case would likely involve something as simple as walking to an office in the school; I don't see it as a burden.

[Duvniask]

Conscription should only exist during wartime, or as deterrence against hostile neighbors (i.e. as in South Korea). I fail to see how my "responsibility" to be in boot camp would be worthwhile outside of that.

If you want citizens to give something back as a "responsibility" to their rights, well, first of all there's taxation; second, there are a myriad of ways to do it aside from military conscription.

Exactly why is conscription not acceptable to you?

As Cisairse says: conscription is antithetical to personal liberty.

It is also pointless. The social cohesion you guys expect from welfare states doesn't derive from the fucking draft. Jesus.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Conscription is a necessary power of any state.

[Genivaria]

Exactly why is conscription not acceptable to you?

As Cisairse says: conscription is antithetical to personal liberty.

It is also pointless. The social cohesion you guys expect from welfare states doesn't derive from the fucking draft. Jesus.

So is countering the 'social cohesion' thing your only argument?

[United Muscovite Nations]

As Cisairse says: conscription is antithetical to personal liberty.

It is also pointless. The social cohesion you guys expect from welfare states doesn't derive from the fucking draft. Jesus.

So is countering the 'social cohesion' thing your only argument?

Conscription should only exist in times of war.

[Duvniask]

As Cisairse says: conscription is antithetical to personal liberty.

It is also pointless. The social cohesion you guys expect from welfare states doesn't derive from the fucking draft. Jesus.

So is countering the 'social cohesion' thing your only argument?

Oh I don't think you understand how this works. You're making the positive case for its continued existence, so you go ahead and give your reasons.

What exactly is your argument for forcing people to perform military training if the nation is not at risk of war? If you cannot show that it is necessary, then you have nothing to argue with.

[Cisairse]

Seems kinda strange to require someone to actively seek out something that for everyone else seeks them out. How do you address the issues you mentioned earlier, about people who don't have a car or for whatever other reason can't (or don't know they should) seek out the evaluation?

Considering that the 'seeking out' in this case would likely involve something as simple as walking to an office in the school; I don't see it as a burden.

I think you're underestimating just how far some people are from their closest public school.

[Genivaria]

So is countering the 'social cohesion' thing your only argument?

Oh I don't think you understand how this works. You're making the positive case for its continued existence, so you go ahead and give your reasons.

What exactly is your argument for forcing people to perform military training if the nation is not at risk of war? If you cannot show that it is necessary, then you have nothing to argue with.

Cute. The fact is the only thing you were responding to was the 'cohesion' argument which I didn't really make, at least not here.
Thus why I asked.
1. The military would have no problem at all meeting their quotas for jobs they need. If anything they could afford to greatly raise their standards now that they have such a wide net to choose from.
2. If coupled with requiring a national referendum to declare war (which I think is absolutely necessary) then you'll start to see more Americans actually be invested into their nations foriegn policy and American war ventures will drastically go down.
3. It would heavily reduce unemployment and create a large manpower pool to help tackle our nations abysmal infrastructure.

There are other arguments I've made in the past I think, but I can't recall them atm, currently looking through old posts.

[Genivaria]

The argument about the population being more invested in a nations foreign policy with conscription is also supported by the fact that Richard Nixon openly stated that abolishing the draft would gut the anti-war movement.
The thing they were protesting against didn't end, it just stopped forcing people most people to care.

[Cisairse]

The argument about the population being more invested in a nations foreign policy with conscription is also supported by the fact that Richard Nixon openly stated that abolishing the draft would gut the anti-war movement.
The thing they were protesting against didn't end, it just stopped forcing people most people to care.

Although, the main reason for this is that a lot of the anti-war movement was due to people's families etc getting killed in a war they opposed. A lot of anti-war protesters didn't really oppose intervention in Vietnam in general, but specifically opposed themselves and their loved ones being forced by the government to die.

[Nakena]

Conscripts should not be deployed in expeditions and interventions unless its full scale war.

[Genivaria]

The argument about the population being more invested in a nations foreign policy with conscription is also supported by the fact that Richard Nixon openly stated that abolishing the draft would gut the anti-war movement.
The thing they were protesting against didn't end, it just stopped forcing people most people to care.

Although, the main reason for this is that a lot of the anti-war movement was due to people's families etc getting killed in a war they opposed. A lot of anti-war protesters didn't really oppose intervention in Vietnam in general, but specifically opposed themselves and their loved ones being forced by the government to die.

I think that mindset is problematic honestly, it basically says "Yeah I support the war as long as it's other people dying for it." Which I feel like we have now.

[Genivaria]

Conscripts should not be deployed in expeditions and interventions unless its full scale war.

Agree completely.

[Cisairse]

Although, the main reason for this is that a lot of the anti-war movement was due to people's families etc getting killed in a war they opposed. A lot of anti-war protesters didn't really oppose intervention in Vietnam in general, but specifically opposed themselves and their loved ones being forced by the government to die.

I think that mindset is problematic honestly, it basically says "Yeah I support the war as long as it's other people dying for it." Which I feel like we have now.

On the flipside, it may be more "I oppose the war but I don't really care as long as I'm not dying for it."

[Mirjt]

Conscription should only exist during wartime, or as deterrence against hostile neighbors (i.e. as in South Korea). I fail to see how my "responsibility" to be in boot camp would be worthwhile outside of that.

If you want citizens to give something back as a "responsibility" to their rights, well, first of all there's taxation; second, there are a myriad of ways to do it aside from military conscription.

Exactly why is conscription not acceptable to you?

Because it is unacceptable to demand people fight, injure, kill, traumatize, destroy, and risk all the above happening to themselves as well, all for the sake of the state. It is unacceptable to pit the working class (or really any members of humanity) in one area of the world against themselves in another area of the world.

[Genivaria]

Exactly why is conscription not acceptable to you?

Because it is unacceptable to demand people fight, injure, kill, traumatize, destroy, and risk all the above happening to themselves as well, all for the sake of the state. It is unacceptable to pit the working class (or really any members of humanity) in one area of the world against themselves in another area of the world.

So then you're specifically talking about wars of aggression.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Because it is unacceptable to demand people fight, injure, kill, traumatize, destroy, and risk all the above happening to themselves as well, all for the sake of the state. It is unacceptable to pit the working class (or really any members of humanity) in one area of the world against themselves in another area of the world.

So then you're specifically talking about wars of aggression.

The same could apply to wars of defense.