LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

[Shanghai industrial complex]

I think we call that "economic stagnation"...

I really don't see why stagnation is a bad thing.

Beacause stagnation means ：Your future will not be better than now，your child won't be better than you.After adjusting for inflation and other factors, in fact, most people may be getting worse and worse of their life.

[Cisairse]

I really don't see why stagnation is a bad thing.

Beacause stagnation means ：Your future will not be better than now，your child won't be better than you.After adjusting for inflation and other factors, in fact, most people may be getting worse and worse of their life.

Perpetual growth is a delusion. Maintaining a good quality of living is much better than boom-bust cycles that leave people in destitution.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Beacause stagnation means ：Your future will not be better than now，your child won't be better than you.After adjusting for inflation and other factors, in fact, most people may be getting worse and worse of their life.

Perpetual growth is a delusion. Maintaining a good quality of living is much better than boom-bust cycles that leave people in destitution.

So how are you going to ensure people's quality of life when the economy goes down?Ever since entering the industrial age, because of the continuous development of science and technology, permanent economic growth has actually become possible.

[Cisairse]

Perpetual growth is a delusion. Maintaining a good quality of living is much better than boom-bust cycles that leave people in destitution.

So how are you going to ensure people's quality of life when the economy goes down?

By not tying life needs to the state of the economy.

Ever since entering the industrial age, because of the continuous development of science and technology, permanent economic growth has actually become possible.

And yet, it has not happened.

[Northern Davincia]

So how are you going to ensure people's quality of life when the economy goes down?

By not tying life needs to the state of the economy.

Good luck with that.

[Cisairse]

By not tying life needs to the state of the economy.

Good luck with that.

Thank you.

Luckily it's quite easy with modern industrialized production methods. Once monetary concerns are not an issue, the only real threats to quality-of-life are natural disasters (including blights), and foreign invasion.

[Duvniask]

So how are you going to ensure people's quality of life when the economy goes down?

By not tying life needs to the state of the economy.

What do you even mean by that? "The economy" is precisely the system of production and resource distribution. If the state of the economy is dire, it necessarily means scarce resources will be wasted or ineffectively allocated. There might be enough food in the world to satisfy everyone's hunger, but that does not make food ever-abundant, for example.

[Cisairse]

By not tying life needs to the state of the economy.

What do you even mean by that? "The economy" is precisely the system of production and resource distribution. If the state of the economy is dire, it necessarily means scarce resources will be wasted or ineffectively allocated. There might be enough food in the world to satisfy everyone's hunger, but that does not make food ever-abundant, for example.

Sure, but a sudden drop in demand for automobiles shouldn't cause people to starve when food is still abundant.

[Duvniask]

What do you even mean by that? "The economy" is precisely the system of production and resource distribution. If the state of the economy is dire, it necessarily means scarce resources will be wasted or ineffectively allocated. There might be enough food in the world to satisfy everyone's hunger, but that does not make food ever-abundant, for example.

Sure, but a sudden drop in demand for automobiles shouldn't cause people to starve when food is still abundant.

At risk of being pedantic, maybe you mean to say "life needs" should not be tied to economic conjunctures, or the business cycle as it is more commonly known. Of course, doing away with "business" in general will help this state of affairs speedily along.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Ever since entering the industrial age, because of the continuous development of science and technology, permanent economic growth has actually become possible.

And yet, it has not happened.

Since the invention of the steam engine, the world economy has been growing.Only interrupted in World War

Sure, but a sudden drop in demand for automobiles shouldn't cause people to starve when food is still abundant.

As a product with a long supply chain, automobile has a good representativeness.The decrease of automobile production will cause the decrease of business volume of related supporting factories and affect the income of many workers.At the same time, the decrease of automobile demand also represents the depression of logistics industry, and the weakness of oil market can be predicted.All in all, a sudden drop in car production could indeed lead to the collapse of the food market and starvation of the poor.Everything in the market is affecting each other.The market reflects the distribution and supply of goods.You can't really deliver food to people just by only thinking about production. Maybe they're waiting to rot in some warehouse,or on a ship in the distant sea.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Sure, but a sudden drop in demand for automobiles shouldn't cause people to starve when food is still abundant.

At risk of being pedantic, maybe you mean to say "life needs" should not be tied to economic conjunctures, or the business cycle as it is more commonly known. Of course, doing away with "business" in general will help this state of affairs speedily along.

There's a way to meet his needs---Wartime economic rationing

[Mirjt]

All economic growth stops eventually, there is no system in which there are finite resources that can grow forever. This 8-9 minute video helps demonstrate that point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTq8xOuvxzQ . I know that sounds malthusian, but I am not advocating some malthusian ethic as malthusians believe that scarcity is a frequent problem and that the only solution is to limit the population, while I believe that while growth cannot continue forever, I also think that the economy has already grown enough to support all of the human population and that it is a near impossibility for the human population to get so large in the first place that we strain the resources of the Universe. However I do think we are straining the resources of Earth (due to overconsumption, not overpopulation) and should consume less and rely on circular systems (a circular economy) just like you see in wild ecosystems. I hope one day we will be in a truly post-scarcity economy, and I think we already have some aspects of potential post-scarcity already.

[Duvniask]

At risk of being pedantic, maybe you mean to say "life needs" should not be tied to economic conjunctures, or the business cycle as it is more commonly known. Of course, doing away with "business" in general will help this state of affairs speedily along.

There's a way to meet his needs---Wartime economic rationing

Or a system not focused on endless accumulation of wealth and mindless consumerism, a system not dictated by the value-form.

[Italios]

hello my beautiful queer, disabled, POC anarchocommunist folx, i'm writing a piece on how unionizing is one of the most underappreciated forms of leftist activism, especially in the US, and would appreciate any thoughts on the subject. maybe some articles of anti-unionizing efforts done by your local government or workplace.

[Mirjt]

hello my beautiful queer, disabled, POC anarchocommunist folx, i'm writing a piece on how unionizing is one of the most underappreciated forms of leftist activism, especially in the US, and would appreciate any thoughts on the subject. maybe some articles of anti-unionizing efforts done by your local government or workplace.

Hello, (is it okay if I am a heteroflexible, greyromantic, with unclear gender - I am either non-conforming cisgender, or non-binary presenting mostly masculine -, disabled, white, leftist who sympathizes and supports anarchocommunism without actually being an anarcho-communist)

If you are looking for some history to go in your article I suggest research into Eugene V. Debs who was a co-founder of the IWW.

P.S. I don't know why leftist organizations like the DSA, IWW, and so on have not already published and advertised 10 different apps to help people organize, unionize, and strike.

[Italios]

hello my beautiful queer, disabled, POC anarchocommunist folx, i'm writing a piece on how unionizing is one of the most underappreciated forms of leftist activism, especially in the US, and would appreciate any thoughts on the subject. maybe some articles of anti-unionizing efforts done by your local government or workplace.

Hello, (is it okay if I am a heteroflexible, greyromantic, with unclear gender - I am either non-conforming cisgender, or non-binary presenting mostly masculine -, disabled, white, leftist who sympathizes and supports anarchocommunism without actually being an anarcho-communist)

its a joke bud

If you are looking for some history to go in your article I suggest research into Eugene V. Debs who was a co-founder of the IWW.

well if i had more preparation time i would definitely be interested in putting out an expository on the history of American labor but we're trying to put this out fast to provide salient commentary in regards to the rioting that's been happening. the gist of the piece is that a plurality of american workers, public and private, belonged to a union and were continually expecting ever-increasing real wages. whereas nowadays union membership has significantly declined and real wages have stagnated while living standards continue to rise.

it's also a commentary on how the current liberal-conservative paradigm offers no recourse for workers, because they both target unionizing efforts, whether implicitly or explicitly. corporations have also taken stringent measures against unionizing, both off-line and online.

P.S. I don't know why leftist organizations like the DSA, IWW, and so on have not already published and advertised 10 different apps to help people organize, unionize, and strike.

that's actually a decent idea, I'll definitely be sure to bring that up. although IWW has kind of wasted away unfortunately, and DSA has its priorities entirely out of whack.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

that's actually a decent idea, I'll definitely be sure to bring that up. although IWW has kind of wasted away unfortunately, and DSA has its priorities entirely out of whack.

I wouldn't say that. They're trying to attract furries and porn artists to the one big union.

[Italios]

that's actually a decent idea, I'll definitely be sure to bring that up. although IWW has kind of wasted away unfortunately, and DSA has its priorities entirely out of whack.

I wouldn't say that. They're trying to attract furries and porn artists to the one big union.

well if you're so invested in the IWW furry crossover, why don't you just join then?

[Jack Thomas Lang]

well if you're so invested in the IWW furry crossover, why don't you just join then?

The IWW is American.

[Northern Davincia]

that's actually a decent idea, I'll definitely be sure to bring that up. although IWW has kind of wasted away unfortunately, and DSA has its priorities entirely out of whack.

I wouldn't say that. They're trying to attract furries and porn artists to the one big union.

It's never been so easy for me to hate unions.

[Cisairse]

Hello, (is it okay if I am a heteroflexible, greyromantic, with unclear gender - I am either non-conforming cisgender, or non-binary presenting mostly masculine -, disabled, white, leftist who sympathizes and supports anarchocommunism without actually being an anarcho-communist)

its a joke bud

If you are looking for some history to go in your article I suggest research into Eugene V. Debs who was a co-founder of the IWW.

well if i had more preparation time i would definitely be interested in putting out an expository on the history of American labor but we're trying to put this out fast to provide salient commentary in regards to the rioting that's been happening. the gist of the piece is that a plurality of american workers, public and private, belonged to a union and were continually expecting ever-increasing real wages. whereas nowadays union membership has significantly declined and real wages have stagnated while living standards continue to rise.

it's also a commentary on how the current liberal-conservative paradigm offers no recourse for workers, because they both target unionizing efforts, whether implicitly or explicitly. corporations have also taken stringent measures against unionizing, both off-line and online.

P.S. I don't know why leftist organizations like the DSA, IWW, and so on have not already published and advertised 10 different apps to help people organize, unionize, and strike.

that's actually a decent idea, I'll definitely be sure to bring that up. although IWW has kind of wasted away unfortunately, and DSA has its priorities entirely out of whack.

The IWW is by far the most dedicated group of comically out-of-touch leftists I have ever seen.

[Novus America]

The DSA largely just wants more welfare handouts anyways. Many DSA are often more “the government should pay my tuition even if I just get smashed and do not even show up to class, government should pay for my Starbucks to help with my hang” over actual “revolution” or even socialism.

The DSA is largely just want a Nordic style welfare state, MINUS the social obligations it requires to work (tell the many DSA Sweden has conscription and their mind would be utterly blown).

[Fahran]

The DSA is largely just want a Nordic style welfare state, MINUS the social obligations it requires to work (tell the many DSA Sweden has conscription and their mind would be utterly blown).

I'm willing to support social democracy if military conscription, national service, higher income tax rates, and other civic and communal responsibilities are imposed when and where appropriate to foster a sense of duty and community - to all associated communities.

[Cisairse]

Speaking of the DSA, they're finally moving forward with their plan to convert themselves from a campaign apparatus to a ground-up labor organizing nexus.

Jacobin: Something Is Stirring in the Labor Movement

If their model of organizing becomes successful, I can imagine real consequences. The DSA is uniquely positioned as both an explicitly political organization that provides manpower and funding for their chosen political candidates and, now, an explicitly grassroots labor organization that actively seeks out unorganized individual workers and assists them in escalating union activity.

I, personally, feel this is very exciting. A few weeks ago I posted a long bit about how I felt the DSA had completely lost direction, and how many DSA members that I know personally only cared about Bernie Sanders and had no interest in the sort of in-the-trenches work that I believe is completely necessary for any sort of success. It warms my heart to see that a lot of them are taking the idea seriously now, and actually getting real results for people who will later become organizers themselves, or at least voters.

[Duvniask]

The DSA largely just wants more welfare handouts anyways. Many DSA are often more “the government should pay my tuition even if I just get smashed and do not even show up to class, government should pay for my Starbucks to help with my hang” over actual “revolution” or even socialism.

The DSA is largely just want a Nordic style welfare state, MINUS the social obligations it requires to work (tell the many DSA Sweden has conscription and their mind would be utterly blown).

Conscription has literally nothing to do with it.

"government should pay for my Starbucks", Jesus Christ, this is like some Fox News, Boomer type shit.