LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

[Kowani]

Based on what criterion?

Based on the criterion of being way less conservative, oppressing people way less and being decentralised.

I don’t think less conservative is really a useful one-they might not be conservative by our standards, but that’s ‘cause the moral standards have changed radically since then.

Based on what criterion?

Does getting drunk in the woods (and possibly dismembered and cannibalized) by the followers of Dionysus not sound like a good time to you?!

It was not on my bucket list, no.

[Cekoviu]

Based on what criterion?

Based on the criterion of being way less conservative, oppressing people way less and being decentralised.

why are being less conservative & increasing decentralization good things

[Antibuda]

Does getting drunk in the woods (and possibly dismembered and cannibalized) by the followers of Dionysus not sound like a good time to you?!

It was not on my bucket list, no.

Yeah, It doesn't sound like a great fun time. Have a few better things to do that, you know, being dismembered.

[Fahran]

As you are a Jew you should know i blaim your religion for spawning Jesus. Not in a racist way more of the why the fuck did you go and spawn that dickwad way.

We don't know how that happened either.

Our hedonistic gods were way better than the shitty religions of today i could abide with their bullshit at least.

People tend to overestimate the extent to which pagan religions were hedonistic and what precisely that meant. In many cases, you had quite a few obligations and responsibilities, both religiously and socially. Plus a lot of that hedonism, beyond a couple mystery cults and that time the alcoholic Macedonians decided they liked Dionysus, was negative hedonism.

[Valrifell]

It was not on my bucket list, no.

Yeah, It doesn't sound like a great fun time. Have a few better things to do that, you know, being dismembered.

Don't be a coward, it's only a possibility.

[Fahran]

It seems way more fun than the shit religions peddle today.

It's all fun and games until an Athenian orator gives a long-winded speech about all the horrible things Dionysus will do to your dong if you don't worship said deity of wine, madness, and death. I say dongs because my people didn't hear it and also couldn't vote.

[Fahran]

Don't be a coward, it's only a possibility.

They'll probably dismember bulls instead. Also, I'm still sad about Orpheus.

[Kowani]

Based on the criterion of being way less conservative, oppressing people way less and being decentralised.

why are being less conservative & increasing decentralization good things

Eh, decreasing conservatism is, decentralization is circumstantial. Though I don’t really think comparing the societal obligations of the ancient world and the Christian one is really a functional idea...

It was not on my bucket list, no.

Yeah, It doesn't sound like a great fun time. Have a few better things to do that, you know, being dismembered.

It’s the sort of thing that would get you a 1-star review on Yelp.

[Valrifell]

As you are a Jew you should know i blaim your religion for spawning Jesus. Not in a racist way more of the why the fuck did you go and spawn that dickwad way.

We don't know how that happened either.

Our hedonistic gods were way better than the shitty religions of today i could abide with their bullshit at least.

People tend to overestimate the extent to which pagan religions were hedonistic and what precisely that meant. In many cases, you had quite a few obligations and responsibilities, both religiously and socially. Plus a lot of that hedonism, beyond a couple mystery cults and that time the alcoholic Macedonians decided they liked Dionysus, was negative hedonism.

It's not that there's something inherent in monotheism that makes them less fun. The Orphics were ascetic and vegetarians, ffs, that's the opposite of fun.

[Cekoviu]

why are being less conservative & increasing decentralization good things

Eh, decreasing conservatism is, decentralization is circumstantial. Though I don’t really think comparing the societal obligations of the ancient world and the Christian one is really a functional idea...

okay, but why?

[Fahran]

It's not that there's something inherent in monotheism that makes them less fun. The Orphics were ascetic and vegetarians, ffs, that's the opposite of fun.

Aesthetics?

[Asherahan]

Yeah, It doesn't sound like a great fun time. Have a few better things to do that, you know, being dismembered.

Don't be a coward, it's only a possibility.

In all seriousness your not gonna be dismembered and cannibalised.

You are gonna be murdered in the woods though if you stalk and watch the mysteries of various cults that you shouldn't be privy to.

[Kowani]

Eh, decreasing conservatism is, decentralization is circumstantial. Though I don’t really think comparing the societal obligations of the ancient world and the Christian one is really a functional idea...

okay, but why?

Besides the fact that conservatism is inherently doomed to fail?

[Valrifell]

Eh, decreasing conservatism is, decentralization is circumstantial. Though I don’t really think comparing the societal obligations of the ancient world and the Christian one is really a functional idea...

okay, but why?

Being held too rigidly in conservatism betrays an unwillingness to critically analyze how the society functions and doesn't open up opportunities to improve or fix it should problems arise. That is not to say that all tradition is bad, of course, as the precise opposite can lead to increasing isolation and skipping over some things that worked, actually.

Conservatism is the ideology that doesn't tend to like analysis of the past, so a reduction of its influence tends to be beneficial.

[Antibuda]

It's not that there's something inherent in monotheism that makes them less fun. The Orphics were ascetic and vegetarians, ffs, that's the opposite of fun.

Aesthetics?

No, just avoiding all sensual pleasure.

[Asherahan]

Well to begin with the only religion i wouod ever participate in is the one that i made.

No don't search my stupid fake religion people have to told me it has a bit too much strange stuff in it.

[No State Here]

In that scenario, I’ll probably be the first one to be thrown into the gulag

Please, there are higher order targets to give a People's Trial, like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos.

You'll probably be scheduled for the 23rd round of purges

Communists can’t be accused of starving people when there are no people left eh?

[Antibuda]

Saw this gem in a "Weird but True" book a while ago:

One store sells a pair of jeans covered in fake mud for $425.

Capitalism in a nutshell.

[South Reinkalistan]

Saw this gem in a "Weird but True" book a while ago:

One store sells a pair of jeans covered in fake mud for $425.

Capitalism in a nutshell.

Needless commodities for needlessly high prices, probably produced by people being paid a fraction of that value.

Yup.

[Antibuda]

Saw this gem in a "Weird but True" book a while ago:

Capitalism in a nutshell.

Needless commodities for needlessly high prices, probably produced by people being paid a fraction of that value.

Yup.

And selling items that are easily available for free or for much less. Like, mud your jeans yourself.

[Northern Davincia]

Saw this gem in a "Weird but True" book a while ago:

Capitalism in a nutshell.

Needless commodities for needlessly high prices, probably produced by people being paid a fraction of that value.

Yup.

Luckily value is not inherent to any product.

[No State Here]

Needless commodities for needlessly high prices, probably produced by people being paid a fraction of that value.

Yup.

Luckily value is not inherent to any product.

And employment is a contract both parties have agreed to, so "fruits of labor" Marxist logic falls apart

[South Reinkalistan]

Luckily value is not inherent to any product.

And employment is a contract both parties have agreed to, so "fruits of labor" Marxist logic falls apart

But surely, in many cases, the employer has substantially greater bargaining power than the employee?

[Kowani]

Luckily value is not inherent to any product.

And employment is a contract both parties have agreed to, so "fruits of labor" Marxist logic falls apart

“Work or starve” is not really a coercion free choice.

[Northern Davincia]

And employment is a contract both parties have agreed to, so "fruits of labor" Marxist logic falls apart

But surely, in many cases, the employer has substantially greater bargaining power than the employee?

Perhaps, but that does not validate the labor value theory.

And employment is a contract both parties have agreed to, so "fruits of labor" Marxist logic falls apart

“Work or starve” is not really a coercion free choice.

No one is entitled to things they have not worked for, provided they have the ability to.