LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

[Valrifell]

Do you think recent events (as horrible as many of them are) will result in a surge of leftism and lead to movements and cultural attitudes that help the left? or do you think that it will end up hurting leftist causes?

In the short-term, I believe this will energize leftists who will then be herded into the DNC. They'll then propose such absurd ideas that they're once more relegated to the obscure corners of the political spectrum beyond the Overton Window where they rightly belong and have rightly belonged since the 1970s.

Wishful thinking, we'll come to power and successfully transition the country away from capitalism and also implement all the things you don't like.

[Cisairse]

In the short-term, I believe this will energize leftists who will then be herded into the DNC. They'll then propose such absurd ideas that they're once more relegated to the obscure corners of the political spectrum beyond the Overton Window where they rightly belong and have rightly belonged since the 1970s.

Wishful thinking, we'll come to power and successfully transition the country away from capitalism and also implement all the things you don't like.

Boo-yah!

[Fahran]

Wishful thinking, we'll come to power and successfully transition the country away from capitalism and also implement all the things you don't like.

Depends on the country, really. I don't think they have much of a shot of securing any long-term gains in the UK given that the Tories have successfully captured the center and have swayed the North to their side for the time being. Maybe if Labour bails on neoliberalism they might recapture that key demographic in the North. In the US, the hard left has been repeatedly sidelined by the DNC establishment, mostly because they can't help but propose really cooky and, at times, prejudicial ideas and policies.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Do you think recent events (as horrible as many of them are) will result in a surge of leftism and lead to movements and cultural attitudes that help the left? or do you think that it will end up hurting leftist causes?

In the short-term, I believe this will energize leftists who will then be herded into the DNC. They'll then propose such absurd ideas that they're once more relegated to the obscure corners of the political spectrum beyond the Overton Window where they rightly belong and have rightly belonged since the 1970s.

Conservative hogwash.

[Fahran]

Conservative hogwash.

Labour lost to Boris Johnson of all people - while losing traditional Labour bastions. I don't really know how you can interpret that as going in the right direction for Labour. They need to sort out their policy on Brexit or find some other way to appease voters in the North.

As for the US, Joe Biden and the DNC establishment managed to shove Bernie Sanders into the background yet again while Nancy Pelosi has pretty much won her sparring matches with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and the hardliners in the party. And these are the people who managed to lose to Trump in 2016 and stand some chance of doing so again. The one advantage they have is that Biden can probably capitalize on his support in the black community by promising reforms.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Conservative hogwash.

Labour lost to Boris Johnson of all people - while losing traditional Labour bastions. I don't really know how you can interpret that as going in the right direction for Labour. They need to sort out their policy on Brexit or find some other way to appease voters in the North.

What does this have to do with your point?

[Fahran]

What does this have to do with your point?

My point is that the hard left will sabotage itself yet again because it lacks institutional power beyond the universities and generally compensates for that by diving head first into silly policy suggestions that manage to alienate much of the population while the sentiments that gave them a temporary boost get corraled towards more worthwhile political positions.

[Valrifell]

Wishful thinking, we'll come to power and successfully transition the country away from capitalism and also implement all the things you don't like.

Depends on the country, really. I don't think they have much of a shot of securing any long-term gains in the UK given that the Tories have successfully captured the center and have swayed the North to their side for the time being. Maybe if Labour bails on neoliberalism they might recapture that key demographic in the North. In the US, the hard left has been repeatedly sidelined by the DNC establishment, mostly because they can't help but propose really cooky and, at times, prejudicial ideas and policies.

I'm no expert on UK electoral politics so I won't touch that, though I do think you're overlooking the growing influence of the progressive-left on (several) massively important Democratic voting blocs. It's getting to the point that the Democrats have to sideline them at their own peril, which is why they were so heavily involved in crafting the platforms of 2016 and 2020.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

What does this have to do with your point?

My point is that the hard left will sabotage itself yet again because it lacks institutional power beyond the universities and generally compensates for that by diving head first into silly policy suggestions that manage to alienate much of the population while the sentiments that gave them a temporary boost get corraled towards more worthwhile political positions.

How can any geoup sabotage themselves by not having power? Do you think institutional power grows on trees and is there to be plucked by anyone who wants?

The idea that universities are somehow far left institutions is laughable.

[Fahran]

How can any geoup sabotage themselves by not having power? Do you think institutional power grows on trees and is there to be plucked by anyone who wants?

I think you can amass institutional power by implementing reforms and paradigms that aren't largely anti-institutional at their heart and putting together a platform that actually has practical advantages to the majority of the political community - which means watering down your abstractions a little bit.

The idea that universities are somehow far left institutions is laughable.

Universities are left-wing institutions on the whole, mostly quite by accident.

[Fahran]

I'm no expert on UK electoral politics so I won't touch that, though I do think you're overlooking the growing influence of the progressive-left on (several) massively important Democratic voting blocs. It's getting to the point that the Democrats have to sideline them at their own peril, which is why they were so heavily involved in crafting the platforms of 2016 and 2020.

Perhaps but I cannot imagine them gaining proper primacy or even the majority of the policies they've pitched on a federal level, especially because a lot of the issues that are presently driving their support are localized. Beyond that, I expect both parties to moderate at some point - since we're currently pretty polarized by most metrics.

[Lucja]

Historical revisionists such as Nazis and Marxist-Leninists should absolutely be jailed for propagating lies when the Holocaust and Katyn Massacre are objectively proven.

Being wrong isn’t a crime, nor is denying facts or spreading lies. At least not in much of the West, as far as I’m aware.

Denial of war crimes, especially Nazi and Soviet atrocities, is in fact illegal in much of Europe, especially in countries which suffered from them. The idea that free speech trumps all is a universal Western idea is an Anglo-American fantasy.

[The East Marches II]

Of course not, just look at our fine poster above. He still lectures us but throw reality at him and watch him flee. They know deep down it's an indefensible position or it would cause too much psychological pain to acknowledge. One can see the pattern writ large with various posters who fled in the aftermath of 2016. Or as I prefer, as shown by the need for Twitter to prevent comments. That's how you know they are worried. They turned the vast majority of the internet into a wall garden overnight. They are very strong indeed.

I don't know if you're referring to Shangai or me.
Duvniask already pointed out an error of Bill Bland, in which he conflated as a general term the people in prison with different statuses of criminalization. I think this is the way of addressing it, now if I kept saying it's false without sources there'd be a problem and I'd turn to be like a nazi Holocaust revisionist. The Holocaust is vastly documented and the concerns of the historical revisionists are addressed, yet they keep doing it. I can't say the same for all of Grover Furr, there are denounces in how he thought Stalin was going to dissolve the state as speculation which aren't in line with his texts but that's a part. And if he's wrong it's ok to address it.

By the way I'm going out soon for other reasons, after explanations and sources there's a limit in which there's no room for reason because the class is at odds and the other side doesn't either want to see it, address it or doesn't mind lying and it's just a waste of time at that point.

I was referring to the Dutchman who will lecture us all on being very bad while refusing to address that he works for a Narco-state. He can not engage with my post and could not bring himself to read sources. It's the perfect example of the truth being too painful to engage with and thus, must not be engaged with. No doubt were we to give such people the power to censor, such hate facts would be scrubbed from view. It just wouldn't do to point out drug trafficking and human trafficking by a State larping as if international law actually matters. Meanwhile it tries to break Southern Europe financially. Truly paragons of progress!

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

(He’s talking about me! )

He blames me for everything the Netherlands has done because I am Dutch and does not understand why I must go offline sometimes to sleep, eat and work. That’s the extend to which you need to understand his beef with me.

[The East Marches II]

(He’s talking about me! )

He blames me for everything the Netherlands has done because I am Dutch and does not understand why I must go offline sometimes to sleep, eat and work. That’s the extend to which you need to understand his beef with me.

I made that quite clear. I never hide my contempt for your worldview or moral cowardice of your positions. You've had three occasions to address it. You fled each time.

We might call your worldview the same of Mr. Bezos. How they praise him in the media for standing up for black lives matter and purging books fellows like you disagree with. Naught but silence when it comes to his labor records nor a word mentioned about his purchasing of government. It's the modern day form of a Catholic indulgence. This is why Twitter must now silence comments. The truth hurts too much. Thankfully I am still free enough to tell you the truth of the monsterous nature of your positions. God help us if you should be given the power to silence dissent.

Edit: I'll note you no longer contest my comments that the Netherlands is a Narco-state and you still will not address the facts & figures in my previous post. That alone speaks more than my posts after the fact put together. Well done!

[Duvniask]

I don't deny it happened, nazis with the Holocaust do. The question is of who committed it.

There is no question who committed it. Late Soviet scholars, Prosecutor Generals and the new Russian government have consistently attributed the Katyn massacre to the Soviet Union and released documents from state archives showing responsibility for the massacre along with the coverup. The Soviet version of events presented to the Western Allies was full of inconsistencies and suspected of being a coverup from the start. What more incriminating evidence do you need than 6,000 of the victims being buried in Mednoye, which is located 20 kilometers northwest of Tver, in an area far behind the Russian border, which the Germans only ever reached as part of their frontline in the late months of 1941 before being pushed back in the Winter offensive.

You're a dupe for totalitarianism, peddling a sorry propagandist excuse for history.

[Auze]

Depends on the country, really. I don't think they have much of a shot of securing any long-term gains in the UK given that the Tories have successfully captured the center and have swayed the North to their side for the time being. Maybe if Labour bails on neoliberalism they might recapture that key demographic in the North. In the US, the hard left has been repeatedly sidelined by the DNC establishment, mostly because they can't help but propose really cooky and, at times, prejudicial ideas and policies.

I'm no expert on UK electoral politics so I won't touch that, though I do think you're overlooking the growing influence of the progressive-left on (several) massively important Democratic voting blocs. It's getting to the point that the Democrats have to sideline them at their own peril, which is why they were so heavily involved in crafting the platforms of 2016 and 2020.

I don't think it's really growing so much as getting louder. After all, it doesn't seem like any more people voted for the "Progressive" candidates in the democratic nomination than they did for Bernie in 2016 (if anything, even less voted).

[Valrifell]

I'm no expert on UK electoral politics so I won't touch that, though I do think you're overlooking the growing influence of the progressive-left on (several) massively important Democratic voting blocs. It's getting to the point that the Democrats have to sideline them at their own peril, which is why they were so heavily involved in crafting the platforms of 2016 and 2020.

I don't think it's really growing so much as getting louder. After all, it doesn't seem like any more people voted for the "Progressive" candidates in the democratic nomination than they did for Bernie in 2016 (if anything, even less voted).

Nevertheless, increased voter participation and organization (to be loud) isn't exactly the sign of a dying movement. It's the sign of one that's getting better at rallying what support they do have to get concessions.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

(He’s talking about me! )

He blames me for everything the Netherlands has done because I am Dutch and does not understand why I must go offline sometimes to sleep, eat and work. That’s the extend to which you need to understand his beef with me.

I made that quite clear. I never hide my contempt for your worldview or moral cowardice of your positions. You've had three occasions to address it. You fled each time.

We might call your worldview the same of Mr. Bezos. How they praise him in the media for standing up for black lives matter and purging books fellows like you disagree with. Naught but silence when it comes to his labor records nor a word mentioned about his purchasing of government. It's the modern day form of a Catholic indulgence. This is why Twitter must now silence comments. The truth hurts too much. Thankfully I am still free enough to tell you the truth of the monsterous nature of your positions. God help us if you should be given the power to silence dissent.

Edit: I'll note you no longer contest my comments that the Netherlands is a Narco-state and you still will not address the facts & figures in my previous post. That alone speaks more than my posts after the fact put together. Well done!

Your honour, I’d like to admit this post into evidence. I rest my case.

Also, I couldn't pass this over: Dude, I'm a socialist. I absolutely hate Jeff Bezos' guts, especially over his labour violations.

[Kowani]

(He’s talking about me! )

He blames me for everything the Netherlands has done because I am Dutch and does not understand why I must go offline sometimes to sleep, eat and work. That’s the extend to which you need to understand his beef with me.

I made that quite clear. I never hide my contempt for your worldview or moral cowardice of your positions. You've had three occasions to address it. You fled each time.

We might call your worldview the same of Mr. Bezos. How they praise him in the media for standing up for black lives matter and purging books fellows like you disagree with. Naught but silence when it comes to his labor records nor a word mentioned about his purchasing of government. It's the modern day form of a Catholic indulgence. This is why Twitter must now silence comments. The truth hurts too much. Thankfully I am still free enough to tell you the truth of the monsterous nature of your positions. God help us if you should be given the power to silence dissent.

Edit: I'll note you no longer contest my comments that the Netherlands is a Narco-state and you still will not address the facts & figures in my previous post. That alone speaks more than my posts after the fact put together. Well done!

Small correction: Bezos is lambasted in the mass media because Amazon does extremely little curation of its self-published books section. Don't care about the rest of the argument, but I figured this was relevant.

[Valrifell]

I made that quite clear. I never hide my contempt for your worldview or moral cowardice of your positions. You've had three occasions to address it. You fled each time.

We might call your worldview the same of Mr. Bezos. How they praise him in the media for standing up for black lives matter and purging books fellows like you disagree with. Naught but silence when it comes to his labor records nor a word mentioned about his purchasing of government. It's the modern day form of a Catholic indulgence. This is why Twitter must now silence comments. The truth hurts too much. Thankfully I am still free enough to tell you the truth of the monsterous nature of your positions. God help us if you should be given the power to silence dissent.

Edit: I'll note you no longer contest my comments that the Netherlands is a Narco-state and you still will not address the facts & figures in my previous post. That alone speaks more than my posts after the fact put together. Well done!

Small correction: Bezos is lambasted in the mass media because Amazon does extremely little curation of its self-published books section. Don't care about the rest of the argument, but I figured this was relevant.

Curious how Amazon is a bastion of repression and censorship when both Mein Kampf and the entire work of Chuck Tingle can almost trivially be found. You'd think if Bezos was big on left censorship he'd start with the literal Nazi stuff.

Crazy how much historical and seminial works could ever be put on a site with something written by Hitler.

[The East Marches II]

I made that quite clear. I never hide my contempt for your worldview or moral cowardice of your positions. You've had three occasions to address it. You fled each time.

We might call your worldview the same of Mr. Bezos. How they praise him in the media for standing up for black lives matter and purging books fellows like you disagree with. Naught but silence when it comes to his labor records nor a word mentioned about his purchasing of government. It's the modern day form of a Catholic indulgence. This is why Twitter must now silence comments. The truth hurts too much. Thankfully I am still free enough to tell you the truth of the monsterous nature of your positions. God help us if you should be given the power to silence dissent.

Edit: I'll note you no longer contest my comments that the Netherlands is a Narco-state and you still will not address the facts & figures in my previous post. That alone speaks more than my posts after the fact put together. Well done!

Small correction: Bezos is lambasted in the mass media because Amazon does extremely little curation of its self-published books section. Don't care about the rest of the argument, but I figured this was relevant.

As usually, your information is not only old but wrong. He caved. Now if your book is a hate one, it's removed. A great number of books related to Herr Hitler or which were deemed anti-semetic or racist are gone. He receives effusive praise for the crumbs he throws your sort. Afterall, he bribes them with WaPo jobs and being his censorship committee

[The East Marches II]

I made that quite clear. I never hide my contempt for your worldview or moral cowardice of your positions. You've had three occasions to address it. You fled each time.

We might call your worldview the same of Mr. Bezos. How they praise him in the media for standing up for black lives matter and purging books fellows like you disagree with. Naught but silence when it comes to his labor records nor a word mentioned about his purchasing of government. It's the modern day form of a Catholic indulgence. This is why Twitter must now silence comments. The truth hurts too much. Thankfully I am still free enough to tell you the truth of the monsterous nature of your positions. God help us if you should be given the power to silence dissent.

Edit: I'll note you no longer contest my comments that the Netherlands is a Narco-state and you still will not address the facts & figures in my previous post. That alone speaks more than my posts after the fact put together. Well done!

Your honour, I’d like to admit this post into evidence. I rest my case.

Also, I couldn't pass this over: Dude, I'm a socialist. I absolutely hate Jeff Bezos' guts, especially over his labour violations.

You concede my points? This is the 4th time you've fled before the evidence and refused to engage.

Regarding Mr. Bezos, you are no socialist. You are the system. This is why you have to hide. You can't be held accountable for your actions because they are so indefensible. Embrace it, that human trafficking and narco-state system you have on your hands. You actively aid a state that makes it happen. Infact, you aid a state that tries to bankrupt Southern Europe and which views a Greece with 40% unemployment as a success. Some socialist we have here! You just abandoned your old label when people started to hold you to account for it. No worries, I'll be here to make sure you have the full measure of the moral opprobrium you deserve.

[Valrifell]

Small correction: Bezos is lambasted in the mass media because Amazon does extremely little curation of its self-published books section. Don't care about the rest of the argument, but I figured this was relevant.

As usually, your information is not only old but wrong. He caved. Now if your book is a hate one, it's removed. A great number of books related to Herr Hitler or which were deemed anti-semetic or racist are gone. He receives effusive praise for the crumbs he throws your sort. Afterall, he bribes them with WaPo jobs and being his censorship committee

https://www.amazon.com/Mein-Kampf/dp/0395925037

Look, it's even on sale. 20% off, what a steal.

[The East Marches II]

As usually, your information is not only old but wrong. He caved. Now if your book is a hate one, it's removed. A great number of books related to Herr Hitler or which were deemed anti-semetic or racist are gone. He receives effusive praise for the crumbs he throws your sort. Afterall, he bribes them with WaPo jobs and being his censorship committee

https://www.amazon.com/Mein-Kampf/dp/0395925037

Look, it's even on sale. 20% off, what a steal.

You can't get Hitler's Table Talk, the Jewish revolutionary spirit or any number of books of that nature. Hitler's Table Talk was viewed as the gold standard for evaluating his ideas more so than Mein Kampf which is a poorly written book. I should not surprised you would resort to that as proof of censorship not existing. On that note, I'll be sure to use a single black man in government as proof systemic racism doesn't exist the next time you bring it up. You ignore that also gentlemen like Tommy Robinson or the infamous Jewish Revolutionary spirit books have also been removed for hate. Those alone remove your frankly pathetic and desperate position that this censorship does not exist.