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LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What kind of Leftist are you?

Centrist/Moderate/Third wayer.
17
12%
Social Liberal
10
7%
Social Democrat
22
16%
Green Progressive
7
5%
Democratic Socialist
25
18%
Marxist Communist
19
14%
Anarchist Communist
20
14%
Other (please state)
20
14%
 
Total votes : 140

User avatar
Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9452
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:40 am

Duvniask wrote:
Novus America wrote:The DSA largely just wants more welfare handouts anyways. Many DSA are often more “the government should pay my tuition even if I just get smashed and do not even show up to class, government should pay for my Starbucks to help with my hang” over actual “revolution” or even socialism.

The DSA is largely just want a Nordic style welfare state, MINUS the social obligations it requires to work (tell the many DSA Sweden has conscription and their mind would be utterly blown).

Conscription has literally nothing to do with it.

"government should pay for my Starbucks", Jesus Christ, this is like some Fox News, Boomer type shit.

To be fair, a lot of DSA members who joined due to Bernie's campaign sending them there are hovering around the legal voting age and are pretty unqualified to talk about socialist theory. Many of them understand little regarding the topics they espouse.

This not the case for chapter and national leadership. But a lot of the ground solders of DSA are pretty naive. The YDSA in particular is super cringy.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
Duvniask
Senator
 
Posts: 4516
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:48 am

Cisairse wrote:
Duvniask wrote:Conscription has literally nothing to do with it.

"government should pay for my Starbucks", Jesus Christ, this is like some Fox News, Boomer type shit.

To be fair, a lot of DSA members who joined due to Bernie's campaign sending them there are hovering around the legal voting age and are pretty unqualified to talk about socialist theory. Many of them understand little regarding the topics they espouse.

This not the case for chapter and national leadership. But a lot of the ground solders of DSA are pretty naive. The YDSA in particular is super cringy.

Show me anything that indicates these people are more naive than the average Joe, then. Especially the average American.

And yes, these people are little more than social democratcs, or even social democrats-lite, but how the fuck is this reason to dismiss their concerns? It's just dumb Boomer shit to suggest they only want Starbucks and party money under the disguise of tuition payments.
Last edited by Duvniask on Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
Supporting anTIFA.

Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87
Danish | Political science student | Left communist
The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.

User avatar
Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9452
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:02 am

Duvniask wrote:
Cisairse wrote:To be fair, a lot of DSA members who joined due to Bernie's campaign sending them there are hovering around the legal voting age and are pretty unqualified to talk about socialist theory. Many of them understand little regarding the topics they espouse.

This not the case for chapter and national leadership. But a lot of the ground solders of DSA are pretty naive. The YDSA in particular is super cringy.

Show me anything that indicates these people are more naive than the average Joe, then. Especially the average American.


I'd actually say that having a clear list of goals, even if they don't understand the policies behind those goals or the history thereof, actually makes them less naive than an average American voter. As sad as that is.

Duvniask wrote:And yes, these people are little more than social democratcs, or even social democrats-lite, but how the fuck is this reason to dismiss their concerns? It's just dumb Boomer shit to suggest they only want Starbucks and party money under the disguise of tuition payments.


I 100% agree. Succdems may be succdems but everyone should have the chance to platform their opinions, and I'd rather have naive succdems in power than intelligent liberals.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66008
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:12 am

Duvniask wrote:
Novus America wrote:The DSA largely just wants more welfare handouts anyways. Many DSA are often more “the government should pay my tuition even if I just get smashed and do not even show up to class, government should pay for my Starbucks to help with my hang” over actual “revolution” or even socialism.

The DSA is largely just want a Nordic style welfare state, MINUS the social obligations it requires to work (tell the many DSA Sweden has conscription and their mind would be utterly blown).

Conscription has literally nothing to do with it.

"government should pay for my Starbucks", Jesus Christ, this is like some Fox News, Boomer type shit.

I'd call conscription a reasonable expectation for a society that cares care of its people.
Rights come with responsibilities.
Liberal Social Democrat. Vague leftist, growing more cynical as each day passes.
The DNC is better than the GOP like Manslaughter is better than Murder: Seems like a lesser crime, but the victim can't tell the difference.

User avatar
Duvniask
Senator
 
Posts: 4516
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:29 am

Genivaria wrote:
Duvniask wrote:Conscription has literally nothing to do with it.

"government should pay for my Starbucks", Jesus Christ, this is like some Fox News, Boomer type shit.

I'd call conscription a reasonable expectation for a society that cares care of its people.
Rights come with responsibilities.

Conscription should only exist during wartime, or as deterrence against hostile neighbors (i.e. as in South Korea). I fail to see how my "responsibility" to be in boot camp would be worthwhile outside of that.

If you want citizens to give something back as a "responsibility" to their rights, well, first of all there's taxation; second, there are a myriad of ways to do it aside from military conscription.
Last edited by Duvniask on Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Supporting anTIFA.

Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87
Danish | Political science student | Left communist
The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36135
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:31 am

Duvniask wrote:
Novus America wrote:The DSA largely just wants more welfare handouts anyways. Many DSA are often more “the government should pay my tuition even if I just get smashed and do not even show up to class, government should pay for my Starbucks to help with my hang” over actual “revolution” or even socialism.

The DSA is largely just want a Nordic style welfare state, MINUS the social obligations it requires to work (tell the many DSA Sweden has conscription and their mind would be utterly blown).

Conscription has literally nothing to do with it.

"government should pay for my Starbucks", Jesus Christ, this is like some Fox News, Boomer type shit.


No, conscription does have a lot to do with it. I am not against social democracy, just the Sanders/DSA misunderstanding of it. Social democracy is a much more than just more welfare, it is a social contract, nothing is “free”. Society has an obligation to you, but you have obligations to society (such as fighting to defend it). Thus saying free healthcare and free college shows a complete misunderstanding of it.

That is the problem, wanting “free” stuff without paying back to society in return.

I have no problem with government subsidized education as long as it comes with strict grade and attendance requirements (do not show up for class, you should lose any government payment for the classes you missed unless you have a really good excuse) and you pay it back in contributions to society.

The truth is we have “free” college. It is called ROTC and the GI Bill.

Anecdotal but telling.
I had a class at 8 in the morning. There were maybe 150 people in the class, 15 military (obvious who was because we always wore uniforms and usually sat together).

There was no class penalty for attendance (but for military students we could be disciplined by our military program for missing class). By the middle of the semester there were only about 20 students, all 15 military and some five civilians showing up.

Why should those who did not show up get the same government funding as the military students given out greater discipline and social requirements (we did community service as well like cleaning up the campus)?

Nothing is free. If you want something without the monetary expense someone else is still paying a cost, if you are not. Society should provide for basic needs, BUT their should be societal obligations in return.

The Nordics understand that, but it seems many in the DSA might not.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36135
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:35 am

Duvniask wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I'd call conscription a reasonable expectation for a society that cares care of its people.
Rights come with responsibilities.

Conscription should only exist during wartime, or as deterrence against hostile neighbors (i.e. as in South Korea). I fail to see how my "responsibility" to be in boot camp would be worthwhile outside of that.


Well I think a national Service system should have a non military alternative for those not properly qualified or motivated for military service.
But there still should be some national service obligations if society is to support you.

But conscription in wartime is usually too late, training takes time. The purpose of a two year military requirement is so that there is a massive pool of trained personnel who can be recalled in wartime.

That and to build social cohesion. That last part being critical.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66008
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:35 am

Duvniask wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I'd call conscription a reasonable expectation for a society that cares care of its people.
Rights come with responsibilities.

Conscription should only exist during wartime, or as deterrence against hostile neighbors (i.e. as in South Korea). I fail to see how my "responsibility" to be in boot camp would be worthwhile outside of that.

If you want citizens to give something back as a "responsibility" to their rights, well, first of all there's taxation; second, there are a myriad of ways to do it aside from military conscription.

Exactly why is conscription not acceptable to you?
Liberal Social Democrat. Vague leftist, growing more cynical as each day passes.
The DNC is better than the GOP like Manslaughter is better than Murder: Seems like a lesser crime, but the victim can't tell the difference.

User avatar
Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9452
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:36 am

Genivaria wrote:
Duvniask wrote:Conscription should only exist during wartime, or as deterrence against hostile neighbors (i.e. as in South Korea). I fail to see how my "responsibility" to be in boot camp would be worthwhile outside of that.

If you want citizens to give something back as a "responsibility" to their rights, well, first of all there's taxation; second, there are a myriad of ways to do it aside from military conscription.

Exactly why is conscription not acceptable to you?

Conscripting is antithetical to personal liberty.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66008
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:38 am

Cisairse wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Exactly why is conscription not acceptable to you?

Conscripting is antithetical to personal liberty.

Lots of laws are antithetical to personal liberty, yet they are still justified.
Liberal Social Democrat. Vague leftist, growing more cynical as each day passes.
The DNC is better than the GOP like Manslaughter is better than Murder: Seems like a lesser crime, but the victim can't tell the difference.

User avatar
Dominioan
Diplomat
 
Posts: 536
Founded: Dec 10, 2019
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Dominioan » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:38 am

Duvniask wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I'd call conscription a reasonable expectation for a society that cares care of its people.
Rights come with responsibilities.

Conscription should only exist during wartime, or as deterrence against hostile neighbors (i.e. as in South Korea). I fail to see how my "responsibility" to be in boot camp would be worthwhile outside of that.

If you want citizens to give something back as a "responsibility" to their rights, well, first of all there's taxation; second, there are a myriad of ways to do it aside from military conscription.

I think conscription was stopped for a while, then brought back because of Russia.
E
An introvert stuck in the USA, wants to get smart and maybe have friends owo, and a proud Okie (in spirt, anyway).
I play gaemz.
I looked at an airplane and it exploded because im so ugly
Lawful Neutral
Funny Quotes:
Minskiev wrote:Surrender baguette hon hon hon oui oui fançais français on hon hon croissant hon hon Paris Paris hon hon surrender guillotine Ratatouille Louis hon hon hon

Dear French people: I am so, sooooo sorry.

[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.

☆ ☆ Everyone calls me Dom. You can call me that too. ☆ ☆
"Succdem" I guess

Schools in. Good luck soldiers.

Carefully picked facts about the real moi

User avatar
Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9452
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:39 am

Genivaria wrote:
Cisairse wrote:Conscripting is antithetical to personal liberty.

Lots of laws are antithetical to personal liberty, yet they are still justified.


Sure, but most tolerable laws that restrict personal liberty are reactive (they prevent you from doing something), not proactive (they force you to do something). The former is far, far more justifiable than the latter.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66008
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:43 am

Cisairse wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Lots of laws are antithetical to personal liberty, yet they are still justified.


Sure, but most tolerable laws that restrict personal liberty are reactive (they prevent you from doing something), not proactive (they force you to do something). The former is far, far more justifiable than the latter.

You mean like forcing someone to pay taxes.
Liberal Social Democrat. Vague leftist, growing more cynical as each day passes.
The DNC is better than the GOP like Manslaughter is better than Murder: Seems like a lesser crime, but the victim can't tell the difference.

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36135
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:44 am

Cisairse wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Exactly why is conscription not acceptable to you?

Conscripting is antithetical to personal liberty.


Herein lies the problem. Complete individualism is antithetical to social functioning.
I do not think it should be enforce by prison, but you ability to vote and receive government college benefits should depend on your willingness to give to society in some form of national service (which would not necessarily have to be military service, as not all are suitable for military service).
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9452
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:45 am

Genivaria wrote:
Cisairse wrote:
Sure, but most tolerable laws that restrict personal liberty are reactive (they prevent you from doing something), not proactive (they force you to do something). The former is far, far more justifiable than the latter.

You mean like forcing someone to pay taxes.


Taxes are opt-in. You don't have to work; if you don't work, you don't have to pay taxes.

Mandatory conscription is not opt-in.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66008
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:45 am

Novus America wrote:
Cisairse wrote:Conscripting is antithetical to personal liberty.


Herein lies the problem. Complete individualism is antithetical to social functioning.
I do not think it should be enforce by prison, but you ability to vote and receive government college benefits should depend on your willingness to give to society in some form of national service (which would not necessarily have to be military service, as not all are suitable for military service).

I completely agree with this, I like the model I've seen of 1 year of military service or 2 years of civilian service.
Liberal Social Democrat. Vague leftist, growing more cynical as each day passes.
The DNC is better than the GOP like Manslaughter is better than Murder: Seems like a lesser crime, but the victim can't tell the difference.

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 66008
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:46 am

Cisairse wrote:
Genivaria wrote:You mean like forcing someone to pay taxes.


Taxes are opt-in. You don't have to work; if you don't work, you don't have to pay taxes.

Mandatory conscription is not opt-in.

Where do you live where the only taxes are income taxes?
Liberal Social Democrat. Vague leftist, growing more cynical as each day passes.
The DNC is better than the GOP like Manslaughter is better than Murder: Seems like a lesser crime, but the victim can't tell the difference.

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36135
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:47 am

Cisairse wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Lots of laws are antithetical to personal liberty, yet they are still justified.


Sure, but most tolerable laws that restrict personal liberty are reactive (they prevent you from doing something), not proactive (they force you to do something). The former is far, far more justifiable than the latter.


What about taxes? But I actually agree you should not be forced to do the national service, but that society should give you fewer benefits in return (such as no ability to vote or get govern subsidized college) if you refuse to perform it. Thus making it fair, a voluntary social contract over force.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Imperium Romanum Sanctis
Envoy
 
Posts: 212
Founded: Jun 19, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperium Romanum Sanctis » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:50 am

Cisairse wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Exactly why is conscription not acceptable to you?

Conscripting is antithetical to personal liberty.


Then don't advocate for collectivist policies if you aren't willing to make the personal sacrifices necessary for them to work.

A welfare state only functions properly if a country's people are willing to sacrifice some personal liberties in order for the system to thrive. As has already been mentioned, the Nordic countries have a lot of social responsibilities and expectations that go hand-in-hand with their welfare model; one of which being conscription.

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36135
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:53 am

Imperium Romanum Sanctis wrote:
Cisairse wrote:Conscripting is antithetical to personal liberty.


Then don't advocate for collectivist policies if you aren't willing to make the personal sacrifices necessary for them to work.

A welfare state only functions properly if a country's people are willing to sacrifice some personal liberties in order for the system to thrive. As has already been mentioned, the Nordic countries have a lot of social responsibilities and expectations that go hand-in-hand with their welfare model; one of which being conscription.


Exactly. Although I consider myself somewhat a social democrat, the problem is many Americans who claim to be social democrats (or democratic socialists despite being welfare capitalists) fail to understand nothing you get is actually free.
Last edited by Novus America on Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Dominioan
Diplomat
 
Posts: 536
Founded: Dec 10, 2019
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Dominioan » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:56 am

Novus America wrote:
Imperium Romanum Sanctis wrote:
Then don't advocate for collectivist policies if you aren't willing to make the personal sacrifices necessary for them to work.

A welfare state only functions properly if a country's people are willing to sacrifice some personal liberties in order for the system to thrive. As has already been mentioned, the Nordic countries have a lot of social responsibilities and expectations that go hand-in-hand with their welfare model; one of which being conscription.


Exactly. Although I consider myself somewhat a social democrat, the problem is many Americans who claim to be social democrats (or democratic socialists despite being welfare capitalists) fail to understand nothing you get is actually free.

Conscription is all well and good, but there should be ways out, like civilian service.
E
An introvert stuck in the USA, wants to get smart and maybe have friends owo, and a proud Okie (in spirt, anyway).
I play gaemz.
I looked at an airplane and it exploded because im so ugly
Lawful Neutral
Funny Quotes:
Minskiev wrote:Surrender baguette hon hon hon oui oui fançais français on hon hon croissant hon hon Paris Paris hon hon surrender guillotine Ratatouille Louis hon hon hon

Dear French people: I am so, sooooo sorry.

[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.

☆ ☆ Everyone calls me Dom. You can call me that too. ☆ ☆
"Succdem" I guess

Schools in. Good luck soldiers.

Carefully picked facts about the real moi

User avatar
Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9452
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:58 am

Genivaria wrote:
Cisairse wrote:
Taxes are opt-in. You don't have to work; if you don't work, you don't have to pay taxes.

Mandatory conscription is not opt-in.

Where do you live where the only taxes are income taxes?


Where I live property taxes are basically nothing more than filling out a form; I often forget that other jurisdictions have serious property taxes.

In any case, I would argue that all taxes are opt-in. You don't pay property taxes if you don't own property. You don't pay sales taxes if you don't buy things. You don't pay capital gains taxes if you don't trade stocks. Etc.

Novus America wrote:
Cisairse wrote:
Sure, but most tolerable laws that restrict personal liberty are reactive (they prevent you from doing something), not proactive (they force you to do something). The former is far, far more justifiable than the latter.


What about taxes? But I actually agree you should not be forced to do the national service, but that society should give you fewer benefits in return (such as no ability to vote or get govern subsidized college) if you refuse to perform it. Thus making it fair, a voluntary social contract over force.


I find the idea of having conscription be a requirement to engage in government-sponsored programs mostly agreeable, assuming that you can choose economic conscription rather than military service.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36135
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:02 pm

Dominioan wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Exactly. Although I consider myself somewhat a social democrat, the problem is many Americans who claim to be social democrats (or democratic socialists despite being welfare capitalists) fail to understand nothing you get is actually free.

Conscription is all well and good, but there should be ways out, like civilian service.


Oh I absolutely agree, not all are physically and mental suitable for military service, or can serve best in military service.
Also the for the US our population is so massive Israel type conscription would result in an insanely huge military.

My program would count service in the Public Health Service Commission Corps and Foreign Service as military or uniformed service.
Plus have alternative civilian options available for those not properly motivated and qualified for military service.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Imperium Romanum Sanctis
Envoy
 
Posts: 212
Founded: Jun 19, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperium Romanum Sanctis » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:03 pm

Novus America wrote:
Imperium Romanum Sanctis wrote:
Then don't advocate for collectivist policies if you aren't willing to make the personal sacrifices necessary for them to work.

A welfare state only functions properly if a country's people are willing to sacrifice some personal liberties in order for the system to thrive. As has already been mentioned, the Nordic countries have a lot of social responsibilities and expectations that go hand-in-hand with their welfare model; one of which being conscription.


Exactly. Although I consider myself somewhat a social democrat, the problem is many Americans who claim to be social democrats (or democratic socialists despite being welfare capitalists) fail to understand nothing you get is actually free.


Yeah, there's a bit of a cognitive dissonance where a lot of people think they can just copy-paste the Nordic welfare model to the US without having to sacrifice any personal liberties aside from higher taxes for the rich.

Especially when it comes to healthcare, people tend to be ignorant of the fact that most countries with a form of universal healthcare also have fairly stringent anti-obesity laws. There's usually a fat tax on sugary products and processed foods, as well as fairly restrictive laws on the sale of tobacco and a state-monopoly on the sale of alcohol. People like Sanders tend to leave that out when advocating for an American welfare state.

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36135
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:04 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Where do you live where the only taxes are income taxes?


Where I live property taxes are basically nothing more than filling out a form; I often forget that other jurisdictions have serious property taxes.

In any case, I would argue that all taxes are opt-in. You don't pay property taxes if you don't own property. You don't pay sales taxes if you don't buy things. You don't pay capital gains taxes if you don't trade stocks. Etc.

Novus America wrote:
What about taxes? But I actually agree you should not be forced to do the national service, but that society should give you fewer benefits in return (such as no ability to vote or get govern subsidized college) if you refuse to perform it. Thus making it fair, a voluntary social contract over force.


I find the idea of having conscription be a requirement to engage in government-sponsored programs mostly agreeable, assuming that you can choose economic conscription rather than military service.


Well I am not sure what exactly you mean by economic conscription but I do agree an alternative civilian service should be available for those not best motivated or suited for military service.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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