LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

[Proctopeo]

I think we call that "economic stagnation"...

Which is only a problem if you don't have a robust social safety net, if you don't have programs for full employment, and if you are trying to make profit from economic growth. However, since profit is a form of theft, I don't really care about loss profits.

An economy that's going nowhere fast couldn't readily support both of those. One of them, maybe, with skilled budgeting.

[Mirjt]

Which is only a problem if you don't have a robust social safety net, if you don't have programs for full employment, and if you are trying to make profit from economic growth. However, since profit is a form of theft, I don't really care about loss profits.

An economy that's going nowhere fast couldn't readily support both of those. One of them, maybe, with skilled budgeting.

And why not. We have more vacant housing than homeless people, just give them the housing. We have enough food to feed 10 billion people, just give people the food. We have all kinds of services that aren't being done because they don't make profit, just guarantee a job to everyone who wants one doing those, and they can then buy other goods and services. Boom cycles are just inflation unless new value is actually being created, and most boom cycles are just speculation bubbles of people trying to make profit. If new value is being created fine, but otherwise, there should be no other kinds of economic growth.

[Mirjt]

Which is only a problem if you don't have a robust social safety net, if you don't have programs for full employment, and if you are trying to make profit from economic growth.

Without wealth creation, the safety nets will wither up. Or, whichever entity you entrust with economic management will fail because there are no price signals.

Governments spend money into creation, and then tax to create demand for that money, reduce inflation, reduce inequality, and incentivize/disincentivize certain economic behaviors. That is basic Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). So we can spend all we want, so long as we tax to reduce the inflation caused by that spending.

[Northern Davincia]

Without wealth creation, the safety nets will wither up. Or, whichever entity you entrust with economic management will fail because there are no price signals.

Governments spend money into creation, and then tax to create demand for that money, reduce inflation, reduce inequality, and incentivize/disincentivize certain economic behaviors. That is basic Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). So we can spend all we want, so long as we tax to reduce the inflation caused by that spending.

Do you think that will last forever without falling into a death spiral?

[Cisairse]

It is not really a good idea to say that an economic crisis every seven years on average is a good system because we always start the cycle over and begin a new boom-bust cycle. How about a stable system, without booms or busts, where no one can really get really excessively rich or become economically devastated?

I think we call that "economic stagnation"...

I really don't see why stagnation is a bad thing.

[Northern Davincia]

I think we call that "economic stagnation"...

I really don't see why stagnation is a bad thing.

Stagnation = no space colonies. Don't be lame, support galactic capitalism.

[Mirjt]

I really don't see why stagnation is a bad thing.

Stagnation = no space colonies. Don't be lame, support galactic capitalism.

If we are going into space (and I personally would prefer to stay on mother Earth), then I support luxury space communism (unironically) well over galactic capitalism.

[Fahran]

Yes, or you want to work to produce something, or you want to work for a number of other reasons, but you should not be forced to work just to stay alive (I can understand that line of thinking if we are in an early agricultural and pre-industrial society, or maybe a pre-agricultural society, as it is neccessary for the survival of the whole that everyone contributes, but I don't buy that line of logic for today)

I believe the majority of people, maybe not the overwhelming majority but still a majority, will still choose to do some kind of work because they want to.

There are a lot of thankless or unfulfilling jobs out there that still need to get done and can't be automated.

[Valrifell]

I really don't see why stagnation is a bad thing.

Stagnation = no space colonies. Don't be lame, support galactic capitalism.

Space colonization would exacerbate the inherent flaws within a capitalist society, since space mining would essentially take us post-scarcity and yet the inequalities inherent in capitalism would still exist, except now they'd have no material reason to exist.

Also space should be held in commons for all mankind. Socialism rockets for every man, woman, and child.

[Mirjt]

Yes, or you want to work to produce something, or you want to work for a number of other reasons, but you should not be forced to work just to stay alive (I can understand that line of thinking if we are in an early agricultural and pre-industrial society, or maybe a pre-agricultural society, as it is neccessary for the survival of the whole that everyone contributes, but I don't buy that line of logic for today)

I believe the majority of people, maybe not the overwhelming majority but still a majority, will still choose to do some kind of work because they want to.

There are a lot of thankless or unfulfilling jobs out there that still need to get done and can't be automated.

If that happens to be true, and there are jobs that no one wants to do, that the prospect of high pay for luxuries won't motivate anyone to do (assuming we are still using market economics), that we cannot automate yet, and that are necessary for whatever reason, then I propose we use the "balanced job complex" idea proposed under participatory economics.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

Yes, or you want to work to produce something, or you want to work for a number of other reasons, but you should not be forced to work just to stay alive (I can understand that line of thinking if we are in an early agricultural and pre-industrial society, or maybe a pre-agricultural society, as it is neccessary for the survival of the whole that everyone contributes, but I don't buy that line of logic for today)

I believe the majority of people, maybe not the overwhelming majority but still a majority, will still choose to do some kind of work because they want to.

There are a lot of thankless or unfulfilling jobs out there that still need to get done and can't be automated.

When I was a kid, I remember this specifically because it was really fun, all car washes were automated.

There were no hand car washes. Every petrol station had an automated car wash machine.

Now many of them have been dissembled. This job is now done by hand, by migrants mostly, because it's cheaper to do it by hand than it is by machine because the depression and other factors have suppressed wages.

When it becomes too expensive to hire people to do bad jobs, machines take over. it's not the other way around. Just like when it becomes too expensive to pay people to manually clean waste, or sew $10 jeans, technology takes over to save money. That's how it works.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Which is only a problem if you don't have a robust social safety net, if you don't have programs for full employment, and if you are trying to make profit from economic growth.

Without wealth creation, the safety nets will wither up. Or, whichever entity you entrust with economic management will fail because there are no price signals.

You don't need rich people to create wealth, in fact they actually stifle the amount of wealth in circulation.

[Northern Davincia]

Stagnation = no space colonies. Don't be lame, support galactic capitalism.

Space colonization would exacerbate the inherent flaws within a capitalist society, since space mining would essentially take us post-scarcity and yet the inequalities inherent in capitalism would still exist, except now they'd have no material reason to exist.

Also space should be held in commons for all mankind. Socialism rockets for every man, woman, and child.

I demand my own Jovian moon and I will not share it.

Without wealth creation, the safety nets will wither up. Or, whichever entity you entrust with economic management will fail because there are no price signals.

You don't need rich people to create wealth, in fact they actually stifle the amount of wealth in circulation.

Rich people are not integral to wealth creation, they're just better at it.

[Mirjt]

Space colonization would exacerbate the inherent flaws within a capitalist society, since space mining would essentially take us post-scarcity and yet the inequalities inherent in capitalism would still exist, except now they'd have no material reason to exist.

Also space should be held in commons for all mankind. Socialism rockets for every man, woman, and child.

I demand my own Jovian moon and I will not share it.

You don't need rich people to create wealth, in fact they actually stifle the amount of wealth in circulation.

Rich people are not integral to wealth creation, they're just better at it.

Star Trek Reference: Do you want us to become the Ferengi?

[United Muscovite Nations]

I demand my own Jovian moon and I will not share it.

Rich people are not integral to wealth creation, they're just better at it.

Star Trek Reference: Do you want us to become the Ferengi?

Inquiry: HK-47, is that you?

[Mirjt]

Star Trek Reference: Do you want us to become the Ferengi?

Inquiry: HK-47, is that you?

No, I am sorry, but I have never used the username: HK-47

[Dylar]

Inquiry: HK-47, is that you?

No, I am sorry, but I have never used the username: HK-47

It's a Star Wars KoToR joke

[Mirjt]

No, I am sorry, but I have never used the username: HK-47

It's a Star Wars KoToR joke

Oh!

[Northern Davincia]

I demand my own Jovian moon and I will not share it.

Rich people are not integral to wealth creation, they're just better at it.

Star Trek Reference: Do you want us to become the Ferengi?

The Ferengi did nothing wrong, you see.

[Proctopeo]

Star Trek Reference: Do you want us to become the Ferengi?

The Ferengi did nothing wrong, you see.

the virgin authoritarian communist Federation vs the chad anarcho-capitalist Ferengi Alliance

[Rostavykhan]

The Ferengi did nothing wrong, you see.

the virgin authoritarian communist Federation vs the chad anarcho-capitalist Ferengi Alliance

The THAD Borg Collective.

[Cisairse]

I really don't see why stagnation is a bad thing.

Stagnation = no space colonies. Don't be lame, support galactic capitalism.

Fully automated gay space communism >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dying a wage slave on the McMoon

[Kowani]

Governments spend money into creation, and then tax to create demand for that money, reduce inflation, reduce inequality, and incentivize/disincentivize certain economic behaviors. That is basic Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). So we can spend all we want, so long as we tax to reduce the inflation caused by that spending.

Do you think that will last forever without falling into a death spiral?

It is slightly more complicated than that, but yes.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

You're expected to be employed under pretty much any socioeconomic system that expects to run for more than a couple years. And I'm not certain housing is a human right. Personally and socially beneficial, sure, but, if it were a widely accepted right everywhere, we wouldn't have to actually talk about widespread homelessness. We have that problem precisely because historically we haven't viewed housing as a human right and, at present, most of us still don't.

As far as I am concerned, everything in the following non-exhaustive list, should be a human right, and should be guaranteed regardless of employment status:

Healthy Food
Potable Water
Comprehensive Healthcare
Quality Housing
Comfortable Clothing
Sanitation and Hygiene
Public Transportation
Electricity
Communication and Information (libraries, newspapers, internet service, cable, phone service, postal service, etc...)
Quality Education (including higher education)
Banking services (public banking, postal banking, credit unions, etc...)
Etc...

Also I am in favor of giving people a job guarantee, alongside these universal basic services (UBS) and a universal basic income (UBI)

These are the right to life and the right to health.Of course, they are human rights

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Stagnation = no space colonies. Don't be lame, support galactic capitalism.

Fully automated gay space communism >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dying a wage slave on the McMoon

WTF...Star Trek？