LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

[Novus America]

I mean both the Soviet government and Russian government eventually and reluctantly admitted too it. If it was not true why would they do that?

“Because they hate Stalin”. Mkay then why only reluctantly and belatedly admit it? Plus the current Russian government is actually trying to rehabilitate Stalin and is hardly against his legacy yet still does not deny the Massacre.

Putin admits the Soviets did it despite his soft spot for Stalin.

[Loben The 2nd]

Are you seriously claiming that the Katyn Massacre wasn't committed by the Soviets?

Yes, and I think Gorbachov as the gravedigger of the Soviet Union made up material about the topic which is taken by contemporary historians. Thank you for looking my old posts.

ok so if not the Soviets then who?

did the Polish officer corps decide to have a mass suicide in a forest because their country was being partitioned between the Germans and the russians for the umpteenth time?

[The New California Republic]

Yes, and I think Gorbachov as the gravedigger of the Soviet Union

Tbh Brezhnev is arguably actually a better candidate for that title.

[Proctopeo]

Yes, and I think Gorbachov as the gravedigger of the Soviet Union made up material about the topic which is taken by contemporary historians. Thank you for looking my old posts.

ok so if not the Soviets then who?

did the Polish officer corps decide to have a mass suicide in a forest because their country was being partitioned between the Germans and the russians for the umpteenth time?

orbital american death cannons, of course

[Alt-Right Death Squads]

eugenics isn't racisms, eugenics is a fact.

Eugenics is literally racism. According to eugenic literature, you can determine important aspects of people by looking at their race.

If you’re racist, just own your racism. Don’t try to claim that your racist ideology is not racist, it’s disingenuous. You have convinced yourself that racism is bad, and you are not bad, so you cannot be racist.

Eugenics, however, is inherently racist.

Race is an actual taxonomic class, similar to subspecies. Furthermore we know Africa was the birthplace of humanity, in spite of the anthropological evidence, because there are more genetically unique RACES in Africa then other continents (which would only make sense if humanity was living and adapting to that environment the longest). Acknowledging race doesn't make you racist, stop denying reality.

I can assure you that I am not currently racist, but I do like to say racist things.

Eugenics is fact, it is truth, by definition of science and reality it is not subject to political scrutiny.

[Valrifell]

Furthermore we know Africa was the birthplace of humanity, in spite of the anthropological evidence, because there are more genetically unique RACES in Africa then other continents (which would only make sense if humanity was living and adapting to that environment the longest)

What did you so grossly misinterpret to come to that conclusion? Most anthropological evidence agrees with that theory.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Race is an actual taxonomic class, similar to subspecies.

It’s actually not, it’s literally just an aesthetic based on the amount of melanin in one’s skin. Homo Sapiens are on the only extant species of Homo that currently exist, and all humans that exist today are Homo Sapiens, no “””subspecies””” exist.

I can assure you that I am not currently racist, but I do like to say racist things.

Liking to say racist things is an indication of racism.

Eugenics is fact, it is truth, by definition of science and reality it is not subject to political scrutiny.

It’s really not fact.

[New haven america]

Eugenics is literally racism. According to eugenic literature, you can determine important aspects of people by looking at their race.

If you’re racist, just own your racism. Don’t try to claim that your racist ideology is not racist, it’s disingenuous. You have convinced yourself that racism is bad, and you are not bad, so you cannot be racist.

Eugenics, however, is inherently racist.

1. Race is an actual taxonomic class, similar to subspecies. 2. Furthermore we know Africa was the birthplace of humanity, in spite of the anthropological evidence, 3. because there are more genetically unique RACES in Africa then other continents (which would only make sense if humanity was living and adapting to that environment the longest). 4. Acknowledging race doesn't make you racist, stop denying reality.

4. I can assure you that I am not currently racist, but I do like to say racist things.

Eugenics is fact, it is truth, by definition of science and reality it is not subject to political scrutiny.

1. Sociologically? No, race doesn't actually exist and was made up by colonialists ~500 years ago to further their colonial goals. What we know as race from a sociological standpoint is actually polymorphy in biology. Biologically? No, race isn't just similar to subspecies, it is a term for subspecies.
2. ... Anthropological evidence says Africa is the birthplace of humanity.
3. No, there are genetically unique polymorphs in Africa, not races. Humans have no race because we killed off the last subspecies of human ~100,000-60,000 years ago (Neanderthals).
4.Everything past this point is fucking stupid and you should feel bad for having written it.

[Cisairse]

I can assure you that I am not currently racist, but I do like to say racist things.

This take is so hot Posadas is jealous

[Byeclase]

“Polish mass graves have been found near Smolensk. The Bolsheviks simply shot down and then shoveled into mass graves some 10,000 Polish prisoners, among them civilian captives, bishops, intellectuals, artists, et cetera. . . .Gruesome aberrations of the human soul were thus revealed. I saw to it that the Polish mass graves be inspected by neutral journalists from Berlin. I also had Polish intellectuals taken there. They are to see for themselves what is in store for them should their wish that the Germans be defeated by the Bolsheviks actually be fulfilled.”

Is it better if you read it all instead of cutting isolated quotes.

Quotes from the part "The three aims of Goebbels’ Katyn propaganda campaign"

Almost exactly 67 years before the death of Poland’s president Lech Kaczinski and his companions in the air crash under Smolensk the German minister of propaganda and education Joseph Goebbels on the 9th of April 1943 wrote in his diary: ‘Polish mass graves have been found near Smolensk’. Goebbels asserted: ‘The Bolsheviks simply shot down and then shovelled into mass graves some 10 000 Polish prisoners, among them civilian captives, bishops, intellectuals, artists, etc.’

Not mentioning how the responsibility of the ‘Bolsheviks’ for this doing was proved and how the professional occupations of the dead people were established, Goebbels hastened to write down his plan of using the dead bodies found in the Katyn forest. In the same paragraph he wrote: ‘I saw to it that the Polish mass graves were inspected by neutral journalists from Berlin. I also had Polish intellectuals taken there. They are to see for themselves what was in store for them if their wish for a German defeat at the hands of the Bolsheviks should ever be fulfilled’. First and foremost Goebbels wanted to frighten the Polish population and make it support Germany in the war against the Soviet Union.

On the 13th of April the German radio and press started to repeat Goebbels’ accusations. On the 14th of April Goebbels wrote down in his diary: ‘We are now using the discovery of 12 000 Polish officers, murdered by the GPU, for the Bolshevik propaganda in the grand manner. (It is noteworthy that within five days Goebbels increased the number of dead bodies from 10 000 to 12 000. The disregard for exact facts, so typical for Goebbels, is also evident in his use of “GPU” which ceased to exist in 1934. Since 1934 the functions of the GPU, or the Main Political Administration, were performed by NKVD, or the People’s Commissariat of Domestic Affairs of the USSR. Author.) We sent neutral journalists and Polish intellectuals to the spot where they were found... The Fuehrer has also given permission for us to hand out a dramatic release to the German press. I gave instructions that the widest possible use should be made of this propaganda material. It will keep us going for a couple of weeks’.

On 18th of April Goebbels wrote in his diary: ‘Here and there certain groups of Germans, especially the intellectuals, expressed the idea that Bolshevism isn’t as bad as the Nazis represent it to be. That is owing to the fact that our consideration for the families of men missing in action in the East has been such that we have not described the atrocities of Bolshevism as they actually happened. The Katyn case now offers a welcome opportunity to catch up on this. The families of our missing men in the East simply must accept this sacrifice so that the German people won’t someday have to face a greater one, perhaps even that of their national existence’.

on the 28th of April: ‘The military men at the Fuehrer’s General Headquarters have actually succeeded in eliminating the pictures of Katyn from the weekly newsreel... The military rest their case on the morale of the families of our men missing in action. We have to choose between the feelings of these individuals and the interests of the people as a whole. I regard the latter as much more important and therefore advocate that we expose Bolshevism exactly as it is’.

https://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/ ... /katyn.htm

ok so if not the Soviets then who?

did the Polish officer corps decide to have a mass suicide in a forest because their country was being partitioned between the Germans and the russians for the umpteenth time?

The nazis.

Yes, and I think Gorbachov as the gravedigger of the Soviet Union

Tbh Brezhnev is arguably actually a better candidate for that title.

Him too, I consider the Union was capitalist starting from Khruschev.

I mean both the Soviet government and Russian government eventually and reluctantly admitted too it. If it was not true why would they do that?

“Because they hate Stalin”. Mkay then why only reluctantly and belatedly admit it? Plus the current Russian government is actually trying to rehabilitate Stalin and is hardly against his legacy yet still does not deny the Massacre.

Putin admits the Soviets did it despite his soft spot for Stalin.

Not because they hate Stalin, but because the class he represents is the Russian bourgeoisie and they're anticommunists. Putin just claims and partially restores the figure of Stalin as a nationalistic measure which strengthens his conservative power against the US. The Russian military reads the nazbol "Foundations of Geopolitics".
Their tactic is engaging in to-the-right-of-Trump and to-the-left-of-Bernie propaganda (true and false) to incite against stability and boost anti-Anlanticism (which benefits Russian imperialism).

The "Soviet government" was already capitalist from Khruschev and of course the last gravediggers would propagandize against it serving the capitalists, nothing new here, they represent the bourgeoisie.

[Loben The 2nd]

Do you have proof it was the nazis?

[Lucja]

Do you have proof it was the nazis?

If there was proof that the Nazis committed the massacre then it wouldn't be Western larpers informing us because every Russian nationalist and revisionist would be running around screaming at the top of their lungs. Instead they resort to whataboutism or claiming that Gorbachev was a Western imperialist spy. It's shameful how they spit all over the memory of one of the worst events in Polish history. All to defend a mass murderer and a pedophile.

[Loben The 2nd]

Do you have proof it was the nazis?

If there was proof that the Nazis committed the massacre then it wouldn't be Western larpers informing us because every Russian nationalist and revisionist would be running around screaming at the top of their lungs. Instead they resort to whataboutism or claiming that Gorbachev was a Western imperialist spy. It's shameful how they spit all over the memory of one of the worst events in Polish history. All to defend a mass murderer and a pedophile.

this is the same Russia that (without shame mind you) Conquered eastern Europe.

why on earth would they deny fucking Katyn?

[Novus America]

Denying the Soviets committed the Massacre is the worst sort of fake history, there is overwhelming proof and even admission of Soviet culpability, on the lunatic fringe denies it. It is similar to Holocaust denial or claiming the German regime of the time was not responsible.

[Neanderthaland]

Yes, and I think Gorbachov as the gravedigger of the Soviet Union

You misspelled "thank."

[Byeclase]

Do you have proof it was the nazis?

If there was proof that the Nazis committed the massacre then it wouldn't be Western larpers informing us because every Russian nationalist and revisionist would be running around screaming at the top of their lungs. Instead they resort to whataboutism or claiming that Gorbachev was a Western imperialist spy. It's shameful how they spit all over the memory of one of the worst events in Polish history. All to defend a mass murderer and a pedophile.

Some of them do it https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 26id%3D205

And the non-western Communist Party of the Russian Federation too http://cprf.ru/2010/10/cprf-opposes-the ... history-2/

Yes, and I think Gorbachov as the gravedigger of the Soviet Union

You misspelled "thank."

Sorry, I should have posted "tank" instead.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Denying the Soviets committed the Massacre is the worst sort of fake history, there is overwhelming proof and even admission of Soviet culpability, on the lunatic fringe denies it. It is similar to Holocaust denial or claiming the German regime of the time was not responsible.

But for some reason our society is more tolerant of that than holocaust denial.

[Byeclase]

Denying the Soviets committed the Massacre is the worst sort of fake history, there is overwhelming proof and even admission of Soviet culpability, on the lunatic fringe denies it. It is similar to Holocaust denial or claiming the German regime of the time was not responsible.

But for some reason our society is more tolerant of that than holocaust denial.

Yes, because this version is "very popular and tolerated", nazis=communists and The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, fascists monuments, groups protected by police and "antifa as terorrists" don't exist at all.

[The Reformed American Republic]

But for some reason our society is more tolerant of that than holocaust denial.

Yes, because this version is "very popular and tolerated", nazis=communists and The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, fascists monuments, groups protected by police and "antifa as terorrists" don't exist at all.

Not popular yet, but you have academics here in the west set on denying and whitewashing Soviet atrocities. It's only a matter of time where this type of bullshit is popular. Despite some people saying antifa are terrorist, the mainstream doesn't think so. I have seen many tankies here quote such academics, and one such academic (Angela Davis) even visited the University I'm attending. Nazis can't speak (which I don't really care about), but tankies can.

[Byeclase]

Yes, because this version is "very popular and tolerated", nazis=communists and The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, fascists monuments, groups protected by police and "antifa as terorrists" don't exist at all.

Not popular yet, but you have academics here in the west set on denying and whitewashing Soviet atrocities. It's only a matter of time where this type of bullshit is popular. Despite some people saying antifa are terrorist, the mainstream doesn't think so. I have seen many tankies here quote such academics, and one such academic (Angela Davis) even visited the University I'm attending. Nazis can't speak (which I don't really care about), but tankies can.

I think universities typically position more to the left than the environment of "real life" and students are more prone to allow people who paint themselves as red in a socdem environment rather than a fascist-conservative environment, yet in 2 ones I know there was an ultraconservative conference from a party and they did it. When a "tankie" group wanted to go to 1 of them, the mentioned ultraconservative group started to protest, the group was able to talk supported by students, but talks about the figure of Stalin were denied. In other case and location the police entered the building (which is illegal) and started to ask for the national identification for feminist students (painted in red revisionists) who were speaking against the conference from said ultraconservative group.

Those talking about antifa as terrorists are mostly fascists and conservative Trump supporters as I can see, which is the majoritarian party in the government. Of course as you say, it doesn't mean it's held by the majority of the population, but the government pushes for that.

Angela Davis is a revisionist too anyways and she defends soviet social-imperialist crimes, legitimizing herself in a "mask trial" https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/n ... -davis.htm, the USA and the CPUSA (full of bad theory and probably infiltration) may let her as a feminist counter and to legitimate themselves as "democratic". Yet you'll have to see if they're actually crimes. But let's not forget that non-nazi crimes of other capitalist ideologies highly outnumber (by hunger, by war, etc. over time) those nazi crimes yet they're able to talk as "centrists", just a legitimation mask. Also, I doubt Angela Davis spoke specifically about Katyn.

Anyways, I wish you were right in your prediction. What you're predicting is a vision of progressivism kind of Bernies but positive about the USSR. Apart from antifascism which roots out the fascists (as they keep appearing because it's capitalism which generates the fascism) and allows more tolerance, I don't believe that it'll be better without a revolutionary change.
I don't think we need liberal falsifiers to tell us what's wrong and right, the communist movement in itself can correct those errors from inside.

The self-criticism and democracy is inside the own theory and there isn't Goebbels' "Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth" theory. The nazis have to use that tactic because they have to permanently deceive the population to keep the bourgeoisie in power and stop workers' rebellions, we don't need that.

Another edit: I'm not opposed to anti-revisionist protests against Angela Davis in her talks, yet I'm opposed to rightist protests against her which are deceitful and hide the worst intentions.

[Novus America]

How about not banning speech based on point of view? Holocaust denial is legal here, and should not be illegal here, but like tankie BS should be shamed and mocked. There is not enough shaming and mocking of tankie BS.

[The Reformed American Republic]

How about not banning speech based on pint of view? Holocaust denial is legal here, and should not be illegal here, but like tankie BS should be shamed and mocked. There is not enough shaming and mocking of tankie BS.

I agree here. I don't want government banning speech. I was just saying I don't have empathy for the Nazis.

[Novus America]

How about not banning speech based on pint of view? Holocaust denial is legal here, and should not be illegal here, but like tankie BS should be shamed and mocked. There is not enough shaming and mocking of tankie BS.

I agree here. I don't want government banning speech. I was just saying I don't have empathy for the Nazis.

Sorry if it seemed like that was directed at you, it was not. But I agree, while we do not ban it certain speech deserves to be mocked and shamed. Like Nazi and Stalinist apologism (I know they are not the same, but both bad in their own ways).

[Salus Maior]

But for some reason our society is more tolerant of that than holocaust denial.

Yes, because this version is "very popular and tolerated", nazis=communists and The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, fascists monuments, groups protected by police and "antifa as terorrists" don't exist at all.

The Soviets were war criminals bud.

They treated the Poles and everyone else they conquered abysmally, exceeded only by the Nazis themselves which is saying something.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I agree here. I don't want government banning speech. I was just saying I don't have empathy for the Nazis.

Sorry if it seemed like that was directed at you, it was not. But I agree, while we do not ban it certain speech deserves to be mocked and shamed. Like Nazi and Stalinist apologism (I know they are not the same, but both bad in their own ways).

No problem.