LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

[Sundiata]

I mean... it depends on if you consider social democracy left-wing. Because, if you don't, authoritarian socialism has a much richer history than libertarian socialism when it comes to actually setting up a functional system.

Social Democracy is definitely left-wing.
Maybe in Europe it's just left-of center but pretty much everywhere else it's some measure of Left.

Too left-wing, if you ask me.

It doesn't counter the extremes of the unrestrained person or unrestrained crowd. It too easily threatens the balance that should exist between wealth creation and distribution, church and state, right and left.

[Genivaria]

Social Democracy is definitely left-wing.
Maybe in Europe it's just left-of center but pretty much everywhere else it's some measure of Left.

Too left-wing, if you ask me.

It doesn't counter the extremes of the unrestrained person or unrestrained crowd. It too easily threatens the balance that should exist between wealth creation and distribution, church and state, right and left.

Where exactly do you think the 'balance 'is?

[Sundiata]

Too left-wing, if you ask me.

It doesn't counter the extremes of the unrestrained person or unrestrained crowd. It too easily threatens the balance that should exist between wealth creation and distribution, church and state, right and left.

Where exactly do you think the 'balance 'is?

Here.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Where exactly do you think the 'balance 'is?

Here.

This looks like capitalism desperately trying to be socialist, but also trying not to be socialist, leading to failure.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

This looks like capitalism desperately trying to be socialist, but also trying not to be socialist, leading to failure.

That's such an ignorant and small brained take.

Are you a socialist by any chance?

[Rojava Free State]

Too left-wing, if you ask me.

It doesn't counter the extremes of the unrestrained person or unrestrained crowd. It too easily threatens the balance that should exist between wealth creation and distribution, church and state, right and left.

Where exactly do you think the 'balance 'is?

Basically what America has. Weak social safety nets that don't do shit.

[Rojava Free State]

I consider social democracy to be left wing, but I am a social Democrat so I am somewhat biased.

Fair enough. Some people in this thread would have to concede that left-wing government has never happened in a functional way because they don't think Lenin was left-wing and Social Democrats are well to the right of Lenin in many ways.

It's hard to define left wing. Compared to many an anarcho syndicalist, I'm to the right but compared to a fascist, I'm a communist. In my society currently, I'm left wing. I'm against crony capitalism, support police reform and support gay rights, so I'm already too far left for like half of America. I'm sure in the USSR though, I would be sentenced to death.

[Albrenia]

That's such an ignorant and small brained take.

That's a little rude.

Care to elaborate how, for those not initiated?

[Aureumterra]

Fair enough. Some people in this thread would have to concede that left-wing government has never happened in a functional way because they don't think Lenin was left-wing and Social Democrats are well to the right of Lenin in many ways.

It's hard to define left wing. Compared to many an anarcho syndicalist, I'm to the right but compared to a fascist, I'm a communist. In my society currently, I'm left wing. I'm against crony capitalism, support police reform and support gay rights, so I'm already too far left for like half of America. I'm sure in the USSR though, I would be sentenced to death.

"Supports right to private property"

You would be dead in Cuba and Maoist China

[Joohan]

It's hard to define left wing. Compared to many an anarcho syndicalist, I'm to the right but compared to a fascist, I'm a communist. In my society currently, I'm left wing. I'm against crony capitalism, support police reform and support gay rights, so I'm already too far left for like half of America. I'm sure in the USSR though, I would be sentenced to death.

"Supports right to private property"

You would be dead in Cuba and Maoist China

You're Icelandic?

[Aureumterra]

"Supports right to private property"

You would be dead in Cuba and Maoist China

You're Icelandic?

No I’m Martian

yes

[Rojava Free State]

It's hard to define left wing. Compared to many an anarcho syndicalist, I'm to the right but compared to a fascist, I'm a communist. In my society currently, I'm left wing. I'm against crony capitalism, support police reform and support gay rights, so I'm already too far left for like half of America. I'm sure in the USSR though, I would be sentenced to death.

"Supports right to private property"

You would be dead in Cuba and Maoist China

Anywhere that is communist would send me to the re-education camp at best, and would hang me at worst.

[Joohan]

You're Icelandic?

No I’m Martian

yes

Cool, i've been reading up on them recently. Country looks beautiful, very isolated ( a plus in my book ), an environmentally conscious place, a gun friendly culture, and all you ever hear about is how happy everyone is.

So, from someone who proclaims themselves as an Icelandic nationalist - i'd like to hear some bad things about the country. What are somethings that natives find distasteful about their own homeland.

[Joohan]

"Supports right to private property"

You would be dead in Cuba and Maoist China

Anywhere that is communist would send me to the re-education camp at best, and would hang me at worst.

Any movement serious about socialist revolution will inevitably advance into authoritarianism, for the sake of survival. Just saying bro

[Aureumterra]

No I’m Martian

yes

Cool, i've been reading up on them recently. Country looks beautiful, very isolated ( a plus in my book ), an environmentally conscious place, a gun friendly culture, and all you ever hear about is how happy everyone is.

So, from someone who proclaims themselves as an Icelandic nationalist - i'd like to hear some bad things about the country. What are somethings that natives find distasteful about their own homeland.

Not me, but some people think it’s too white

Reading stuff people from other countries put online, Iceland seems much better off in every sense, you don’t have to worry about poverty, drugs, crime, or any of that stuff

The 2008 financial crash was terrible though

[Joohan]

Cool, i've been reading up on them recently. Country looks beautiful, very isolated ( a plus in my book ), an environmentally conscious place, a gun friendly culture, and all you ever hear about is how happy everyone is.

So, from someone who proclaims themselves as an Icelandic nationalist - i'd like to hear some bad things about the country. What are somethings that natives find distasteful about their own homeland.

Not me, but some people think it’s too white

Reading stuff people from other countries put online, Iceland seems much better off in every sense, you don’t have to worry about poverty, drugs, crime, or any of that stuff

The 2008 financial crash was terrible though

Iceland is too white - why do I have a feeling that it was some white people who made this complaint?

Just curious, in case I ever get exiled from the United States for some reason, never to return, planning on some alternative countries I might like to live in. Your language is barbaric hogwash, but I am sure that within a few generations i'll be able to civilize you savages to the king's tongue.

[Philjia]

Leninism's got such a cult mentality. Any time anyone criticises it they inevitably get accused of being:
- A liberal (Because only a capitalist would criticise Leninism.)
- A racist (Because obviously China and the DPRK are great and therefore only a racist would criticise them.)
- A baby (Because only a baby wouldn't be able to understand how everything Leninists do is great. Lenin himself did this.)
- A puppet of the CIA (Because nobody could independently decide that they didn't like Leninism.)

[Genivaria]

Anywhere that is communist would send me to the re-education camp at best, and would hang me at worst.

Any movement serious about socialist revolution will inevitably advance into authoritarianism, for the sake of survival. Just saying bro

Depends on if they care more about 'the revolution ' or actual helping the people.

[Page]

Leninism's got such a cult mentality. Any time anyone criticises it they inevitably get accused of being:
- A liberal (Because only a capitalist would criticise Leninism.)
- A racist (Because obviously China and the DPRK are great and therefore only a racist would criticise them.)
- A baby (Because only a baby wouldn't be able to understand how everything Leninists do is great. Lenin himself did this.)
- A puppet of the CIA (Because nobody could independently decide that they didn't like Leninism.)

I think the left needs to stop clinging to Marxist-Leninist orthodoxy in general. A century has passed since the birth of the Soviet Union and the world is a fundamentally different place.

[The East Marches II]

Why wouldn't I call something by it's true name? It's not my fault you live in a narco state yet insist on lecturing to the rest of us about your human rights as lawyers are gunned down in the streets by gangs. Maybe you shouldn't be so blatantly hypocritical? Yes Rotterdam is a shithole, news at 7. We have Detroit.

Detroit and Rotterdam do not even begin to compare in terms of crime statistics, and 5 seconds of googling would have told you that.

Yeah, call things by its name. And if you knew what a narco state was, you would not call the Netherlands one.

So, if I understand you correctly... a lawyer was shot, so I don’t get to have an opinion on human rights? That’s rich.

No not at all. Infact, you really ought not to opine at all on the matter given you supposedly work in justice. You go on about how you can't trust the word of the police in the Netherlands as they try to influence politics. So which one is it? Do we trust the Dutch police or do we not? Make up your mind.

I'll note too you didn't actually refute anybody who posted stats or reports with data. You just said some mealy mouthed nonsense. I don't blame you, it must be hard looking in the mirror and not liking what you find. It would be very hard for you rail about human rights when you work for a government which actively enables human trafficking and drug production on a mass scale.

The BBC said you are basically one. Your government is so weak and pathetic, they don't need to bomb city blocs like Esobar, people like you already surrendered. Then again the Dutch government structure isn't known for strength, we saw how much strength they showed in Bosnia afterall. Perhaps we should known they'd let the drug lord's and human traffickers run the show so long they can lecture Portugal on its budget deficit and larp about human rights matters.

If you’re going for shock value, then perhaps. But at this point, you’re not trying to make a point, are you? I mean, it’s kind of weak to form your whole opinion around something based on what you think will get people upset. The sad thing is, I don’t think you realize how unconvincing your spiel is, because if you knew, you would have stopped by now.

But don’t let that stop you! It’s at least entertaining.

It isn't shock value. It's pointing out institutional culture and trends. You moan about rape culture this and racism that being built in, how about a country who's government has this built in as an acceptable outcome?



It's not really any wonder the Netherlands is largely indifferent to it becoming a narco-state anymore than it is surprising that it is ok with the human trafficking through Amsterdam. Just look at what you produce! That was my point.

Your government is just like the good Colonel Karremans. Drinking it up with the monsters while the innocent at butchered outside. But it's ok, you don't have to see it so doesn't matter right?

[Upper Nan]

It's hard to define left wing. Compared to many an anarcho syndicalist, I'm to the right but compared to a fascist, I'm a communist. In my society currently, I'm left wing. I'm against crony capitalism, support police reform and support gay rights, so I'm already too far left for like half of America. I'm sure in the USSR though, I would be sentenced to death.

"Supports right to private property"

You would be dead in Cuba and Maoist China

*1970s Cuba. Modern Cuba wouldn't execute someone for supporting or owning private property (they probably wouldn't even arrest you for just supporting it, really, unless you actually tried doing something about it). In fact, depending on the industry (especially tourism), they might encourage it.

[Upper Nan]

Anywhere that is communist would send me to the re-education camp at best, and would hang me at worst.

Any movement serious about socialist revolution will inevitably advance into authoritarianism, for the sake of survival. Just saying bro

That's what you get when you turn an economic theory into a political ideology.

[Joohan]

Any movement serious about socialist revolution will inevitably advance into authoritarianism, for the sake of survival. Just saying bro

Depends on if they care more about 'the revolution ' or actual helping the people.

That's kind of a bogus way of putting it. You don't think that any of the ML revolutionaries thought that what they were doing was helping the people?

[Upper Nan]

Depends on if they care more about 'the revolution ' or actual helping the people.

That's kind of a bogus way of putting it. You don't think that any of the ML revolutionaries thought that what they were doing was helping the people?

Tbf, Genivaria did say "care more," which implies they can still care about helping people, just to an inferior extant. You're point is still valid, though--as Hannah Arendt once pointed out, "for the greater good" has often been as an excuse to do horrendous things. Of course, there are some idiots who use that to try and argue that you should therefore never do anything to try and help other people (support a movement proclaiming to), but that's another discussion.

I think that where revolutionary socialism goes wrong is in the revolution, itself. By nature, they're kind of just saying, "Fuck everyone who's not working class, working class rise," since the entire point is overthrowing the capitalists. I think that class warfare, in either direction, solves nothing. I think Bernstein and the evolutionary socialists had it right, they tried to accomplish their goals without killing off thousands of people and to a large degree succeeded. Not so much in establishing socialism, but they did manage to drastically improve the lot of the lower class, which is what socialists claim is their main desire anyway.

[Fahran]

Here.

This looks like capitalism desperately trying to be socialist, but also trying not to be socialist, leading to failure.

Distributism isn't about the abolition of private enterprise. It's about creating enough material equality under private enterprise that all human beings are able to live with dignity and self-actualize. That's more important than public control of the means of production to anyone who isn't an ideologue. It's a good deal more radical than social democracy, but I suppose you view Denmark and Sweden as right-wing economic models.