Hungarian democracy in quarantine?

[Bulgar Rouge]

The EU won't exactly prosper with the morally (and soon fiscally) bankrupt Western ones either.

Now I don't want to sound like a nationalist, but Slovenia and to some extent the Czech Republic are the only Eastern European nations that are compatible with Western European countries and their values. We have always had the best industry, best education, best literature and are the most secular when compared to our misfortunate brothers in the East and South.

The problem is that the EU is all about nations who share similar values, sure you might say the EU is evil and such, and you have all the right to do so, but then don't beg for EU money. Hungary gets a shitton of cash from Brussels and in return they whine about how they have to respect freedoms, rights and equality. Fuck Hungary, all this money could go to countries which actually cooperate with the EU - like Slovenia. In the end it is not Germany or Hungary that gets fucked, but little old Slovenia. I'm completely okay with Hungary becoming Hanibal 2.0.1, but then please leave. Leave.

Not necessarily. The EU placates dictatorships (Erdogan, among others). Its bureaucracy is increasingly incompetent and incapable of handling even minor disputes between member states. It was looking at a pandemic in the making for three months, only to hold a "What to do" meeting just a few days ago and giving EU finance ministers two weeks to think of solutions to what's going on. So we're either talking about a complete lack of values, or the EU's values are appeasement of dictators, incompetence, a total absence of expediency, carelesness and a complete lack of professionalism. Not sure what is worse. Which brings me back to my previous point - moral bankruptcy is no foundation for a fair union of states. The fact that Hungary always gets reprimanded over corruption and rights violations while other, Brussels-friendly states with much worse records get commended, is a testament to this absolute vacuum of values.

As for that European cash: ceasing cohesion funds altogether would be wonderful - thousands of parasitic structures, front companies, desperate politicians and incompetent clerks would be left without a lifeline and a fair market economy can flourish instead. But eurocrats want to keep this lifeline going, so they can have selective accountability against disobedient states.

And about Hungary and its appereant liberalism. Slovenia stright-up allows piracy, nobody uses Netflix, because you watch everything for free on public Wi-Fi, drugs are de-facto legal, there are no blocked websites, our whole intelligence agency is on strike and is not persecuted, and yet Slovenia doesn't arrest its journalists, we have a rich multi-party democracy, non-biased public broadcasters and everything non-Hungary. So just fuck off with your Vatican propaganda.

ohhhhkaaay...

[Bear Stearns]

You are aware of the concept of a state of emergency right? It is completely normal and permitted in most democratic systems for the leadership to assume basically unlimited (although restricted by the constitution and specific laws regarding that exact situation) powers in situations of national emergency and suspend democracy until the situation is resolved. This is a no cause for alarm but a desirable feature and one being exploited by every sensible nation right now.

There is a time for debate, for freedom, for democracy and liberty and all that. But it's not when quick actions are required to stop people dying.

So how come every other nation on the planet is managing through this crisis without passing an indefinite and unlimited rule by decree power?

They aren't.

[Harkback Union]

You are aware of the concept of a state of emergency right? It is completely normal and permitted in most democratic systems for the leadership to assume basically unlimited (although restricted by the constitution and specific laws regarding that exact situation) powers in situations of national emergency and suspend democracy until the situation is resolved. This is a no cause for alarm but a desirable feature and one being exploited by every sensible nation right now.

There is a time for debate, for freedom, for democracy and liberty and all that. But it's not when quick actions are required to stop people dying.

So how come every other nation on the planet is managing through this crisis without passing an indefinite and unlimited rule by decree power?

Ever heard of executive orders? How about nuclear launch code?

Didn't trump have a diplomat murdered not that long ago? Did anybody vote on that?

Besides, this is not unlimited rule. In fact there is nothing he can do now he couldn't do before. Like I said, he already had the majority in the parliment and they voted on anything the party wanted. My guess is that the party members were worried about going to work, paranoid about the virus or just simply being lazy. They'd rather let Orban sort this one out on his own. Laws and the constitution still apply to him. He can't make any kind of decision, he can't have people murdered for example.

He also won't be reelected if he fucks this up. People in this country are not the smartest on politics and there is plenty of brainwashing going on, but they are also quick to get disillusioned and abandon their loyalties. The traditional party of the "left" (actually neo-liberals) screwed up the 2008 crisis and are an insignificant fringe since, and they were not the only major party to bite the dust because of handling something poorly. Orban nows this, that's why he made such a big deal out of the migrants, even though none of them wanted to come to hungary, and that's why he makes a big deal out of the virus.

[Baltenstein]

So how come every other nation on the planet is managing through this crisis without passing an indefinite and unlimited rule by decree power?

Ever heard of executive orders? How about nuclear launch code?

Didn't trump have a diplomat murdered not that long ago? Did anybody vote on that?

Besides, this is not unlimited rule. In fact there is nothing he can do now he couldn't do before. Like I said, he already had the majority in the parliment and they voted on anything the party wanted. My guess is that the party members were worried about going to work, paranoid about the virus or just simply being lazy. They'd rather let Orban sort this one out on his own. Laws and the constitution still apply to him. He can't make any kind of decision, he can't have people murdered for example.

He also won't be reelected if he fucks this up. People in this country are not the smartest on politics and there is plenty of brainwashing going on, but they are also quick to get disillusioned and abandon their loyalties. The traditional party of the "left" (actually neo-liberals) screwed up the 2008 crisis and are an insignificant fringe since, and they were not the only major party to bite the dust because of handling something poorly.

Is this the party whose main guy accidentaly went on record ranting about how he and his government "totally fucked up" the country or something like that?

[Harkback Union]

Now I don't want to sound like a nationalist, but Slovenia and to some extent the Czech Republic are the only Eastern European nations that are compatible with Western European countries and their values. We have always had the best industry, best education, best literature and are the most secular when compared to our misfortunate brothers in the East and South.

The problem is that the EU is all about nations who share similar values, sure you might say the EU is evil and such, and you have all the right to do so, but then don't beg for EU money. Hungary gets a shitton of cash from Brussels and in return they whine about how they have to respect freedoms, rights and equality. Fuck Hungary, all this money could go to countries which actually cooperate with the EU - like Slovenia. In the end it is not Germany or Hungary that gets fucked, but little old Slovenia. I'm completely okay with Hungary becoming Hanibal 2.0.1, but then please leave. Leave.

Not necessarily. The EU placates dictatorships (Erdogan, among others). Its bureaucracy is increasingly incompetent and incapable of handling even minor disputes between member states. It was looking at a pandemic in the making for three months, only to hold a "What to do" meeting just a few days ago and giving EU finance ministers two weeks to think of solutions to what's going on. So we're either talking about a complete lack of values, or the EU's values are appeasement of dictators, incompetence, a total absence of expediency, carelesness and a complete lack of professionalism. Not sure what is worse. Which brings me back to my previous point - moral bankruptcy is no foundation for a fair union of states. The fact that Hungary always gets reprimanded over corruption and rights violations while other, Brussels-friendly states with much worse records get commended, is a testament to this absolute vacuum of values.

As for that European cash: ceasing cohesion funds altogether would be wonderful - thousands of parasitic structures, front companies, desperate politicians and incompetent clerks would be left without a lifeline and a fair market economy can flourish instead. But eurocrats want to keep this lifeline going, so they can have selective accountability against disobedient states.

And about Hungary and its appereant liberalism. Slovenia stright-up allows piracy, nobody uses Netflix, because you watch everything for free on public Wi-Fi, drugs are de-facto legal, there are no blocked websites, our whole intelligence agency is on strike and is not persecuted, and yet Slovenia doesn't arrest its journalists, we have a rich multi-party democracy, non-biased public broadcasters and everything non-Hungary. So just fuck off with your Vatican propaganda.

ohhhhkaaay...

Hungary is actually also a piracy hub, no websites blocked, people dont go to jail for minor drug offense. In fact there is very little difference between us 2. Same post-soviet systems. Corporations here hold no power to enforce their shitty neo-liberalism.

[Bulgar Rouge]

Hungary is actually also a piracy hub, no websites blocked, people dont go to jail for minor drug offense. In fact there is very little difference between us 2. Same post-soviet systems. Corporations here hold no power to enforce their shitty neo-liberalism.

Hey, we have piracy too! Oh wait.

[San Lumen]

Did the PM of Hungary, Viktor Orban, just use COVID-19 to pull a Palpatine?

Looks like democracy there has gone into quarantine. Prominent voices in the EU are now calling for the country’s ejection from the Union (uncharted territory). Like an unhappy marriage, this issue has been building for years, it’s not a one-off event, and I believe Orban knew exactly the reaction it would provoke.

Guardian Article:

Hungary’s parliament has passed a new set of coronavirus measures that includes jail terms for spreading misinformation and gives no clear time limit to a state of emergency that allows the nationalist prime minister, Viktor Orbán, to rule by decree.
Parliament voted by 137 to 53 to pass the measures on Monday afternoon, with the two-thirds majority enjoyed by Orbán’s Fidesz party enough to push them through in spite of opposition from other parties, which had demanded a time limit or sunset clause on the legislation.
The bill introduces jail terms of up to five years for intentionally spreading misinformation that hinders the government response to the pandemic, leading to fears that it could be used to censor or self-censor criticism of the government response.

Source.

They should expel them. Im honestly not surprised this happened. It was likely only a matter of time before Hungary went full dictatorship.

[Aureumterra]

Orban's gone too far this time.

I must say, I admired Orban when I first started looking into Hungarian politics a few years ago.

Especially because despite him being somewhat of an authoritarian, his economic and social stances are exactly what I like, but even I'd agree with you now.

Economically he’s one of those people that wants the "proletariat" to own the "bourgeois," while I admire his work in stopping the flood of refugees, I cannot bring myself to like his economic stances

[Salus Maior]

He will lay down those powers once the crisis has been abated.

There's no reason to think he won't -it's not like he's not a powerhungry populist and more importantly a politician.

Then perhaps we should wait until that point, where emergency powers are no longer needed, to harshly judge Hungary.

Because they're just doing what a lot of countries are doing out of necessity.

[The Two Jerseys]

I for one welcome our new kormányzó and look forward to the Habsburg restoration.

[Salus Maior]

I for one welcome our new kormányzó and look forward to the Habsburg restoration.

Hungarian Nationalists tend not to uphold their loyalty to the Habsburg crown.

*stares at Horthy*

[Harkback Union]

I for one welcome our new kormányzó and look forward to the Habsburg restoration.

Hungarian Nationalists tend not to uphold their loyalty to the Habsburg crown.

*stares at Horthy*

Yeah, he wasn't all that popular, but a restoration was very, very close to success not long after the monarchy's breakup.

[Salus Maior]

Hungarian Nationalists tend not to uphold their loyalty to the Habsburg crown.

*stares at Horthy*

Yeah, he wasn't all that popular, but a restoration was very, very close to success not long after the monarchy's breakup.

Yes, thanks to Horthy.

[The Two Jerseys]

I for one welcome our new kormányzó and look forward to the Habsburg restoration.

Hungarian Nationalists tend not to uphold their loyalty to the Habsburg crown.

*stares at Horthy*

That was more Horthy trying to prevent the British and French from wiping the floor with Hungary.

[Costa Fierro]

Going to jail for misinformation? That's fantastic. Good on the Hungarians.

[San Lumen]

There's no reason to think he won't -it's not like he's not a powerhungry populist and more importantly a politician.

Then perhaps we should wait until that point, where emergency powers are no longer needed, to harshly judge Hungary.

Because they're just doing what a lot of countries are doing out of necessity.

Chancellor Palpatine gave up his emergency powers too.

[Salus Maior]

Then perhaps we should wait until that point, where emergency powers are no longer needed, to harshly judge Hungary.

Because they're just doing what a lot of countries are doing out of necessity.

Chancellor Palpatine gave up his emergency powers too.

Palpatine isn't real. He's from a set of movies about space monks.

[San Lumen]

Chancellor Palpatine gave up his emergency powers too.

Palpatine isn't real. He's from a set of movies about space monks.

You clearly missed the point of what I said

[Salus Maior]

Palpatine isn't real. He's from a set of movies about space monks.

You clearly missed the point of what I said

That you're relying on science fantasy as an indicator of how real people act?

[Nakena]

Palpatine isn't real. He's from a set of movies about space monks.

You clearly missed the point of what I said

There also no such thing as the Sith or any Dark Powers that try to take over the Earth or various nations. It's all just fiction. ^^

[San Lumen]

You clearly missed the point of what I said

That you're relying on science fantasy as an indicator of how real people act?

What I was saying was once emergency powers are utilized or given they are rarely given up so quickly if at all

[Salus Maior]

That you're relying on science fantasy as an indicator of how real people act?

What I was saying was once emergency powers are utilized or given they are rarely given up so quickly if at all

And you didn't use any real world examples. You used a fantasy movie example.

[Risottia]

Didn't Macron basically get these same powers in France?

Urgency or emergency decrees must always be converted into law by the Parliament in a short time limit or be nullified.
This is rather different.

[The Narnian Council]

Not necessarily. The EU placates dictatorships (Erdogan, among others)...The fact that Hungary always gets reprimanded over corruption and rights violations while other, Brussels-friendly states with much worse records get commended, is a testament to this absolute vacuum of values.

False equivalence. Its true that refugee aid organisations in Turkey get EU funding (although Erdogan complains it is far too little), but the EU is basically saying "deal with it yourself" to Erdogan regarding the Idlib crisis and the worsening of the refugee situation. The EU-Turkey refugee deal is dead. Moreover, the EU accession process for Turkey is all but dead. Hungary, on the other hand, enjoys membership and relatively MASSIVE amounts of EU funding (6 billion euros in 2018, which is 5% of the country's economy).

Not As for that European cash: ceasing cohesion funds altogether would be wonderful...But eurocrats want to keep this lifeline going, so they can have selective accountability against disobedient states.

Not true. Net contributors are always looking to keep cohesion funds to a minimum, especially after Britain's departure. The priorities for the next budget is still highly contested and by no means certain. Moreover, linking cohesion funds to rule of law is still a very controversial idea, it has certainly not been implemented, and the threat of it from Macron has done nothing to deter Hungary and Poland from running headlong into anti-liberalism.

I believe your apparently very negative opinion of the EU is clouding your ability to dispassionately judge the facts here.

[Moscareinas]

to answer the op's question: yes, what did you expect?

this has always been in the cards for orban and fidesz

more at fault here are the mass of magyars laying supine as their country is ravaged by authoritarians, barely two decades after they managed to get back a functional democracy -- but i guess as long as it's a fellow magyar, it's ok?