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Groveling to save lives

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:27 pm
by Zapato
While this does use Trump as a starting point for discussion, it's not supposed to be about Trump. He has his own thread over here.

Now, as you may or may not have heard, Trump recently said he had instructed Vice President Pence not to reach out to governors who aren’t “appreciative” of his administration’s efforts, despite the ongoing pandemic and that lives are on the line.

“If they don’t treat you right, I don’t call,” Trump said of state leaders, such as Inslee and Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, both Democrats. “I think they should be appreciative. We’ve done a great job.”


So here's the moral dilemma:
Imagine you are a governor or mayor or in a similar position of power. Would you suck up to the leader of your nation, praise him lavishly, offer no criticism or dissent, attribute every good thing to him and every bad thing to his foes, and agree with all his lies, if doing so is necessary got get aid that saves lives?

Or would you stand on your principles and tell truth to power while attempting to work around him (or her), within or outside the system?

Personally, I lean towards the former, but I don't think I have the power to do it with a straight face and without my frustrations boiling over, and that would probably do more harm then good as it could be seen as dishonest by the leader.

What about you?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:28 pm
by Zapato
Also, would you do it if something lesser was at stake? Like a payrise at your company?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:29 pm
by Purpelia
Honestly Trump is right in this case. He has limited resources at his disposal and thus needs to allocate them where he knows they will be used well. And the best proof they will be used well is for the people in charge of using them to show deference to his administration and in doing so demonstrate that they will in fact use them in ways he instructs. Him self in turn being presumably instructed by experts.

So yes, the only sane and sensible thing to do in such a position is to call Trump up and say: "Thank you for sending the money. Until this crisis is over we shall suspend partisan politics and work together." And frankly that is what the man wants. Not groveling.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:31 pm
by Otira
Purpelia wrote:And the best proof they will be used well is for the people in charge of using them to show deference to his administration and in doing so demonstrate that they will in fact use them in ways he instructs.

I...

The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration.

... see.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:34 pm
by Purpelia
Otira wrote:
Purpelia wrote:And the best proof they will be used well is for the people in charge of using them to show deference to his administration and in doing so demonstrate that they will in fact use them in ways he instructs.

I...

The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration.

... see.

I am being genuine here.

He has limited resources to use to save lives. And as the president of the richest country on earth he has the best experts possible to tell him what measures need to be imposed. He also happens to be ruling over a nation whose political system is frankly broken to the point where people are willing to go to extremes just to spite the other side. So forcing people to sit down, shut up and do as they are told and be nice while doing it is a sensible approach to the situation. He simply has to find a way to force local authorities to obey him. Else corpses will start piling up.

If it were me I'd have already imposed martial law on the whole union and called it a day. But he seems to be content to just scare them strait.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:35 pm
by Albrenia
Fuck it. I'd grovel to the manchild to save lives, even if it makes his reelection chances stronger.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:38 pm
by United Muscovite Nations
Criticism can come when I am no longer responsible for lives. If I must grovel to save the lives of others, than I shall grovel.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:40 pm
by Cisairse
Purpelia wrote:
Otira wrote:I...


... see.

I am being genuine here.

He has limited resources to use to save lives. And as the president of the richest country on earth he has the best experts possible to tell him what measures need to be imposed. He also happens to be ruling over a nation whose political system is frankly broken to the point where people are willing to go to extremes just to spite the other side. So forcing people to sit down, shut up and do as they are told and be nice while doing it is a sensible approach to the situation. He simply has to find a way to force local authorities to obey him. Else corpses will start piling up.

If it were me I'd have already imposed martial law on the whole union and called it a day. But he seems to be content to just scare them strait.


Actually most of the "best experts possible" became bluechecks on Twitter after Trump fired them in '18.

Also, the limited resources owned by the states is partly because Trump outbid states to purchase supplies which he now is trying to use to gain favors from Democratic governors.

To quote Donald Trump himself (circa last week): "It's called leverage."

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:42 pm
by Zapato
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Criticism can come when I am no longer responsible for lives. If I must grovel to save the lives of others, than I shall grovel.

Of course, it’s not a given that the grovelling will pay off. It may be deemed insufficient, or the leadership might either not have it at hand (despite what they say) or prioritise others (more loyalists) above you.

But it’s a chance you’ll have to take.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:47 pm
by Albrenia
Zapato wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Criticism can come when I am no longer responsible for lives. If I must grovel to save the lives of others, than I shall grovel.

Of course, it’s not a given that the grovelling will pay off. It may be deemed insufficient, or the leadership might either not have it at hand (despite what they say) or prioritise others (more loyalists) above you.

But it’s a chance you’ll have to take.


Indeed. It's one of those cases where one is well 'over-the-barrel', so to speak.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:04 pm
by Rojava Free State
Purpelia wrote:Honestly Trump is right in this case. He has limited resources at his disposal and thus needs to allocate them where he knows they will be used well. And the best proof they will be used well is for the people in charge of using them to show deference to his administration and in doing so demonstrate that they will in fact use them in ways he instructs. Him self in turn being presumably instructed by experts.

So yes, the only sane and sensible thing to do in such a position is to call Trump up and say: "Thank you for sending the money. Until this crisis is over we shall suspend partisan politics and work together." And frankly that is what the man wants. Not groveling.


Witholding resources unless people grovel to you isn't right. The goal is to save lives which otherwise may be lost if Trump decides to be an evil bastard like always and withold supplies.

I live in a state he threatened to withold aid from. This guy is a terrible president and an even worse person.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:06 pm
by Moscareinas
So, this is a thread. Very well.

So let us analyze the choices the OP has left for us, using me as the man in the middle, yes?

First, the headpats por favor: not acceptable. Not only will I not be able to pull off such groveling before the fucking worst humanity has to offer, that rat-assed bastard will stay on and do the worst he can for as long as he can. Prolong the suffering towards others for your fucking benefit? Fuck that shit. Fuuuuuuuuuck that shiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

Last, truth to power! Attractive, but not enough -- all you'll be doing then is to grandstand, to make this about you and that abysmal asshole, not the millions who need your help and who you want to help -- and that nutcase who gave up his own humanity for more power, for more suffering, for more of every negative value! So fuck that shit even more so, for it is a selfìsh act wrapped up in a mantle of magnanimity -- a passable political act in less batshit times, but not with a demon in human form at the helm, so really, fucccccccccccck that sheeeeeeeeeeeettttttt.

So we have two choices, discredited for their selfishness. So what more do we have?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:08 pm
by Albrenia
Rojava Free State wrote:I live in a state he threatened to withold aid from. This guy is a terrible president and an even worse person.


You are quite correct.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:09 pm
by Drongonia
Yes, they should grovel. Not because Trump is right in forcing them to, but because there are lives at stake here. If you as a governor aren't willing to put your own pride down for a sec and praise the president regardless of how you feel, then you're just as bad as him (if not worse).

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:10 pm
by Kathol Rift
Everybody keeps saying grovel. I do not think grovel is the proper word here. Here is how you are making it sound like trump is doing:
“I have emergency supplies, and I will give you emergency supplies if you grovel to me.”
Now let’s try rewording that. We’re only replacing the word grovel:
“I have emergency supplies, and I will give you emergency supplies if you just cooperate with me on this.”
See? Now, rethink your answer to the question. He’s not asking them to grovel, he’s just asking them to stop attacking him and cooperate with him for a while so everyone can deal with the crisis together.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:11 pm
by Jabberwocky
Trump wants everyone to kiss his butt and tell him what a great guy he is for the privilege.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:12 pm
by Moscareinas
Drongonia wrote:Yes, they should grovel. Not because Trump is right in forcing them to, but because there are lives at stake here. If you as a governor aren't willing to put your own pride down for a sec and praise the president regardless of how you feel, then you're just as bad as him (if not worse).


No, you're just as bad as he is, if for an entirely different reason: you keep that fucking prick in power, the better so he can inflict even more damage, even more suffering, even more chaos, so people you govern benefit. Selfish shit.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:15 pm
by Albrenia
Kathol Rift wrote:Everybody keeps saying grovel. I do not think grovel is the proper word here. Here is how you are making it sound like trump is doing:
“I have emergency supplies, and I will give you emergency supplies if you grovel to me.”
Now let’s try rewording that. We’re only replacing the word grovel:
“I have emergency supplies, and I will give you emergency supplies if you just cooperate with me on this.”
See? Now, rethink your answer to the question. He’s not asking them to grovel, he’s just asking them to stop attacking him and cooperate with him for a while so everyone can deal with the crisis together.


Please, everyone's trying to fight the pandemic, even those who say 'Fuck you Trump' while doing so.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:16 pm
by Moscareinas
Kathol Rift wrote:Everybody keeps saying grovel. I do not think grovel is the proper word here. Here is how you are making it sound like trump is doing:
“I have emergency supplies, and I will give you emergency supplies if you grovel to me.”
Now let’s try rewording that. We’re only replacing the word grovel:
“I have emergency supplies, and I will give you emergency supplies if you just cooperate with me on this.”
See? Now, rethink your answer to the question. He’s not asking them to grovel, he’s just asking them to stop attacking him and cooperate with him for a while so everyone can deal with the crisis together.


What are the chances the instructions of such a fuckedup fuckup will be anywhere near beneficent? None, of course -- he will think about everything other than the altruistic angle, if indeed if crosses the depths of his mind at all. It will be him, him, him, fuck him, fuck him, fuck him. For him to have contemplated his grisly calculus, he would have to have planned for further outrages to humanity, all for his benefit, his pleasure, his kicks.

So fuck him.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:17 pm
by Albrenia
Moscareinas wrote:
Drongonia wrote:Yes, they should grovel. Not because Trump is right in forcing them to, but because there are lives at stake here. If you as a governor aren't willing to put your own pride down for a sec and praise the president regardless of how you feel, then you're just as bad as him (if not worse).


No, you're just as bad as he is, if for an entirely different reason: you keep that fucking prick in power, the better so he can inflict even more damage, even more suffering, even more chaos, so people you govern benefit. Selfish shit.


I'd rather save people at the cost of boosting Trump's ego than deny him that boost at the cost of lives.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:18 pm
by Cisairse
Kathol Rift wrote:Everybody keeps saying grovel. I do not think grovel is the proper word here. Here is how you are making it sound like trump is doing:
“I have emergency supplies, and I will give you emergency supplies if you grovel to me.”
Now let’s try rewording that. We’re only replacing the word grovel:
“I have emergency supplies, and I will give you emergency supplies if you just cooperate with me on this.”
See? Now, rethink your answer to the question. He’s not asking them to grovel, he’s just asking them to stop attacking him and cooperate with him for a while so everyone can deal with the crisis together.


Nah, he's asking them to grovel.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:20 pm
by Moscareinas
Albrenia wrote:
Moscareinas wrote:
No, you're just as bad as he is, if for an entirely different reason: you keep that fucking prick in power, the better so he can inflict even more damage, even more suffering, even more chaos, so people you govern benefit. Selfish shit.


I'd rather save people at the cost of boosting Trump's ego than deny him that boost at the cost of lives.


That will only prolong the agony, the misgovernment, to more and more people over time. No, fuck that shit.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:23 pm
by Rojava Free State
Kathol Rift wrote:Everybody keeps saying grovel. I do not think grovel is the proper word here. Here is how you are making it sound like trump is doing:
“I have emergency supplies, and I will give you emergency supplies if you grovel to me.”
Now let’s try rewording that. We’re only replacing the word grovel:
“I have emergency supplies, and I will give you emergency supplies if you just cooperate with me on this.”
See? Now, rethink your answer to the question. He’s not asking them to grovel, he’s just asking them to stop attacking him and cooperate with him for a while so everyone can deal with the crisis together.


No, he's telling them to stop demanding more supplies, and saying he deserves respect. Literally who thinks it's disrespectful when a governor says they need more supplies?

If we did things that way, people would die. Thank God someone strong armed trump into cutting the bullshit, acting like an adult for once, and giving the states supplies.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:27 pm
by Moscareinas
Guys, if we don't want this to be just an extension of the Trump thread, we gotta turn the villain of this thread into a tyrannical everyman: not just Trump, not just Xi, not just Kim, not just any single authoritarian fuckwad with the power to maim and kill for fucking headpats, but all of them.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:29 pm
by Rojava Free State
Moscareinas wrote:Guys, if we don't want this to be just an extension of the Trump thread, we gotta turn the villain of this thread into a tyrannical everyman: not just Trump, not just Xi, not just Kim, not just any single authoritarian fuckwad with the power to maim and kill for fucking headpats, but all of them.


Oh god, no. Not...Not Lmao Zedong!