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Groveling to save lives

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
Senator
 
Posts: 4236
Founded: Apr 05, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:44 am

Dishonesty got us into this mess. Only more honesty could get us out of it.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Albrenia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:49 am

So, after reading through this thread and thinking a little, I think I've changed my mind.

Perhaps it is possible to avoid feeding into Trump's little game without endangering lives. Publicly say you need the machines, make a really big deal about it and the urgency of the need while neither grovelling for them nor being openly defiant. Put the ball in Trump's court with a direct, urgent request while trying to also gather as many machines as one can with one's own resources.

That might work, maybe? Trump might even be more likely to deliver machines to avoid looking bad, as opposed to just 'rewarding' a good grovelling session from an opponent.

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Zapato
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Founded: Dec 06, 2012
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Zapato » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:24 am

Albrenia wrote:So, after reading through this thread and thinking a little, I think I've changed my mind.

Perhaps it is possible to avoid feeding into Trump's little game without endangering lives. Publicly say you need the machines, make a really big deal about it and the urgency of the need while neither grovelling for them nor being openly defiant. Put the ball in Trump's court with a direct, urgent request while trying to also gather as many machines as one can with one's own resources.

That might work, maybe? Trump might even be more likely to deliver machines to avoid looking bad, as opposed to just 'rewarding' a good grovelling session from an opponent.

What if the leader doesn't care about looking bad, tho? If he or she dismisses any bad press simply as "fake news", or attempts to shift the blame back on you - you should have done this yourself, instead of just sitting at home screaming for the Leader to come help you.


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Albrenia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:29 am

Zapato wrote:
Albrenia wrote:So, after reading through this thread and thinking a little, I think I've changed my mind.

Perhaps it is possible to avoid feeding into Trump's little game without endangering lives. Publicly say you need the machines, make a really big deal about it and the urgency of the need while neither grovelling for them nor being openly defiant. Put the ball in Trump's court with a direct, urgent request while trying to also gather as many machines as one can with one's own resources.

That might work, maybe? Trump might even be more likely to deliver machines to avoid looking bad, as opposed to just 'rewarding' a good grovelling session from an opponent.

What if the leader doesn't care about looking bad, tho? If he or she dismisses any bad press simply as "fake news", or attempts to shift the blame back on you - you should have done this yourself, instead of just sitting at home screaming for the Leader to come help you.


That's why you do everything in your own power to help your people regardless of what the leader does. It's hard to say Trump would reward Democrats who grovel anyway, since things are so divided in the US.

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Nakena
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Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:31 am

The problem with Trump is that he has Histrionic personality disorder:

Mnemonic

A mnemonic that can be used to remember the characteristics of histrionic personality disorder is shortened as "PRAISE ME":[8][9]

Provocative (or seductive) behavior
Relationships are considered more intimate than they actually are
Attention-seeking
Influenced easily by others or circumstances
Speech (style) wants to impress; lacks detail
Emotional lability; shallowness
Make-up; physical appearance is used to draw attention to self
Exaggerated emotions; theatrical


Additional characteristics may include:

Exhibitionist behavior
Constant seeking of reassurance or approval
Excessive sensitivity to criticism or disapproval
Pride of own personality and unwillingness to change, viewing any change as a threat
Inappropriately seductive appearance or behavior of a sexual nature
Using factitious somatic symptoms (of physical illness) or psychological disorders to garner attention
A need to be the center of attention
Low tolerance for frustration or delayed gratification
Rapidly shifting emotional states that may appear superficial or exaggerated to others
Tendency to believe that relationships are more intimate than they actually are
Making rash decisions[4]
Blaming personal failures or disappointments on others
Being easily influenced by others, especially those who treat them approvingly
Being overly dramatic and emotional[5]
Influenced by the suggestions of others[6]


Full sauce: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrioni ... d_symptoms

Sounds familiar eh?

That means he will follow whatever gives him the most praise, specifically by sources he values and thinks to be important. (i.e. FoxNews, CNN etc.) So if those cable news talk about how important it is to institute Lockdowns and harsh measures etc, he will do that (as he did) when they start bitching about how bad the lockdown is, he will promising to open up things again etc etc.

So it goes on and on. The problem the influences the President is getting from media, individuals etc are almost impossible to control, adding to his unpredictable behaviour. To push him constantly onto a certain line, all those influences would have to coordinated and orchestrated. Which is also not easy to pull.

You can make your own conclusions.
Last edited by Nakena on Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:34 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Ethel mermania
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:50 am

Forgetting the line of crap this OP starts with and just discussing the basic principle.

Yes I would grovel to save lives, I will stick the shiv in the guy making me grovel side when I have an oppertunity later.

First things, first.
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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:58 am

Ethel mermania wrote:Forgetting the line of crap this OP starts with and just discussing the basic principle.

Yes I would grovel to save lives, I will stick the shiv in the guy making me grovel side when I have an oppertunity later.

First things, first.


If you do that literally, you get arrested. If metaphorically, you're not able to, because you already handed him everything he needs to maintain and grow his power. You have to hard counter the tactic by putting public pressure on him to stop playing political games and save lives.
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Greed and Death
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Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Greed and Death » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:33 am

Albrenia wrote:Fuck it. I'd grovel to the manchild to save lives, even if it makes his reelection chances stronger.


Trump the first President to be given bipartisan support by governors of the many states.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
Barack Obama

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
Senator
 
Posts: 4236
Founded: Apr 05, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:42 am

Question: Have we really established that legitimizing dishonesty won't just get more people killed in the long run?
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Greed and Death
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Posts: 51478
Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Greed and Death » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:44 am

Albrenia wrote:So, after reading through this thread and thinking a little, I think I've changed my mind.

Perhaps it is possible to avoid feeding into Trump's little game without endangering lives. Publicly say you need the machines, make a really big deal about it and the urgency of the need while neither grovelling for them nor being openly defiant. Put the ball in Trump's court with a direct, urgent request while trying to also gather as many machines as one can with one's own resources.

That might work, maybe? Trump might even be more likely to deliver machines to avoid looking bad, as opposed to just 'rewarding' a good grovelling session from an opponent.


Keep NYC on lock down long enough and the country folk in upstate could give trump the state in November.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
Barack Obama

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Greed and Death
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Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Greed and Death » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:51 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Dishonesty got us into this mess. Only more honesty could get us out of it.

Two lies make a truth.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
Barack Obama

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Rojava Free State
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:56 am

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/n-y-c ... ?ocid=AMZN

So I just read this story and I gotta say, it only made me more pissed at Trump. I'm used to Trump saying stupid shit like "This may be the wettest hurricane we've ever seen, at least from the standpoint of water," but what he's suggesting now is downright evil. I think Trump takes pleasure making his rivals beg him for mercy, and when peoples lives are at stake, that's bullshit. If Trump doesn't send enough ventilators or masks to the states, thousands of people will lose their lives. He would be responsible for condemning thousands to their deaths because of his grudge with a governor. It isn't even about who the states themselves voted for, because my state went for Trump in 2016 and because he can't just deal with Gretchen Whitmer, he has threatened to basically indirectly kill thousands of people in my state. We've said before that Trump doesn't act presidential but this is more than just unpresidential. It's inhumane, it's despicable, it's unbelievably and meaninglessly cruel and it will hurt innocent people. If anyone here still wasn't convinced that Trump was a monster after four years of his crap, here's some more evidence that he is.
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
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Rojava Free State
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:58 am

The Lone Alliance wrote:I have to wonder if the Hurricane Maria Puerto Rico relief aid scandal is what helped convince him the stupid idea?

What does Trump really think that the Democratic governors would willingly take the aid, hide it, then let their own people die simply to fuck him over?


Moscareinas wrote:SNIP

You want to try to overthrow the US government in a midst of a viral crisis, and you actually think the general population would side with you simply out of hatred of Trump?


I guess Trump assumes that everyone is like him. He would clearly be willing to let people die just to make someone else look bad, so I think other people are as sociopathic as him and would do the same.
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
Hurdergaryp wrote:Humanity keeps seeing itself as the crown of creation, but to this world we're a crown of thorns at best.


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Weaponized EMP Monopolies
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Founded: Feb 19, 2014
Corporate Police State

Postby Weaponized EMP Monopolies » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:01 am

Rojava Free State wrote:https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/n-y-c-s-911-system-is-overwhelmed-i-m-terrified-a-paramedic-says/ar-BB11QwEv?ocid=AMZN

So I just read this story and I gotta say, it only made me more pissed at Trump. I'm used to Trump saying stupid shit like "This may be the wettest hurricane we've ever seen, at least from the standpoint of water," but what he's suggesting now is downright evil. I think Trump takes pleasure making his rivals beg him for mercy, and when peoples lives are at stake, that's bullshit. If Trump doesn't send enough ventilators or masks to the states, thousands of people will lose their lives. He would be responsible for condemning thousands to their deaths because of his grudge with a governor. It isn't even about who the states themselves voted for, because my state went for Trump in 2016 and because he can't just deal with Gretchen Whitmer, he has threatened to basically indirectly kill thousands of people in my state. We've said before that Trump doesn't act presidential but this is more than just unpresidential. It's inhumane, it's despicable, it's unbelievably and meaninglessly cruel and it will hurt innocent people. If anyone here still wasn't convinced that Trump was a monster after four years of his crap, here's some more evidence that he is.


people who aren't convinced, at this point, either believe every piece of news critical of the administration is written by cultural marxists with acid for blood or are reassured in their position by trump in his natural state, i.e. being a psychopath
Last edited by Weaponized EMP Monopolies on Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rojava Free State
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:32 am

Weaponized EMP Monopolies wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/n-y-c-s-911-system-is-overwhelmed-i-m-terrified-a-paramedic-says/ar-BB11QwEv?ocid=AMZN

So I just read this story and I gotta say, it only made me more pissed at Trump. I'm used to Trump saying stupid shit like "This may be the wettest hurricane we've ever seen, at least from the standpoint of water," but what he's suggesting now is downright evil. I think Trump takes pleasure making his rivals beg him for mercy, and when peoples lives are at stake, that's bullshit. If Trump doesn't send enough ventilators or masks to the states, thousands of people will lose their lives. He would be responsible for condemning thousands to their deaths because of his grudge with a governor. It isn't even about who the states themselves voted for, because my state went for Trump in 2016 and because he can't just deal with Gretchen Whitmer, he has threatened to basically indirectly kill thousands of people in my state. We've said before that Trump doesn't act presidential but this is more than just unpresidential. It's inhumane, it's despicable, it's unbelievably and meaninglessly cruel and it will hurt innocent people. If anyone here still wasn't convinced that Trump was a monster after four years of his crap, here's some more evidence that he is.


people who aren't convinced, at this point, either believe every piece of news critical of the administration is written by cultural marxists with acid for blood or are reassured in their position by trump in his natural state, i.e. being a psychopath


I'm past forgiveness for his fans at this point. It seems like whenever Trump does something awful, instead of them doing the right thing and saying "I was wrong for voting this guy in and this is my fault," they just keep applauding like mindless puppets. As far as I'm concerned, if trump's actions kill people, anyone who voted for this clown is to blame, because they should have seen the warning signs when this guy was up their onstage going "you know the second amendment people, maybe there's something that they can do."
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
Hurdergaryp wrote:Humanity keeps seeing itself as the crown of creation, but to this world we're a crown of thorns at best.


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Greed and Death
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Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Greed and Death » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:38 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Weaponized EMP Monopolies wrote:
people who aren't convinced, at this point, either believe every piece of news critical of the administration is written by cultural marxists with acid for blood or are reassured in their position by trump in his natural state, i.e. being a psychopath


I'm past forgiveness for his fans at this point. It seems like whenever Trump does something awful, instead of them doing the right thing and saying "I was wrong for voting this guy in and this is my fault," they just keep applauding like mindless puppets. As far as I'm concerned, if trump's actions kill people, anyone who voted for this clown is to blame, because they should have seen the warning signs when this guy was up their onstage going "you know the second amendment people, maybe there's something that they can do."


It sounds like you want your region cut off from medical aid ?
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
Barack Obama

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Rojava Free State
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Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:44 am

Greed and Death wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
I'm past forgiveness for his fans at this point. It seems like whenever Trump does something awful, instead of them doing the right thing and saying "I was wrong for voting this guy in and this is my fault," they just keep applauding like mindless puppets. As far as I'm concerned, if trump's actions kill people, anyone who voted for this clown is to blame, because they should have seen the warning signs when this guy was up their onstage going "you know the second amendment people, maybe there's something that they can do."


It sounds like you want your region cut off from medical aid ?


I'm not the governor, and my opinion about the president should not hinge on whether he helps us or not. Kinda funny how I would never do this even to Florida, a state I absolutely despise, and yet hes gonna do it to several states because his feelings got hurt.
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
Hurdergaryp wrote:Humanity keeps seeing itself as the crown of creation, but to this world we're a crown of thorns at best.


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Greed and Death
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Greed and Death » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:28 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:
It sounds like you want your region cut off from medical aid ?


I'm not the governor, and my opinion about the president should not hinge on whether he helps us or not. Kinda funny how I would never do this even to Florida, a state I absolutely despise, and yet hes gonna do it to several states because his feelings got hurt.


don't worry Trump will not punish your entire state for your misdeeds. We will instead just cut off your city from supplies.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
Barack Obama

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Dumb Ideologies
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Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:38 am

It shouldn't be the way things are but if I can't do anything about the person in charge then it makes sense to take the hit so everyone else can enjoy the material benefits rather than getting caught up in my own pride. This is why I'd be a lousy movie protagonist.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:46 am

Trying to placate the ego of this Trump-esque imaginary president seems like a grossly ineffective way to secure for my people the resources they need to survive this pandemic. I can't possibly know how much ass kissing will be required, and there's no way that it won't be obviously coerced so it may be that no amount of ass-kissing would be sufficient. A better option would be to reach out to similarly situated governors and work together with them to get the resources we all need from somewhere else.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Coughing Etiquette That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:04 am

Ifreann wrote:Trying to placate the ego of this Trump-esque imaginary president seems like a grossly ineffective way to secure for my people the resources they need to survive this pandemic. I can't possibly know how much ass kissing will be required, and there's no way that it won't be obviously coerced so it may be that no amount of ass-kissing would be sufficient. A better option would be to reach out to similarly situated governors and work together with them to get the resources we all need from somewhere else.


They honestly should try to buy supplies from Canada, just to piss the embarrassment we have for a president off.
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
Hurdergaryp wrote:Humanity keeps seeing itself as the crown of creation, but to this world we're a crown of thorns at best.


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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:07 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Trying to placate the ego of this Trump-esque imaginary president seems like a grossly ineffective way to secure for my people the resources they need to survive this pandemic. I can't possibly know how much ass kissing will be required, and there's no way that it won't be obviously coerced so it may be that no amount of ass-kissing would be sufficient. A better option would be to reach out to similarly situated governors and work together with them to get the resources we all need from somewhere else.


They honestly should try to buy supplies from Canada, just to piss the embarrassment we have for a president off.

The primary concern is saving lives, not trolling the world's oldest toddler.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Coughing Etiquette That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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Greed and Death
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51478
Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Greed and Death » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:09 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Trying to placate the ego of this Trump-esque imaginary president seems like a grossly ineffective way to secure for my people the resources they need to survive this pandemic. I can't possibly know how much ass kissing will be required, and there's no way that it won't be obviously coerced so it may be that no amount of ass-kissing would be sufficient. A better option would be to reach out to similarly situated governors and work together with them to get the resources we all need from somewhere else.


They honestly should try to buy supplies from Canada, just to piss the embarrassment we have for a president off.


All trade and transit with Canada needs to be approved by Trump.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
Barack Obama

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Cisairse
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Posts: 8470
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:30 am

Albrenia wrote:So, after reading through this thread and thinking a little, I think I've changed my mind.

Perhaps it is possible to avoid feeding into Trump's little game without endangering lives. Publicly say you need the machines, make a really big deal about it and the urgency of the need while neither grovelling for them nor being openly defiant. Put the ball in Trump's court with a direct, urgent request while trying to also gather as many machines as one can with one's own resources.

That might work, maybe? Trump might even be more likely to deliver machines to avoid looking bad, as opposed to just 'rewarding' a good grovelling session from an opponent.


Trump doesn't care about looking bad in blue states, though.
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And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

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Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8470
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:32 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Question: Have we really established that legitimizing dishonesty won't just get more people killed in the long run?


No.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

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