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Groveling to save lives

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Xmara
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Postby Xmara » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:33 pm

I grovel to no one. I can be cooperative. I can compromise. But I do not grovel and never will.
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Albrenia
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Founded: Aug 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:33 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Moscareinas wrote:Guys, if we don't want this to be just an extension of the Trump thread, we gotta turn the villain of this thread into a tyrannical everyman: not just Trump, not just Xi, not just Kim, not just any single authoritarian fuckwad with the power to maim and kill for fucking headpats, but all of them.


Oh god, no. Not...Not Lmao Zedong!


My god... Lmao Zedong is a meme I can get behind.

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Rojava Free State
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Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:47 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
Oh god, no. Not...Not Lmao Zedong!


My god... Lmao Zedong is a meme I can get behind.


Lmao Zedong was one of the worst tyrants that never was. During his reign of terror in Bing Bing bong, Zedong murdered well over 420,000 people and had 69 of his advisors executed by hanging from their balls. Zedong was known for being a Kid Buu fan, something only a truly evil person could be, and even worse, his lean was actually just Zquil mixed with mountain dew. 0/10, worst leader ever.
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Farnhamia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:34 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
My god... Lmao Zedong is a meme I can get behind.


Lmao Zedong was one of the worst tyrants that never was. During his reign of terror in Bing Bing bong, Zedong murdered well over 420,000 people and had 69 of his advisors executed by hanging from their balls. Zedong was known for being a Kid Buu fan, something only a truly evil person could be, and even worse, his lean was actually just Zquil mixed with mountain dew. 0/10, worst leader ever.

0/10, not one of your best posts.
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US-SSR
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Corporate Police State

Postby US-SSR » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:43 pm

Trump cares about three things: Trump, Trump's image and Trump's interests. Appeasing such a narcissistic bully is as useless as teaching calculus to a donkey. He'd be no more likely to send a single face mask. If I were a state governor I would agree to such a phone call on one condition: that it be broadcast live on the largest television and radio networks in my state.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:48 pm

That a statesman has to appease this overgrown toddler’s ego in order to get help is immensely fucked as it is, and I can understand why a governor might think about telling him to fuck off. It’s ridiculous.

But if it’s about saving lives, I can be a hypocrite to appease this dipshit POTUS. Just until I get help for my constituents. After that he can go fuck himself.
Last edited by Nanatsu no Tsuki on Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:11 pm

Absolutely fucking not. People groveling to Trump is part of the problem as to why he's got such a fucking ego in the first damn place. Enabling his narcissism doesn't save lives.

If I was in charge of handling a situation like this and Trump had the gall to pull support from me because I called him out on his bullshit, then whatever deaths came from that are on him - not me. If I have to go around the Federal Government just to get things done then so fucking be it. My conscious is clean; he's the fuckwit getting people killed because he's a thin-skin snowflake. Let him rot in Hell.
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The Lone Alliance
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Founded: May 25, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Lone Alliance » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:49 pm

I wouldn't Grovel but I would support a truce against an ideological enemy in the face of a greater threat, and if as part of that Truce I have to make some weak show of support for said enemy I would be able to work with that after making sure everyone knows it's part of the truce.

But once the greater threat is removed, all bets are off.

Also if there's any information I gather that can be used against said enemy after the truce is over I will gather it.
Last edited by The Lone Alliance on Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Drongonia
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Founded: Feb 11, 2019
Corporate Bordello

Postby Drongonia » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:44 pm

Moscareinas wrote:No, you're just as bad as he is, if for an entirely different reason: you keep that fucking prick in power, the better so he can inflict even more damage, even more suffering, even more chaos, so people you govern benefit. Selfish shit.

Alright, so in your mind people dying now is okay because "fuck Trump", and it increases the likelihood he'd be voted out of office? Absolutely disgraceful and I think you should be ashamed of yourself.
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Moscareinas
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Founded: Dec 09, 2015
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Moscareinas » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:00 pm

Drongonia wrote:
Moscareinas wrote:No, you're just as bad as he is, if for an entirely different reason: you keep that fucking prick in power, the better so he can inflict even more damage, even more suffering, even more chaos, so people you govern benefit. Selfish shit.

Alright, so in your mind people dying now is okay because "fuck Trump", and it increases the likelihood he'd be voted out of office? Absolutely disgraceful and I think you should be ashamed of yourself.


You don't deal with an authoritarian as if he can be reasoned with or as if he cares about lives or indeed anything that can't be made up as part of his own delusions of grandeur, but you don't also play footy with the lives of innocents. So how to resolve this?

By overthrowing the entire system that has made that abyss of a madman and his heart of madness possible, that's how. This is a trolley problem only as long as you insist on treating it as one.

Fuck him directly, and if you and people who join you have to die to finally be rid of that walking dick, then so be it; at least people will finally get what they need without a certain deceased diseased motherfucker running interference and demanding headpats or else.

The alternatives presented by the OP pale before the above.
Last edited by Moscareinas on Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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The Lone Alliance
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Founded: May 25, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Lone Alliance » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:06 am

I have to wonder if the Hurricane Maria Puerto Rico relief aid scandal is what helped convince him the stupid idea?

What does Trump really think that the Democratic governors would willingly take the aid, hide it, then let their own people die simply to fuck him over?


Moscareinas wrote:SNIP

You want to try to overthrow the US government in a midst of a viral crisis, and you actually think the general population would side with you simply out of hatred of Trump?
Last edited by The Lone Alliance on Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -Herman Goering
--------------
War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; -William Tecumseh Sherman

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Albrenia
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Founded: Aug 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:08 am

The Lone Alliance wrote:I have to wonder if the Hurricane Maria Puerto Rico relief aid scandal is what helped convince him the stupid idea?

What does Trump really think that the Democratic governors would willingly take the aid, hide it, then let their own people die simply to fuck him over?


I guess if one believes everything revolves around oneself, then one's enemies oppose you simply for the sake of opposing you.

I hope even President Trump isn't quite that stupid, though.

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Che Triumphant
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Posts: 24
Founded: May 06, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Che Triumphant » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:11 am

Purpelia wrote:Honestly Trump is right in this case. He has limited resources at his disposal and thus needs to allocate them where he knows they will be used well. And the best proof they will be used well is for the people in charge of using them to show deference to his administration and in doing so demonstrate that they will in fact use them in ways he instructs. Him self in turn being presumably instructed by experts.

So yes, the only sane and sensible thing to do in such a position is to call Trump up and say: "Thank you for sending the money. Until this crisis is over we shall suspend partisan politics and work together." And frankly that is what the man wants. Not groveling.

So the most effective way to tackle this is to show deference to the administration that said the Coronavirus was no big deal and fought to get Medicare cut? Sounds legit

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Founded: Apr 18, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:12 am

If the US ends up with a worse outbreak than China I think the blame is going to end up squarely with Trump rather than governors.

That said, working life generally involves more massaging the egos of managers than it should.

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The Lone Alliance
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Founded: May 25, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Lone Alliance » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:27 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:If the US ends up with a worse outbreak than China I think the blame is going to end up squarely with Trump rather than governors.

That said, working life generally involves more massaging the egos of managers than it should.

It's called playing the game.
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -Herman Goering
--------------
War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; -William Tecumseh Sherman

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Moscareinas
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Founded: Dec 09, 2015
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Moscareinas » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:30 am

The Lone Alliance wrote:You want to try to overthrow the US government in a midst of a viral crisis, and you actually think the general population would side with you simply out of hatred of Trump?


Either this authoritarian quote-unquote hypothetical leader plays you all like a fiddle till you burn out, or you remove him and organize relief yourselves. He certainly isn't gonna help you unless you give him his fucking headpats, and who knows if that help really is help?

This is not just my hatred of the worst people to be leader playing out, this is averting catastrophe.
Moscareinas is an unexpectedly prosperous democratic republic whose territories include 54% of the western Indian Ocean, the IRL BIOT, Comoros, the Seychelles, Mauritius, and Reunion. Not included: Madagascar.

Moscans are torn about Madagascar.

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Moscareinas
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Founded: Dec 09, 2015
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Moscareinas » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:31 am

The Lone Alliance wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:If the US ends up with a worse outbreak than China I think the blame is going to end up squarely with Trump rather than governors.

That said, working life generally involves more massaging the egos of managers than it should.

It's called playing the game.


And in the end, the game plays you.
Moscareinas is an unexpectedly prosperous democratic republic whose territories include 54% of the western Indian Ocean, the IRL BIOT, Comoros, the Seychelles, Mauritius, and Reunion. Not included: Madagascar.

Moscans are torn about Madagascar.

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Grenartia
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Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:34 am

This dilemma is basically what we see in every authoritarian dictatorship (or even authoritarian regimes that are nominally democracies, such as Russia). The key difference here, is that at least on paper, we have the ability to act to quickly remove Trump. Were I one of those governors, I would absolutely highlight this comment as evidence that Trump is using my constituents' lives as pawns in his petty partisan bickering. At the very least, the public outrage (hopefully coming from even his own base) will require him to back down and give in.

Other situations (such as the aforementioned Russia) have different conditions that would justify different responses.
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The Lone Alliance
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Founded: May 25, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Lone Alliance » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:38 am

Moscareinas wrote:
The Lone Alliance wrote:You want to try to overthrow the US government in a midst of a viral crisis, and you actually think the general population would side with you simply out of hatred of Trump?


Either this authoritarian quote-unquote hypothetical leader plays you all like a fiddle till you burn out, or you remove him and organize relief yourselves. He certainly isn't gonna help you unless you give him his fucking headpats, and who knows if that help really is help?

This is not just my hatred of the worst people to be leader playing out, this is averting catastrophe.

You really think such a leader wouldn't likely destroy all the relief supplies as their last spiteful effort?

They'll make it so that even if you win you lose.

The leader has all the leverage right now, you can't even offer up an actual useful threat of revolt due to the fact that the very army of the people you seek to use against the leader are stricken with disease.

No you take the supplies, you play along, you convince the leader that everyone is loyal to him, and then when the crisis passes the leader will foolishly see themselves as the hero, the victor, that they used the crisis to successfully silence all opposition.

And that's when you strike.

For you see in the aftermath of the crisis the leader will be exhausted, emotionally, mentally, and materially, that's when you have the leverage, for you see the leader will want to return to normalcy, and for that people have the leverage.
Last edited by The Lone Alliance on Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -Herman Goering
--------------
War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; -William Tecumseh Sherman

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Grenartia
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Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:42 am

The Lone Alliance wrote:
Moscareinas wrote:
Either this authoritarian quote-unquote hypothetical leader plays you all like a fiddle till you burn out, or you remove him and organize relief yourselves. He certainly isn't gonna help you unless you give him his fucking headpats, and who knows if that help really is help?

This is not just my hatred of the worst people to be leader playing out, this is averting catastrophe.

You really think such a leader wouldn't likely destroy all the relief supplies as their last spiteful effort?

They'll make it so that even if you win you lose.


Unless he physically does it himself, then the people carrying out those orders are ordinary people who will be fucked over just as much as anyone else, and they can and should be persuaded to refuse to comply with the order, and refuse to allow someone else to do it.
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The Lone Alliance
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Founded: May 25, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Lone Alliance » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:46 am

Grenartia wrote:Unless he physically does it himself, then the people carrying out those orders are ordinary people who will be fucked over just as much as anyone else, and they can and should be persuaded to refuse to comply with the order, and refuse to allow someone else to do it.

And most Authoritarians will have enough yesmen who would carry out such an order.

Also see my extended post.
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -Herman Goering
--------------
War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; -William Tecumseh Sherman

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Founded: Apr 18, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:50 am

The Lone Alliance wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:If the US ends up with a worse outbreak than China I think the blame is going to end up squarely with Trump rather than governors.

That said, working life generally involves more massaging the egos of managers than it should.

It's called playing the game.


It's irritating and wasteful, particularly when you have a raging narcissist as a boss.

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The Lone Alliance
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Founded: May 25, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Lone Alliance » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:56 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
The Lone Alliance wrote:It's called playing the game.


It's irritating and wasteful, particularly when you have a raging narcissist as a boss.

Which is supposedly pretty common in corporate America and even in government Life, there is always at least one person somewhere in the chain of command who is either a raging narcissist or a budding sociopath who will require you to kiss their ass either to soothe their egos or to make sure you Know your place.

And yes you can sometimes remove them from power but positions like that attracts those kinds of people like sugar attracts ants.

It's why so many revolutions end up being full circle ones.
Last edited by The Lone Alliance on Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -Herman Goering
--------------
War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; -William Tecumseh Sherman

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Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 42237
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:59 am

The Lone Alliance wrote:
Grenartia wrote:Unless he physically does it himself, then the people carrying out those orders are ordinary people who will be fucked over just as much as anyone else, and they can and should be persuaded to refuse to comply with the order, and refuse to allow someone else to do it.

And most Authoritarians will have enough yesmen who would carry out such an order.


Yesmen who, can be threatened with being just as bad off as everyone else if they comply. Alternatively, these yesmen are ususally not the boots on the ground. In this specific case, they're either in the cabinet, or the upper levels of various departments and 3 letter agencies. At the absolute worst, they're middle management. They're not doing anything other than passing orders along. Its the boots on the ground who actually carry it out. Trump himself is never gonna flamethrower a pile of masks. Neither is the head of FEMA, or HUD, or whichever department or agency is carrying it out. Even if the military is tasked with doing it, nobody higher than an E-8 or E-9 is going to be doing the grunt work.

Also see my extended post.


The Lone Alliance wrote:The leader has all the leverage right now, you can't even offer up an actual useful threat of revolt due to the fact that the very army of the people you seek to use against the leader are stricken with disease.

No you take the supplies, you play along, you convince the leader that everyone is loyal to him, and then when the crisis passes the leader will foolishly see themselves as the hero, the victor, that they used the crisis to successfully silence all opposition.

And that's when you strike.

For you see in the aftermath of the crisis the leader will be exhausted, emotionally, mentally, and materially, that's when you have the leverage, for you see the leader will want to return to normalcy, and for that people have the leverage.


Playing along with it only gives him the propaganda victory he needs to win the election. Not only will he see himself as the hero, the victor, etc., but so will the people. Deny him that, make it public knowledge just how much it is his failures that have led to this point, emphasize how much you are doing without his cooperation, ensure the disobedience of everyone who would be tasked with carrying out a self-destructive order, etc.

The opposition has PLENTY of leverage in this situation, and quite frankly, they should be using it.
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Zapato
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Founded: Dec 06, 2012
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Gravlen

Postby Zapato » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:31 am

Moscareinas wrote:So, this is a thread. Very well.

So let us analyze the choices the OP has left for us, using me as the man in the middle, yes?

First, the headpats por favor: not acceptable. Not only will I not be able to pull off such groveling before the fucking worst humanity has to offer, that rat-assed bastard will stay on and do the worst he can for as long as he can. Prolong the suffering towards others for your fucking benefit? Fuck that shit. Fuuuuuuuuuck that shiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

Last, truth to power! Attractive, but not enough -- all you'll be doing then is to grandstand, to make this about you and that abysmal asshole, not the millions who need your help and who you want to help -- and that nutcase who gave up his own humanity for more power, for more suffering, for more of every negative value! So fuck that shit even more so, for it is a selfìsh act wrapped up in a mantle of magnanimity -- a passable political act in less batshit times, but not with a demon in human form at the helm, so really, fucccccccccccck that sheeeeeeeeeeeettttttt.

So we have two choices, discredited for their selfishness. So what more do we have?

Yes, what other choices are there? You tell me.


Player: "Let me make a thread about responsible reporting in the media"
Mod team: "No, because people might start discussing rape, because NSG."

*Lock*

(Meanwhile, the thread discussing rape is left open)

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