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Is religion a necessity for society?

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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:22 pm

Alvecia wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
Is that contempt I sense?

I dunno, why don't you guess what I'm contemptuous of and I'll tell you how close you get.


Why play games? Yes, no, or just a little?
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:24 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:
Alvecia wrote:I dunno, why don't you guess what I'm contemptuous of and I'll tell you how close you get.


Why play games? Yes, no, or just a little?

This really is me trying not to play a game. Why don't you just skip the foreplay and get right to the point you're trying to make.
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Region of Dwipantara
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Postby Region of Dwipantara » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:24 pm

Freakoland wrote:
Region of Dwipantara wrote:Here's my opinion:

1. The Czech republic is a nice and peaceful central European country with good healthcare, high standard of living, and an irreligiousity rate of 72%. Meanwhile, Afghanistan is a totalitarian fundamentalist sh*thole country with quack infrastructure and subsistence-level income. I'm not saying that all religion is bad for society per se, some quite the opposite in fact, but I do say that religion isn't really an important factor.

2. The problem with most religion is that, being a dictatorial commandment from the sky that we must obey or else, they can't evaluate the result of their existence and correct them (or at least efficiently). Humans need principles, sure, but we also need a way to evaluate if those principles makes the world a better place or instead drag ourselves to the 6th century.


I think that's interesting what you said in your second point., that religion being a "dictatorial commandment from the sky" or else, in that perhaps religion is just a reflection human nature's desire for some sort of higher authority. People dont really do well in chaos so most people naturally accept a dictorial commandment from the sky. Now that being said I wouldn't say that it is good. People who are able to train themselves out of needing that dictorial commandment in the sky and see the absolute chaos and arbitrariness of the universe and are still able to hold that and be ok with, I think that's where real life begins.


(This is also the reason why I view the Soviet Union as a semi-religion: belief system from the sky [Kremlin] that cannot be challenged or evaluated and is indoctrinated to little children). I think it's more on the "religion is an effective tool to control the masses" thing. If you are a 11th century king ruling over a land of peasants where order is enforced through the sword, having Big Brother on your side greatly helps. An orderly state is much, much preferable to warring warlords. But as time progresses, those systems starts to get outdated and become irritating.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:25 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Not inherently but religion in its various forms be it Christian, Hindu, Muslim, pagan etc etc does provide a sense of community and belonging that thus far at least purely secular things have failed to match.

Are governments and corporations not by their nature secular?
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Europa Undivided
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Postby Europa Undivided » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:25 pm

Sadakoyama wrote:
Freakoland wrote:What I think would be interesting is to compare different societies which have tried to eradicate religion versus those which were basically theocratic.

Say Communist Russia vs. Imperial Russia.


Communist Russia rather quickly replaced worhip of god with worship of Stalin, though. It would be better to look at cultures evolving out of religion, such as Scandanavia.

Scandinavia is still majority Christian and have state supported churches.

Oh, and Scandinavia is getting Islamized by the year. Sweden will be Swedistan within the century.
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Freakoland
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Postby Freakoland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:25 pm

Alvecia wrote:Personally I don't think so. That which religion provides can be provided through other means.

That said, even without it, people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.


I'm interested by what you said, how people are "going to believe in some stupid shit." Perhaps religion and spirituality are anthropological explainable phenomena. That people are going to believe in something because they want to believe in something. Whatever this "something " is that is where religious wars come in for us to help clarify.

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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:25 pm

Alvecia wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
Why play games? Yes, no, or just a little?

This really is me trying not to play a game. Why don't you just skip the foreplay and get right to the point you're trying to make.


people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.

Is religion on that same level to you, and are you contemptuous towards that "bullshit".
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"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:26 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Not inherently but religion in its various forms be it Christian, Hindu, Muslim, pagan etc etc does provide a sense of community and belonging that thus far at least purely secular things have failed to match.

Are governments and corporations not by their nature secular?


I don't know about you anon but neither Congress nor Walmart give me a sense of community and belonging lol
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Europa Undivided
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Postby Europa Undivided » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:27 pm

Alvecia wrote:Personally I don't think so. That which religion provides can be provided through other means.

That said, even without it, people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.

Reddit atheism detected.

Comparing religion with flat earthers is dumb. Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally dumb.
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My hobbies: Cranking out novels in Wattpad, cosplaying as Obi-Wan Kenobi, smashing Arminianism, watching History Channel, and raging about human stupidity. Oh, and making Warhammer 40K references everywhere.

For: State secularism, freedom of religion, space colonization, leaving this wet ball for another wet ball, and UBI.
Against: Suing a baker for the third time, the annoying breed of feminism, unjustified abortion, and forcing ministers to officiate LGBT marriage.

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Sadakoyama
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Postby Sadakoyama » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:29 pm

Freakoland wrote:
Sadakoyama wrote:Communist Russia rather quickly replaced worhip of god with worship of Stalin, though. It would be better to look at cultures evolving out of religion, such as Scandanavia.

But what about Russia after Stalin, say under Khrushchev or Gorbachev? I think worship of Stalin was no different than any other megalomania seen in say Hitler's Germany or present-day North Korea. But are these cults of personality really "religious"? I don't think so because they don't qualify to be religious in the sense that they lack the spiritual aspect of religion. Now, if you see religion as not specifically spiritual then that would be interesting for another discussion, but in regards to worship of Stalin replacing worship of God I would challenge you on that supposition.

After Stalin, traditional religion (which never really went away) experienced a resurgence. That's why I suggested looking at a culture evolving out of it rather than an artificially forced change.
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:29 pm

All I know is I'm quite capable of following the laws and choosing to not be a dick without religion. Many of our laws are counter to many religions anyway, and different philosophies can give morality entirely separate from religion.

For most religious people I think religion isn't the sole reason they are good people, although it can help inspire them to be better... or in rarer cases it can inspire them to be worse people.

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Freakoland
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Postby Freakoland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:30 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:
Freakoland wrote:
I think that's interesting what you said in your second point., that religion being a "dictatorial commandment from the sky" or else, in that perhaps religion is just a reflection human nature's desire for some sort of higher authority. People dont really do well in chaos so most people naturally accept a dictorial commandment from the sky. Now that being said I wouldn't say that it is good. People who are able to train themselves out of needing that dictorial commandment in the sky and see the absolute chaos and arbitrariness of the universe and are still able to hold that and be ok with, I think that's where real life begins.


(This is also the reason why I view the Soviet Union as a semi-religion: belief system from the sky [Kremlin] that cannot be challenged or evaluated and is indoctrinated to little children). I think it's more on the "religion is an effective tool to control the masses" thing. If you are a 11th century king ruling over a land of peasants where order is enforced through the sword, having Big Brother on your side greatly helps. An orderly state is much, much preferable to warring warlords. But as time progresses, those systems starts to get outdated and become irritating.


You know what's fascinating (and you're post just reminded me of this) is how the concept of hell or some sort of post-life eternal punishment in Christianity is explainable through the Church and nobility trying to assert their authority. In the early Chruch there wasn't the notion of "hell" as we think of it. Alot of the imagery of fire and brimstone actually came to us through Dante. But on the original matter, I've labeled as a heretic before because I advanced the theory that hell is just a historical construct and is actually un-Christlike and really doesn't exist.

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Sadakoyama
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Postby Sadakoyama » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:30 pm

Europa Undivided wrote:Comparing religion with flat earthers is dumb. Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally dumb.


Not really,the cognative origins of such thinking may be similar.

https://theboar.org/2019/01/religion/

If traditional religions don't fill that "hole", other things will.
Last edited by Sadakoyama on Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:30 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Are governments and corporations not by their nature secular?


I don't know about you anon but neither Congress nor Walmart give me a sense of community and belonging lol

Fair enough, I will grant that a sense of community is not something to underestimate and we could learn a thing or two.
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Postby Europa Undivided » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:31 pm

Sadakoyama wrote:
Europa Undivided wrote:Comparing religion with flat earthers is dumb. Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally dumb.


Not really,the cognative origins of such thinking may be similar.

https://theboar.org/2019/01/religion/

Meh.
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My hobbies: Cranking out novels in Wattpad, cosplaying as Obi-Wan Kenobi, smashing Arminianism, watching History Channel, and raging about human stupidity. Oh, and making Warhammer 40K references everywhere.

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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:31 pm

Europa Undivided wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Personally I don't think so. That which religion provides can be provided through other means.

That said, even without it, people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.

Reddit atheism detected.

Comparing religion with flat earthers is dumb. Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally dumb.

You know it must be true because a guy on the internet said so. And he used a ton of "a"s.
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:31 pm

Freakoland wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Personally I don't think so. That which religion provides can be provided through other means.

That said, even without it, people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.


I'm interested by what you said, how people are "going to believe in some stupid shit." Perhaps religion and spirituality are anthropological explainable phenomena. That people are going to believe in something because they want to believe in something. Whatever this "something " is that is where religious wars come in for us to help clarify.

The cognitive flaws of the human brain are quite well known.
Lower Nubia wrote:
Alvecia wrote:This really is me trying not to play a game. Why don't you just skip the foreplay and get right to the point you're trying to make.


people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.

Is religion on that same level to you, and are you contemptuous towards that "bullshit".

Yes.
Europa Undivided wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Personally I don't think so. That which religion provides can be provided through other means.

That said, even without it, people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.

Reddit atheism detected.

Comparing religion with flat earthers is dumb. Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally dumb.

You're the one that brought up flat earthers.
I was thinking of "alternative" medicines.
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Freakoland
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Postby Freakoland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:33 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Are governments and corporations not by their nature secular?


I don't know about you anon but neither Congress nor Walmart give me a sense of community and belonging lol


Costco and IKEA lowkey give you a sense of belonging though not gonna lie

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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:34 pm

Sadakoyama wrote:
Europa Undivided wrote:Comparing religion with flat earthers is dumb. Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally dumb.


Not really,the cognative origins of such thinking may be similar.

https://theboar.org/2019/01/religion/

If traditional religions don't fill that "hole", other things will.


Is that the bar we're setting now for scientific testing?
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"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:35 pm

Alvecia wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.

Is religion on that same level to you, and are you contemptuous towards that "bullshit".

Yes.


Oh look, I was right:

"For now, we'll just have to do with one camp being hateful, and the other camp being hateful, but wrongly."
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  2. Socially Centre-Right
  3. Economically Centre-left
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  5. Graduated
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Her Region of Africa
Her Overview (WIP)
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:36 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Yes.


Oh look, I was right:

"For now, we'll just have to do with one camp being hateful, and the other camp being hateful, but wrongly."

k
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That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

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Lower Nubia
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Founded: Dec 22, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lower Nubia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:36 pm

Alvecia wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
Oh look, I was right:

"For now, we'll just have to do with one camp being hateful, and the other camp being hateful, but wrongly."

k


Your performance was most appreciated. :clap:
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  3. Economically Centre-left
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  5. Graduated
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Her Region of Africa
Her Overview (WIP)
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 19th March, 2020

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Region of Dwipantara
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Founded: Dec 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Region of Dwipantara » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:36 pm

Alvecia wrote:Personally I don't think so. That which religion provides can be provided through other means.

That said, even without it, people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.

At least they don't have laws passed by parliament that punishes anyone who criticizes their laughable (or, in the case of pro-diseasist antivaxx, dangerous) beliefs and put those critics to jail.

Freakoland wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Personally I don't think so. That which religion provides can be provided through other means.

That said, even without it, people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.


I'm interested by what you said, how people are "going to believe in some stupid shit." Perhaps religion and spirituality are anthropological explainable phenomena. That people are going to believe in something because they want to believe in something. Whatever this "something " is that is where religious wars come in for us to help clarify.


There's more to that than a simple desire to "belive in a dogmatic set of things", actually. Conspiracy theorists are driven by distrust on the (at least from their PoV) all-powerful government who works for the benefit of the few. Islamic terrorists are choked with propaganda about the evils of western/zionist imperialism, how those Evil White People are behind the pain experienced by Muslims in [insert middle eastern hellhole], and how a global caliphate ruled by a Dearest Leader will end those problems.
☪︎ Province No. 14 of the Islamic Khilafah – 14 الخلافة الإسلامية منطقة‎ ☪︎
Home | Government | Policy | Contact

This sig is hacked by the FABULOUS #y0uNG_fOX3S. ¡RESTORE THE REPUBLIC, DESTROY THE KHILAFAH! Join the Alliance and the Fox today and we will Make Dwipantara Merdeka Again! ^OWO^
1418-DZQ-02/1998-MAR-03 RADIO REPUBLIK DWIPANTARA | Blow to Khilafah control in South Asia as Bombay captured by Free India Army | Defense chief Wintarto assures Central Borneo is now "stable enough" to join the April election, after last November's slave and tribal revolt sacked Sampit port city and slaughtered its Arabic slaveowner population

Today's featured | Do not listen to the flat-earthers imperialists, read the TRUE factbooks of our province here, exclusive on the Cakrawala Fox-Site

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Europa Undivided
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Postby Europa Undivided » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:37 pm

Alvecia wrote:
Freakoland wrote:
I'm interested by what you said, how people are "going to believe in some stupid shit." Perhaps religion and spirituality are anthropological explainable phenomena. That people are going to believe in something because they want to believe in something. Whatever this "something " is that is where religious wars come in for us to help clarify.

The cognitive flaws of the human brain are quite well known.
Lower Nubia wrote:
people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.

Is religion on that same level to you, and are you contemptuous towards that "bullshit".

Yes.
Europa Undivided wrote:Reddit atheism detected.

Comparing religion with flat earthers is dumb. Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally dumb.

You're the one that brought up flat earthers.
I was thinking of "alternative" medicines.

"Pseudoscientific"

Oh, if that's the case, you will be ignored.
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My hobbies: Cranking out novels in Wattpad, cosplaying as Obi-Wan Kenobi, smashing Arminianism, watching History Channel, and raging about human stupidity. Oh, and making Warhammer 40K references everywhere.

For: State secularism, freedom of religion, space colonization, leaving this wet ball for another wet ball, and UBI.
Against: Suing a baker for the third time, the annoying breed of feminism, unjustified abortion, and forcing ministers to officiate LGBT marriage.

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Europa Undivided
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Postby Europa Undivided » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:
Europa Undivided wrote:Reddit atheism detected.

Comparing religion with flat earthers is dumb. Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally dumb.

You know it must be true because a guy on the internet said so. And he used a ton of "a"s.

Screw you. Foed.
Futurist ~ Reformed ~ Journalist ~ #WritingCommunity


My hobbies: Cranking out novels in Wattpad, cosplaying as Obi-Wan Kenobi, smashing Arminianism, watching History Channel, and raging about human stupidity. Oh, and making Warhammer 40K references everywhere.

For: State secularism, freedom of religion, space colonization, leaving this wet ball for another wet ball, and UBI.
Against: Suing a baker for the third time, the annoying breed of feminism, unjustified abortion, and forcing ministers to officiate LGBT marriage.

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