Is religion a necessity for society?

[Vivolkha]

There are 100% physical mechanisms by which the universe can origin that do not require a creator. There is no perfection in the universe whatsoever. It advances slowly and inexorably towards its death strictly following the same physical laws that led to its origin. If we are here is a matter of chance and anthropic principle.


This.

Also, I suggest abandoning the debate on whether Islam is corrupted or not because it leads nowhere. Just like other religions, Islam consists of unfalsifiable statements. Religion must be discredited as a concept, because there is no way to prove a particular one is right or wrong.

My closest attempt at discrediting the validity of religion (again considering that strictly speaking their statements are unfalsifiable - else there would be no religious people to begin with) consists in pointing out that arbitrary religious rules derived from similarly arbitrary, unfalsifiable religious teachings/texts are occasionally harmful to human health (e.g. purdah, FGM) or directly contradict basic human biology (e.g. sexual abstinence requirements), with catastrophic results (e.g. priests abusing children).

These points, as well as the outdated understanding of the world of many holy texts (e.g. geocentrism) and the comical, desperate retrofitting of modern, proven scientifical facts that discredit them into religious teachings signal that, as unfalsifiable religious statements may be, evidence suggests they are false.

What do you mean it’s not perfect.

How is the universe perfect in any way? It just is. It has its laws, according to which it has a mathematical beggining and and end. That's it.

And also, in Islam, we believe that you don’t go to heaven immediately after you die. The world will end, and the Day of Judgement will come. In Surah at-Takwir (Putting Out The Sun) it says: When the sun is put out, and when the stars fall down, and when the mountains are blown away, and when pregnant camels are left unattended, and when wild beasts are gathered together, and when seas are set on fire, and when the souls and their bodies are paired once more, and when infant girls, buried alive, are asked for what crime they were killed, and when the records of everyone’s deeds are laid open, and when the sly is stripped away, and when the Hellfire is fiercely flared up, and when Paradise (Heaven) is brought near— on that day, each soul will know what deeds it has done.

While I appreciate the insight, this is subject to NGR's previous point...

And NGR, If Islam isn’t the true message, then how come unlike the Bible and Torah, it has remained the same throughout the centuries? You have so many Bibles today, some not even agreeing on numbers. The Torah is speculated to have been lost at some point and possibly rewritten simply on memory, and much what is taught today is simply oral tradition. Meanwhile, there is only one Qur’ân, and it has been widely memorized.

...and here you just dodged NGR's bullet. This still does not prove any legitimacy at all. The preservation of the Qur'ân the way it is is because as far as I understand it is thought to be the direct word of God, contrary to what Christians think of the Bible (an interpretation of the word of God by the saints).

There's countless proof but atheists won't accept it.

Such as?

[Insaanistan]

What do you mean it’s not perfect.

How is the universe perfect in any way? It just is. It has its laws, according to which it has a mathematical beggining and and end. That's it.

And also, in Islam, we believe that you don’t go to heaven immediately after you die. The world will end, and the Day of Judgement will come. In Surah at-Takwir (Putting Out The Sun) it says: When the sun is put out, and when the stars fall down, and when the mountains are blown away, and when pregnant camels are left unattended, and when wild beasts are gathered together, and when seas are set on fire, and when the souls and their bodies are paired once more, and when infant girls, buried alive, are asked for what crime they were killed, and when the records of everyone’s deeds are laid open, and when the sly is stripped away, and when the Hellfire is fiercely flared up, and when Paradise (Heaven) is brought near— on that day, each soul will know what deeds it has done.

While I appreciate the insight, this is subject to NGR's previous point...

And NGR, If Islam isn’t the true message, then how come unlike the Bible and Torah, it has remained the same throughout the centuries? You have so many Bibles today, some not even agreeing on numbers. The Torah is speculated to have been lost at some point and possibly rewritten simply on memory, and much what is taught today is simply oral tradition. Meanwhile, there is only one Qur’ân, and it has been widely memorized.

...and here you just dodged NGR's bullet. This still does not prove any legitimacy at all. The preservation of the Qur'ân the way it is is because as far as I understand it is thought to be the direct word of God, contrary to what Christians think of the Bible (an interpretation of the word of God by the saints).

There's countless proof but atheists won't accept it.

Such as?

The Universe has laws, yes, but they seem to sometimes be defied by somethings. Is it not probable that there is a higher being capable of defying the laws of the universe they created, capable of what humans are not, and purposely prevents us from seeing or exploring or understanding certain things?
If you have a holy book, and firstly, it is in countless versions, and secondly, it in itself by is based not on what God said but on what man thinks God said, how is it correct? How is it correct if it has been changed and been created by interpretation. God promises in the Qur’ân that He will always preserve the Qur’ân. How could they know at the time that it would remain the same, if not for what God said. The Qur’ân was not in a book form at the death of Muhammad pbuh, but there were several hafiz, memorizers of the Qur’ân. How many people today have memorized the original Bible in Hebrew or Aramaic and understood it? And NGR as also said, if I’m not mistaken, that the Qur’ân is copied from the Bible. May I remind you, Muhammad pbuh was illiterate.

[Washington Resistance Army]

May I remind you, Muhammad pbuh was illiterate.

He almost certainly wasn't tbh. His profession prior to becoming a warlord was the sort where literacy and general intelligence were generally needed and several sahih hadith make direct mention of him personally writing things, which you can't do if you're illiterate.

[Nakena]

There's countless proof but atheists won't accept it. The only atheists I know of that were actually converted to faith was a famous example: the writer C. S. Lewis, and those that had near-death experiences. It's almost impossible to convince an atheist of the existence of God and life after death.

Let's talk about those demons again.

How should society be react upon this?

[North German Realm]

Why would one neglect the existence of the triune God and His love and help for you? The only true religion (Catholic Christianity) is necessary for the salvation of every human. Outside the holy mother Church one cannot be saved except in rare circumstances. In these circumstances however the souls usually stay much longer in purgatory than they would have if they were part of the Church and able to receive the sacraments. The only exception are killed unborns: children killed in their mother's womb have no personal sin, therefore they go to Heaven immediately, but since they die in original sin, they can never see God.

The reason this statement -and the "Evidence" that typically accompany it- is utterly and completely wrong is because you could replace only a few words in it and it would work for any other religion, which you would have to prove that "no, this only works for my religion".

[Freakoland]

Why would one neglect the existence of the triune God and His love and help for you? The only true religion (Catholic Christianity) is necessary for the salvation of every human. Outside the holy mother Church one cannot be saved except in rare circumstances. In these circumstances however the souls usually stay much longer in purgatory than they would have if they were part of the Church and able to receive the sacraments. The only exception are killed unborns: children killed in their mother's womb have no personal sin, therefore they go to Heaven immediately, but since they die in original sin, they can never see God.

As a Roman Catholic as well I completely disagree with your view on salvation. Unless you adhere to Vatican I where Protestants are heretic, Rome is pretty clear that Protestants are not heretics and receive salvation through their faith in Jesus Christ, albeit not Catholic faith. The term for this is "separated brethren." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separated_brethren

[North German Realm]

Why would one neglect the existence of the triune God and His love and help for you? The only true religion (Catholic Christianity) is necessary for the salvation of every human. Outside the holy mother Church one cannot be saved except in rare circumstances. In these circumstances however the souls usually stay much longer in purgatory than they would have if they were part of the Church and able to receive the sacraments. The only exception are killed unborns: children killed in their mother's womb have no personal sin, therefore they go to Heaven immediately, but since they die in original sin, they can never see God.

As a Roman Catholic as well I completely disagree with your view on salvation. Unless you adhere to Vatican I where Protestants are heretic, Rome is pretty clear that Protestants are not heretics and receive salvation through their faith in Jesus Christ, albeit not Catholic faith. The term for this is "separated brethren." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separated_brethren

Tbh this -alongside the revocation of the Excommunication of the Orthodoxy- is only a result of the woobification of the Catholic faith in the 20th century and should be ignored for how different it is with how the Church has been run for the last thousand years.

[Freakoland]

As a Roman Catholic as well I completely disagree with your view on salvation. Unless you adhere to Vatican I where Protestants are heretic, Rome is pretty clear that Protestants are not heretics and receive salvation through their faith in Jesus Christ, albeit not Catholic faith. The term for this is "separated brethren." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separated_brethren

Tbh this -alongside the revocation of the Excommunication of the Orthodoxy- is only a result of the woobification of the Catholic faith in the 20th century and should be ignored for how different it is with how the Church has been run for the last thousand years.

Agreed. The Catholic Chruch for that thousand years has been anything but nice. But as for the "woobification" I'm not sure if I would call inclusivity and acceptance "wooby" things. But hey, if burning heretics at stake is your thing, cool.

[Freakoland]

As a Roman Catholic as well I completely disagree with your view on salvation. Unless you adhere to Vatican I where Protestants are heretic, Rome is pretty clear that Protestants are not heretics and receive salvation through their faith in Jesus Christ, albeit not Catholic faith. The term for this is "separated brethren." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separated_brethren

Tbh this -alongside the revocation of the Excommunication of the Orthodoxy- is only a result of the woobification of the Catholic faith in the 20th century and should be ignored for how different it is with how the Church has been run for the last thousand years.

And in regards to "how different" it was, do you mean to say that Vatican II is null?

[Dogmeat]

Why would one neglect the existence of the triune God and His love and help for you? The only true religion (Catholic Christianity) is necessary for the salvation of every human. Outside the holy mother Church one cannot be saved except in rare circumstances. In these circumstances however the souls usually stay much longer in purgatory than they would have if they were part of the Church and able to receive the sacraments. The only exception are killed unborns: children killed in their mother's womb have no personal sin, therefore they go to Heaven immediately, but since they die in original sin, they can never see God.

It's so weird, and plainly unjust, that an almighty God can do nothing at all for souls once they've died. What's the point of eternity if you can't do anything meaningful at all with it? Original sin can only be cured by splashy-splash magic, that can only be done in a comparatively tiny window of time, and God is powerless to forgive it any other way.

Sorry unborn. Whether you were killed by man's hands, or the countless more who were stuck down by God through miscarriage, God can apparently do nothing to forgive you.

Nice.

[Freakoland]

There's countless proof but atheists won't accept it. The only atheists I know of that were actually converted to faith was a famous example: the writer C. S. Lewis, and those that had near-death experiences. It's almost impossible to convince an atheist of the existence of God and life after death.

Let's talk about those demons again.

How should society be react upon this?

You know you're not gonna change his mind right? He's a fundamentalist it's like arguing with a wall it's no use.

[Freakoland]

Why would one neglect the existence of the triune God and His love and help for you? The only true religion (Catholic Christianity) is necessary for the salvation of every human. Outside the holy mother Church one cannot be saved except in rare circumstances. In these circumstances however the souls usually stay much longer in purgatory than they would have if they were part of the Church and able to receive the sacraments. The only exception are killed unborns: children killed in their mother's womb have no personal sin, therefore they go to Heaven immediately, but since they die in original sin, they can never see God.

It's so weird, and plainly unjust, that an almighty God can do nothing at all for souls once they've died. What's the point of eternity if you can't do anything meaningful at all with it? Original sin can only be cured by splashy-splash magic, that can only be done in a comparatively tiny window of time, and God is powerless to forgive it any other way.

Sorry unborn. Whether you were killed by man's hands, or the countless more who were stuck down by God through miscarriage, God can apparently do nothing to forgive you.

Nice.

Ya what you just said is the argument I use when talking about the nature of salvation. I've been called a "universalist" and "heretic" on numerous occasions but the message of Jesus (that is when you don't interpret literally like a moron) is pretty universalist and inclusive if you take a step back and think about it.

[Insaanistan]

May I remind you, Muhammad pbuh was illiterate.

He almost certainly wasn't tbh. His profession prior to becoming a warlord was the sort where literacy and general intelligence were generally needed and several sahih hadith make direct mention of him personally writing things, which you can't do if you're illiterate.

You do realize he wasn’t a warlord, right? He didn’t like war, and when he did go to war, he made it as humane as possible. And illiteracy was common in every profession except poet or scribe. His previous jobs were shepherd and merchant, and shepherding requires no literacy, and you don’t need to know how to read and write to know how much a coin is worth. The first time the Qur’ân was revealed to him, Muhammad pbuh was meditating in a cave, which he did every year, when suddenly, a bright light came. A voice he had never heard before, the voice of the angel Gabriel, said, “Iqra!”, which means, “read”. Muhammad pbuh replied “I do not know how to read.” He felt a great pain, as if he was being squeezed. Then the pain eased. “Read!” the voice said again. “I do not know how.” The pain began again. This repeated again. Then the angel spoke the words of God to Muhammad pbuh: “Read in the name of thy Lord who created. Created man from a clot of blood. Read: and thy lord is the Most Bounteous. Who teaches by the pen man what he did not know.” These are the first verses of Surah al-Ālaq. Muhammad pbuh, frightened, ran out of the cave and down the mountain, as the voice of Gabriel said to him, “You are the messenger of God, and I am the angel Gabriel”. He ran into his house and covered himself with a blanket. He told his wife, Khadijah, what had happened, and was convinced that he was being pestered by some evil spirit. His wife told him that God would not let such a thing happen to something like him. They decided to visit Khadijah’s cousin, Waraqa. He listened, then said, “This is Namus (Gabriel) that God sent to Moses. I wish I were younger. I wish I could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Muhammad pbuh was basically like, “When my people do what now?”
Waraqa told it was nothing personal, people always do stuff like that to God’s prophets. Waraqa died a few days later. Like he predicted, Muhammad pbuh suffered, was stoned, almost assassinated, and cast out.

[North German Realm]

Tbh this -alongside the revocation of the Excommunication of the Orthodoxy- is only a result of the woobification of the Catholic faith in the 20th century and should be ignored for how different it is with how the Church has been run for the last thousand years.

Agreed. The Catholic Chruch for that thousand years has been anything but nice. But as for the "woobification" I'm not sure if I would call inclusivity and acceptance "wooby" things. But hey, if burning heretics at stake is your thing, cool.

I mean "burning at the stake" is a matter of judiciary, and if you let religion do any judiciary and hope they'll just do a face-heel turn, you've got a problem. But yes, I would call it woobification, not because it's inclusive and accepting but because of how much of a face-heel turn this actually is.

Tbh this -alongside the revocation of the Excommunication of the Orthodoxy- is only a result of the woobification of the Catholic faith in the 20th century and should be ignored for how different it is with how the Church has been run for the last thousand years.

And in regards to "how different" it was, do you mean to say that Vatican II is null?

I don't mean anything. I'm neither the Pope nor a Cardinal, I have no right to claim whether or not an Ecumenical Council is just null or not. I only mean that it is a harsh veneer and a face-heel turn from prior doctrine and as such should be viewed with raised eyebrow. Religion doesn't just do face-heel turns like that.

[Freakoland]

Agreed. The Catholic Chruch for that thousand years has been anything but nice. But as for the "woobification" I'm not sure if I would call inclusivity and acceptance "wooby" things. But hey, if burning heretics at stake is your thing, cool.

I mean "burning at the stake" is a matter of judiciary, and if you let religion do any judiciary and hope they'll just do a face-heel turn, you've got a problem. But yes, I would call it woobification, not because it's inclusive and accepting but because of how much of a face-heel turn this actually is.

And in regards to "how different" it was, do you mean to say that Vatican II is null?

I don't mean anything. I'm neither the Pope nor a Cardinal, I have no right to claim whether or not an Ecumenical Council is just null or not. I only mean that it is a harsh veneer and a face-heel turn from prior doctrine and as such should be viewed with raised eyebrow. Religion doesn't just do face-heel turns like that.

Everything should be viewed with raised eyebrows of course. But it was a necessary face-heel turn in the face of a modernizing and globalizing world if more than anything. For the Catholic church to survive as a political entity it had to call a council which reviewed some of the previous beliefs which people, rightfully so, thought to be bigoted and "behind the times." I'm not trying to start a theological argument here, and you're absolutely right that the bizarre about face that the Catholic Church made at Vatican II should be viewed askance, but insofar as what they dude is saying, it quite literally isnt what Rome thinks. That is just a fact.

[Kowani]

He almost certainly wasn't tbh. His profession prior to becoming a warlord was the sort where literacy and general intelligence were generally needed and several sahih hadith make direct mention of him personally writing things, which you can't do if you're illiterate.

You do realize he wasn’t a warlord, right? He didn’t like war, and when he did go to war, he made it as humane as possible. And illiteracy was common in every profession except poet or scribe. His previous jobs were shepherd and merchant, and shepherding requires no literacy, and you don’t need to know how to read and write to know how much a coin is worth. The first time the Qur’ân was revealed to him, Muhammad pbuh was meditating in a cave, which he did every year, when suddenly, a bright light came. A voice he had never heard before, the voice of the angel Gabriel, said, “Iqra!”, which means, “read”. Muhammad pbuh replied “I do not know how to read.” He felt a great pain, as if he was being squeezed. Then the pain eased. “Read!” the voice said again. “I do not know how.” The pain began again. This repeated again. Then the angel spoke the words of God to Muhammad pbuh: “Read in the name of thy Lord who created. Created man from a clot of blood. Read: and thy lord is the Most Bounteous. Who teaches by the pen man what he did not know.” These are the first verses of Surah al-Ālaq. Muhammad pbuh, frightened, ran out of the cave and down the mountain, as the voice of Gabriel said to him, “You are the messenger of God, and I am the angel Gabriel”. He ran into his house and covered himself with a blanket. He told his wife, Khadijah, what had happened, and was convinced that he was being pestered by some evil spirit. His wife told him that God would not let such a thing happen to something like him. They decided to visit Khadijah’s cousin, Waraqa. He listened, then said, “This is Namus (Gabriel) that God sent to Moses. I wish I were younger. I wish I could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Muhammad pbuh was basically like, “When my people do what now?”
Waraqa told it was nothing personal, people always do stuff like that to God’s prophets. Waraqa died a few days later. Like he predicted, Muhammad pbuh suffered, was stoned, almost assassinated, and cast out.

…In what world does a merchant not have even the very basics of literacy? You have to keep records of what you have in stock.

[Insaanistan]

You do realize he wasn’t a warlord, right? He didn’t like war, and when he did go to war, he made it as humane as possible. And illiteracy was common in every profession except poet or scribe. His previous jobs were shepherd and merchant, and shepherding requires no literacy, and you don’t need to know how to read and write to know how much a coin is worth. The first time the Qur’ân was revealed to him, Muhammad pbuh was meditating in a cave, which he did every year, when suddenly, a bright light came. A voice he had never heard before, the voice of the angel Gabriel, said, “Iqra!”, which means, “read”. Muhammad pbuh replied “I do not know how to read.” He felt a great pain, as if he was being squeezed. Then the pain eased. “Read!” the voice said again. “I do not know how.” The pain began again. This repeated again. Then the angel spoke the words of God to Muhammad pbuh: “Read in the name of thy Lord who created. Created man from a clot of blood. Read: and thy lord is the Most Bounteous. Who teaches by the pen man what he did not know.” These are the first verses of Surah al-Ālaq. Muhammad pbuh, frightened, ran out of the cave and down the mountain, as the voice of Gabriel said to him, “You are the messenger of God, and I am the angel Gabriel”. He ran into his house and covered himself with a blanket. He told his wife, Khadijah, what had happened, and was convinced that he was being pestered by some evil spirit. His wife told him that God would not let such a thing happen to something like him. They decided to visit Khadijah’s cousin, Waraqa. He listened, then said, “This is Namus (Gabriel) that God sent to Moses. I wish I were younger. I wish I could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Muhammad pbuh was basically like, “When my people do what now?”
Waraqa told it was nothing personal, people always do stuff like that to God’s prophets. Waraqa died a few days later. Like he predicted, Muhammad pbuh suffered, was stoned, almost assassinated, and cast out.

…In what world does a merchant not have even the very basics of literacy? You have to keep records of what you have in stock.

This was 1400 years ago. In Arabia. And he didn’t work alone. And his employers were generally rich and educated.

[Kowani]

…In what world does a merchant not have even the very basics of literacy? You have to keep records of what you have in stock.

This was 1400 years ago. In Arabia. And he didn’t work alone. And his employers were generally rich and educated.

None of that changes a single thing of what I said.

[Insaanistan]

This was 1400 years ago. In Arabia. And he didn’t work alone. And his employers were generally rich and educated.

None of that changes a single thing of what I said.

Why would employers care about someone’s literacy when their field is selling items when there is likely to be at least one literate person in their caravan, and the language that they speak hasn’t even been standardized yet?

[Aureumterra]

He almost certainly wasn't tbh. His profession prior to becoming a warlord was the sort where literacy and general intelligence were generally needed and several sahih hadith make direct mention of him personally writing things, which you can't do if you're illiterate.

You do realize he wasn’t a warlord, right?

[Vivolkha]

How is the universe perfect in any way? It just is. It has its laws, according to which it has a mathematical beggining and and end. That's it.


While I appreciate the insight, this is subject to NGR's previous point...


...and here you just dodged NGR's bullet. This still does not prove any legitimacy at all. The preservation of the Qur'ân the way it is is because as far as I understand it is thought to be the direct word of God, contrary to what Christians think of the Bible (an interpretation of the word of God by the saints).


Such as?

The Universe has laws, yes, but they seem to sometimes be defied by somethings.

100% of the time it is because our understanding of such laws is incomplete.

Is it not probable that there is a higher being capable of defying the laws of the universe they created, capable of what humans are not, and purposely prevents us from seeing or exploring or understanding certain things?

No, it's not. These laws preclude the necessity for such a being to exist in the first place. Other points I made against the validity of religion have not been addressed - and suspiciously, never are every time I enter in a debate like this.

If you have a holy book, and firstly, it is in countless versions, and secondly, it in itself by is based not on what God said but on what man thinks God said, how is it correct?

It is not. We agree here.

How is it correct if it has been changed and been created by interpretation.

The Qu'rân itself is interpreted in different ways by different Muslim groups.

God promises in the Qur’ân that He will always preserve the Qur’ân.

God's existance is also in doubt.

How could they know at the time that it would remain the same, if not for what God said.

They could not. Just because their "prediction" happened to be accurate does not mean they could know the future in any way. If Muslims believed that the Qur’ân must be preserved then they will make the effort to do so. Congratulations, you have succeded. Where did God intervene? Nowhere.

The Qur’ân was not in a book form at the death of Muhammad pbuh, but there were several hafiz, memorizers of the Qur’ân. How many people today have memorized the original Bible in Hebrew or Aramaic and understood it? And NGR as also said, if I’m not mistaken, that the Qur’ân is copied from the Bible. May I remind you, Muhammad pbuh was illiterate.

How does this address any concerns about the text's validity, let alone of Islam in general, let alone of religion as a concept in general?

[Swindenland]

Because there is no proof. It's like having a large locked treasure chest in front of you and you don't know what's in it. Then someone comes around asking: 'Hey pal, what is in this chest?' And even though literally anything could be in this treasure chest, you say: 'It's God.'

There's countless proof but atheists won't accept it. The only atheists I know of that were actually converted to faith was a famous example: the writer C. S. Lewis, and those that had near-death experiences. It's almost impossible to convince an atheist of the existence of God and life after death.

Yes you can, just provide me with a concrete proof from a credible source. By the way near-death-experiences are explained by science and are not supernatural, see source: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ear-death/ .
This is just another example of religion taking advantage of our current ignorance only to be proven wrong in the end. Tsk tsk, what a justification for theocracy.

[Insaanistan]

You do realize he wasn’t a warlord, right?

There is literally no reason to find this funny. History understands he’s not warlord, why don’t you?

[North German Realm]

There is literally no reason to find this funny. History understands he’s not warlord, why don’t you?

History understands that he absolutely was a warlord. Its you Muslims that don't.

[Alta California and Sonora]

There is literally no reason to find this funny. History understands he’s not warlord, why don’t you?

Ya dude I'm pretty sure he was a warlord lmao Islam totally didn't spread on the edge of the sword