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Is religion a necessity for society?

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Region of Dwipantara
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Postby Region of Dwipantara » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:07 pm

Aureumterra wrote:
Region of Dwipantara wrote:Here's my opinion:

1. The Czech republic is a nice and peaceful central European country with good healthcare, high standard of living, and an irreligiousity rate of 72%. Meanwhile, Afghanistan is a totalitarian fundamentalist sh*thole country with quack infrastructure and subsistence-level income. I'm not saying that all religion is bad for society per se, some quite the opposite in fact, but I do say that religion isn't really an important factor.

2. The problem with most religion is that, being a dictatorial commandment from the sky that we must obey or else, they can't evaluate the result of their existence and correct them (or at least efficiently). Humans need principles, sure, but we also need a way to evaluate if those principles makes the world a better place or instead drag ourselves to the 6th century.

Hilarious misunderstanding of most religion

While I do acknowledge that a lot of religion are capable and has been successful at reforms, I maintain that most still slow down those progress. Changing the interpretation of God's words isn't necessarily easy, or certain to be successful, don't you think? Germany lost a third of its population trying to to that.
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Ktismandrasi
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Postby Ktismandrasi » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:21 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:
Ktismandrasi wrote:And the allowance of the LGBT people to live is an example of something coming from the sky? Or is that an example of challenge and evaluation? I am confused...

1. """""God""""" tells people to kill "practitioner" of LGBT, or apostasy, or blasphemy. 6th century people agree because those things seems reasonable. LGBT is 'disgusting', apostasy 'threatens the community', etc etc.

2. Modern world findings: apparently, doing those things is both a) immoral and b) doesn't make the world a better place. Quite the opposite, in fact.

3. God's word is still there and cannot be changed. Society's progress is halted.

Other example involves the status of woman, slavery, democratic structure of governance, criminal justice reforms, healthcare and pseudoscientific beliefs, etc etc.

Alas, it's late and I'm having trouble understanding completely, but here is what I can make out

1. There is God or (as you seem inclined), there is not, so persons become convinced that they need to murder those who are LGBT. Other people are persuaded by reason or something (reason I suppose for the apostate more so) and kill LGBT people. This seems highly specific to Islam however, and maybe not generally applicable. I distinguish in the beginning between God and person because you seem to be describing the situation where a person makes something up (in your view, right) and people start murdering others because of it.

2. Where does morality come from? How do you evaluate what makes the world comparatively better or worse?

3. God's word Is, isn't it, so I suppose there won't be the newest editions or the like. And your criticism about the changing of times seems to level many religions; sacrificing oxen so the gods can bask in their aroma or pouring libations of mixed wine or stoning all seem a bit dated. If I may, that is why I have found Christ to be so much more than the religions which are other, which do often go out of date (sometimes rather spectacularly as the Mormons did, I think in 1972, with their thoughts on race), for the command of love Christ gives us is completely transcendent of time; it is a separation from God to treat anyone poorly, even a woman in ancient Greece, where women had a generally low standing, or an LGBT person in the 1980s, and indeed, God did not merely treat us well through Christ, but he gave us something beyond our ability to pay Him back or even beyond our understanding. That command is timeless, and there is no progress. But what does progress mean when everyone treats you like that?
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:21 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:1. """""God""""" tells people to kill "practitioner" of LGBT, or apostasy, or blasphemy. 6th century people agree because those things seems reasonable. LGBT is 'disgusting', apostasy 'threatens the community', etc etc.


Well if people don't like that they can choose another one.

Region of Dwipantara wrote:2. Modern world findings: apparently, doing those things is both a) immoral and b) doesn't make the world a better place. Quite the opposite, in fact.


Big surprise.

Region of Dwipantara wrote:3. God's word is still there and cannot be changed. Society's progress is halted.


Yes, and think about the intentions there behind that? Eitherways people can choose to abandon that shit.

Region of Dwipantara wrote:Other example involves the status of woman, slavery, democratic structure of governance, criminal justice reforms, healthcare and pseudoscientific beliefs, etc etc.


Its ultimative man who stick to those gods and beliefs and self-reinforce the whole thing.

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Deacarsia
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Is religion a necessity for society?

Postby Deacarsia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:23 pm

Yea, religion is necessary for society. However, it is important that it is the correct religion.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:06 am

Freakoland wrote:So.....is "god" and/or religion a necessity for society?

No.
Religion, of course, can be useful to control a society via fear of retribution and hope in a better world (after death) or supernatural help, but it's not necessary.
Last edited by Risottia on Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:09 am

Freakoland wrote:Something as deeply ingrained as the Orthodox faith is in Slavic society


:rofl:
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:41 am

Deacarsia wrote:Yea, religion is necessary for society. However, it is important that it is the correct religion.

This would be a wonderful argument if it wasn't undermined by little things like reality.
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Cameroi
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Postby Cameroi » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:57 am

i think you have mysticism as more a biproduct of sapient curiosity.
any time you have sapience you're going to have curiousity and speculation about whatever is unknown.
and you're always going to have more unknown then known, if only because there's a big universe out there.
really big, really really big, bigger then that.

and maybe there's something intrinsic to our spirits too.

the unknown being unknown doesn't stop there from being anything,
and self aware beings that are neither physical nor imaginary are not prevented from existing,
simply immeasurable, unprovable, and largely unobservable.

now there's no indebtedness to what people tell each other as to what forms they might take
or what their will might happen to be or what makes them happy or otherwise.

so when you say religion in the context of the question, i have to assume what is meant is beliefs, of all sorts, that touch on the non-physical in some way.

the synopsis is, no, its not required FOR society, but rather it is something any culture is going to spontaneously generate.

all of which is entirely beside the question of whether non-physical sapience might or might not exist.

if you want to have a situation that isn't tyrannical, then it takes some degree of universally mutual consideration.
and really at the heart, core, function, and really justification even, for any belief, is to encourage that.

a lot of popularity of any belief comes out of desperation to live in a world that isn't beset by everyone bullying each other,

then of course i have to ask also what is intended by 'society' and what it 'needs'.

but for a peaceful and considerate social culture, what IS needed is some degree of univerally mutual consideration,
and this is the niche beliefs fill, to encourage that.
Last edited by Cameroi on Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:10 am

Society is necessary for organised religion, not the other way round. Without society religious belief would still exist but be very much individual belief systems.
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The JELLEAIN Republic
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Postby The JELLEAIN Republic » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:12 am

Not nessecary, but does add stability (and in many cases oppression)
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Postby Nazeroth » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:30 am

We are built to be religious, regardless of what high and mighty atheists think

it's spiritualism that is INHERENT in the human mind, we seek answers and find comfort in that spirituality, and honestly, we can see the cons of abandoning spiritualism.

i used to be an atheist now im spiritualistic(no specific religion, but i think i need to live and enjoy the life that has been given to me and that I should have purpose in life and that my journey is also part of being human in a greater cosmic reality)

the one thing i have noticed between large groups of completely atheistic people and religious ones is that the religious have community and unity and the atheistic are often the most depressed/cynical and egotistical people i have ever met. I think spritualism is a human NEED, people NEED an idea that there is more to life than just dying and rotting in the dirt.

note: That being said I do think some religions/faiths are infinity better than others.
Last edited by Nazeroth on Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Moscareinas » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:39 am

one does not need to be an atheist to be cynical and egotistical; the atheism only highlights what is already there
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Postby Europa Undivided » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:41 am

Risottia wrote:
Freakoland wrote:Something as deeply ingrained as the Orthodox faith is in Slavic society


:rofl:
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Postby Nazeroth » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:44 am

Moscareinas wrote:one does not need to be an atheist to be cynical and egotistical; the atheism only highlights what is already there


No but it does certainly seem like they are the most cynical people

how many religous people do you know that constantly cry about how horrible there life is? I can't even think of any off the top of my head.
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Postby Moscareinas » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:50 am

Nazeroth wrote:
Moscareinas wrote:one does not need to be an atheist to be cynical and egotistical; the atheism only highlights what is already there


No but it does certainly seem like they are the most cynical people

how many religous people do you know that constantly cry about how horrible there life is? I can't even think of any off the top of my head.


fair point

but even religious people are not immune to blowing themselves out of all proportion and so imbuing the result with a sense of purpose -- see, for instance, televangelists in general
Last edited by Moscareinas on Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kowani » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:53 am

Nazeroth wrote:
Moscareinas wrote:one does not need to be an atheist to be cynical and egotistical; the atheism only highlights what is already there


No but it does certainly seem like they are the most cynical people

how many religous people do you know that constantly cry about how horrible there life is? I can't even think of any off the top of my head.

...That is quite possible the most anecdotal nonsense I've had the misfortune of hearing.
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Postby Moscareinas » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:55 am

Kowani wrote:
Nazeroth wrote:
No but it does certainly seem like they are the most cynical people

how many religous people do you know that constantly cry about how horrible there life is? I can't even think of any off the top of my head.

...That is quite possible the most anecdotal nonsense I've had the misfortune of hearing.


a tangent: how religious are you spaniards these days? we pinoys are still largely a chip off the old block, but how is the old block?
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Postby Nazeroth » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:58 am

Kowani wrote:
Nazeroth wrote:
No but it does certainly seem like they are the most cynical people

how many religous people do you know that constantly cry about how horrible there life is? I can't even think of any off the top of my head.

...That is quite possible the most anecdotal nonsense I've had the misfortune of hearing.


true though, you can claim that bullshit answer all day but honestly, nobody buys it.

plus your an athiest, so, shocker there :roll:
Last edited by Nazeroth on Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kowani » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:59 am

Moscareinas wrote:
Kowani wrote:...That is quite possible the most anecdotal nonsense I've had the misfortune of hearing.


a tangent: how religious are you spaniards these days? we pinoys are still largely a chip off the old block, but how is the old block?

There is a largeportion of society that is still religious but cultural secularism is very common with young people.
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Postby Moscareinas » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:01 am

Nazeroth wrote:
Kowani wrote:...That is quite possible the most anecdotal nonsense I've had the misfortune of hearing.


true though, you can claim that bullshit answer all day but honestly, nobody buys it.

plus your an athiest, so, shocker there :roll:


dude, i'm atheist too
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Postby Vivolkha » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:02 am

Religion is unnecessary. The simple fact that we must live in a society (because of natural human biology) should be reason enough to develop a moral code. There is no reason why we should involve God there.

The main purpose of religion is to provide comfort against a natural human fear that is death. It provides easy answers to difficult questions, but ultimately religion imposes an arbitrary, irrational, potentially harmful set of rules as an absolute command.
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Region of Dwipantara
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Postby Region of Dwipantara » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:04 am

Nazeroth wrote:We are built to be religious, regardless of what high and mighty atheists think

it's spiritualism that is INHERENT in the human mind, we seek answers and find comfort in that spirituality, and honestly, we can see the cons of abandoning spiritualism.

i used to be an atheist now im spiritualistic(no specific religion, but i think i need to live and enjoy the life that has been given to me and that I should have purpose in life and that my journey is also part of being human in a greater cosmic reality)

the one thing i have noticed between large groups of completely atheistic people and religious ones is that the religious have community and unity and the atheistic are often the most depressed/cynical and egotistical people i have ever met. I think spritualism is a human NEED, people NEED an idea that there is more to life than just dying and rotting in the dirt.

note: That being said I do think some religions/faiths are infinity better than others.


Actually there ARE more to life than just dying and rotting in dirt. Some God may offer us the forbidden gardens of Eden filled with castle, leasure, and 24 hours a day of sex. But that warm feeling of excitement in your blood when you're fighting for what's right, making the world a better place, help others, or pursue your interests are the things that IMO worth more than an eternal static decadence. (Note: this is from my PoV because, well, I was taught that the heaven is filled with such laughable and primitive concept of "happiness" that are very far away from human nature).
Last edited by Region of Dwipantara on Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Voluntua
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Postby Voluntua » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:06 am

No. Religion is a person's relationship to the supernatural; it's a lifestyle, a set of beliefs; and should never be treated as anything else. History has shown us that if one or more nations use religion to unite its people, horrible things happen: those outside of the religion are persecuted, faith-based tribalism (us versus them worldview) increases, ecclesial titles are filled with people who only seek worldly power instead of serving the religion, and the religion usually ceases to be what it really is and transforms into a sign of political stance (for example, gallicans and huguenots, puritans and anglicans, and so on).

That being said by the leader of a nation which is in the top 1% of nations by religiousness.

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Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:06 am

We need something that encourages people to think of the wellbeing of others. Religion can and has served that role reasonable well in the past.
It is not perfect though; see e.g. the response to the current Corona crisis. Some believers volunteer to risk their life to get toiletpaper for the elderly (good), while others storm a closed house of worship so they can be together in prayer, infecting eachother (bad) or claim their magical silver potion will cure you (evil).

There are however not many secular alternatives that fare better. Humanism tries but is impopular. Communism tried harder but failed. Utilitarianism leads to animal rights activists that are more mocked than taken seriously.

So.. as answer to the question... "for now".
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Region of Dwipantara
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Postby Region of Dwipantara » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:10 am

Vivolkha wrote:Religion is unnecessary. The simple fact that we must live in a society (because of natural human biology) should be reason enough to develop a moral code. There is no reason why we should involve God there.

The main purpose of religion is to provide comfort against a natural human fear that is death. It provides easy answers to difficult questions, but ultimately religion imposes an arbitrary, irrational, potentially harmful set of rules as an absolute command.

Yeah, another main problem I have with any unquestionable set of beliefs — it oversimplifies what are actually very complex systems. If human societies are to have a set of guiding principles, they better construct it themseleves, listen to different PoVs and have a way to criticize or evaluate it later. Far better than adhering to random diktats from thousands of years ago of dubious origins.

TL;DR, religions are ideologies and have to be treated as such.
Last edited by Region of Dwipantara on Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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