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Is religion a necessity for society?

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Freakoland
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Postby Freakoland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:39 pm

Sadakoyama wrote:
Freakoland wrote:But what about Russia after Stalin, say under Khrushchev or Gorbachev? I think worship of Stalin was no different than any other megalomania seen in say Hitler's Germany or present-day North Korea. But are these cults of personality really "religious"? I don't think so because they don't qualify to be religious in the sense that they lack the spiritual aspect of religion. Now, if you see religion as not specifically spiritual then that would be interesting for another discussion, but in regards to worship of Stalin replacing worship of God I would challenge you on that supposition.

After Stalin, traditional religion (which never really went away) experienced a resurgence. That's why I suggested looking at a culture evolving out of it rather than an artificially forced change.


Ok I understand now. Yes I agree with that, in the sense that the change from theocracy to government-enforced atheism was artificial.

Something as deeply ingrained as the Orthodox faith is in Slavic society cannot simply be expunged by policy. What I was trying society explicitly and more specifically the governing powers stand on religious matters.

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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:40 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Personally I don't think so. That which religion provides can be provided through other means.

That said, even without it, people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.

At least they don't have laws passed by parliament that punishes anyone who criticizes their laughable (or, in the case of pro-diseasist antivaxx, dangerous) beliefs and put those critics to jail.

Freakoland wrote:
I'm interested by what you said, how people are "going to believe in some stupid shit." Perhaps religion and spirituality are anthropological explainable phenomena. That people are going to believe in something because they want to believe in something. Whatever this "something " is that is where religious wars come in for us to help clarify.


There's more to that than a simple desire to "belive in a dogmatic set of things", actually. Conspiracy theorists are driven by distrust on the (at least from their PoV) all-powerful government who works for the benefit of the few. Islamic terrorists are choked with propaganda about the evils of western/zionist imperialism, how those Evil White People are behind the pain experienced by Muslims in [insert middle eastern hellhole], and how a global caliphate ruled by a Dearest Leader will end those problems.

I recall there was an interesting study that found people who believe in conspiracy theories were statistically more likely to believe in other, unrelated conspiracies. Some people are just more inclined to that way of thinking.
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Region of Dwipantara
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Postby Region of Dwipantara » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:40 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
I don't know about you anon but neither Congress nor Walmart give me a sense of community and belonging lol

Fair enough, I will grant that a sense of community is not something to underestimate and we could learn a thing or two.


Nationalist identity gives a strong feeling of community, though, a lot of times even stronger than religion. Sometimes it unites a place of innumerable diversity into a strong and mutually beneficial bloc. Sometimes, you have a guy with a rectangular moustache going into a bar.
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Ktismandrasi
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Postby Ktismandrasi » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:41 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:
Freakoland wrote:
I think that's interesting what you said in your second point., that religion being a "dictatorial commandment from the sky" or else, in that perhaps religion is just a reflection human nature's desire for some sort of higher authority. People dont really do well in chaos so most people naturally accept a dictorial commandment from the sky. Now that being said I wouldn't say that it is good. People who are able to train themselves out of needing that dictorial commandment in the sky and see the absolute chaos and arbitrariness of the universe and are still able to hold that and be ok with, I think that's where real life begins.


(This is also the reason why I view the Soviet Union as a semi-religion: belief system from the sky [Kremlin] that cannot be challenged or evaluated and is indoctrinated to little children). I think it's more on the "religion is an effective tool to control the masses" thing. If you are a 11th century king ruling over a land of peasants where order is enforced through the sword, having Big Brother on your side greatly helps. An orderly state is much, much preferable to warring warlords. But as time progresses, those systems starts to get outdated and become irritating.

Would astronomy be a religion? It seems to come from the sky, I am powerless to challenge or evaluate it, and it certainly is indoctrinated into little children.

I jest, especially in the middle bit, but what are you talking about, with things coming from the sky beyond evaluation and challenge? Moses came down from the mountain, and Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha walked among men. What do you mean when you say evaluate and challenge? If you mean rationalise, I could understand not being able to rationalise God (which would seem impossible, or at least ill-fitting) but how do you mean you can not challenge God? Why not?

I ask these seriously, if not gently, so please forgive my harshness and take my questions sincerely, since it seems we have separate ideas of religion that I would wish to reconcile, that is to say, I am throwing these questions at you trusting you to defend yourself admirably and well.
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:41 pm

Europa Undivided wrote:
Alvecia wrote:The cognitive flaws of the human brain are quite well known.

Yes.

You're the one that brought up flat earthers.
I was thinking of "alternative" medicines.

"Pseudoscientific"

Oh, if that's the case, you will be ignored.

Are you objecting to the use of the term in general, or specifically as it pertains to religion? If it's the latter, then is it not an advertised feature of religion that it is not scientific? Can't test god, and all that.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:42 pm

Yes, ideally the Catholic Church would have more of a direct influence on American culture but it's a work in progress. The church is my rock, my steward, my friend. That's the kind of joy and enthusiasm that I think is possible for us all, in the best of times and in the worst of times.

Plus, without the Catholic Church there would be no Opus Dei!
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:43 pm

To steal from Sorel, while it may not be necessary to have God or a myth of God to exist, it is important to have a social mythos which is similar to religion in order to construct an ethical narrative which allows society to function normally.
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Freakoland
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Postby Freakoland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:44 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Personally I don't think so. That which religion provides can be provided through other means.

That said, even without it, people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.

At least they don't have laws passed by parliament that punishes anyone who criticizes their laughable (or, in the case of pro-diseasist antivaxx, dangerous) beliefs and put those critics to jail.

Freakoland wrote:
I'm interested by what you said, how people are "going to believe in some stupid shit." Perhaps religion and spirituality are anthropological explainable phenomena. That people are going to believe in something because they want to believe in something. Whatever this "something " is that is where religious wars come in for us to help clarify.


There's more to that than a simple desire to "belive in a dogmatic set of things", actually. Conspiracy theorists are driven by distrust on the (at least from their PoV) all-powerful government who works for the benefit of the few. Islamic terrorists are choked with propaganda about the evils of western/zionist imperialism, how those Evil White People are behind the pain experienced by Muslims in [insert middle eastern hellhole], and how a global caliphate ruled by a Dearest Leader will end those problems.


Touché touché....

But couldn't one argue that those forces such as the evil Western Imperialist and the Zionist are just the antonyms of those deeply held dogmatic beliefs , and that by those very antonyms existing one such as an Islamic terrorist and a dude wearing tinfoil hat living in a trailer in the middle of nowhere is prompted into into a state of extremetism?

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Europa Undivided
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Postby Europa Undivided » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:44 pm

Alvecia wrote:
Europa Undivided wrote:"Pseudoscientific"

Oh, if that's the case, you will be ignored.

Are you objecting to the use of the term in general, or specifically as it pertains to religion? If it's the latter, then is it not an advertised feature of religion that it is not scientific? Can't test god, and all that.

Or is it?
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Region of Dwipantara
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Postby Region of Dwipantara » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:45 pm

Ktismandrasi wrote:
Region of Dwipantara wrote:
(This is also the reason why I view the Soviet Union as a semi-religion: belief system from the sky [Kremlin] that cannot be challenged or evaluated and is indoctrinated to little children). I think it's more on the "religion is an effective tool to control the masses" thing. If you are a 11th century king ruling over a land of peasants where order is enforced through the sword, having Big Brother on your side greatly helps. An orderly state is much, much preferable to warring warlords. But as time progresses, those systems starts to get outdated and become irritating.

Would astronomy be a religion? It seems to come from the sky, I am powerless to challenge or evaluate it, and it certainly is indoctrinated into little children.

I jest, especially in the middle bit, but what are you talking about, with things coming from the sky beyond evaluation and challenge? Moses came down from the mountain, and Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha walked among men. What do you mean when you say evaluate and challenge? If you mean rationalise, I could understand not being able to rationalise God (which would seem impossible, or at least ill-fitting) but how do you mean you can not challenge God? Why not?

I ask these seriously, if not gently, so please forgive my harshness and take my questions sincerely, since it seems we have separate ideas of religion that I would wish to reconcile, that is to say, I am throwing these questions at you trusting you to defend yourself admirably and well.


Simplest example, whether LGBT people should be allowed to live or not. Not a problem in some religion, blood-soaked schism in some other.
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:46 pm

Europa Undivided wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Are you objecting to the use of the term in general, or specifically as it pertains to religion? If it's the latter, then is it not an advertised feature of religion that it is not scientific? Can't test god, and all that.

Or is it?


Uh... religion, the paranormal and most conspiracy theories are rather difficult to test, if not entirely impossible.

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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:47 pm

Europa Undivided wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Are you objecting to the use of the term in general, or specifically as it pertains to religion? If it's the latter, then is it not an advertised feature of religion that it is not scientific? Can't test god, and all that.

Or is it?

Scientific? Religion? It is not. Really quite the opposite.
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Ktismandrasi
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Postby Ktismandrasi » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:48 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:
Ktismandrasi wrote:Would astronomy be a religion? It seems to come from the sky, I am powerless to challenge or evaluate it, and it certainly is indoctrinated into little children.

I jest, especially in the middle bit, but what are you talking about, with things coming from the sky beyond evaluation and challenge? Moses came down from the mountain, and Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha walked among men. What do you mean when you say evaluate and challenge? If you mean rationalise, I could understand not being able to rationalise God (which would seem impossible, or at least ill-fitting) but how do you mean you can not challenge God? Why not?

I ask these seriously, if not gently, so please forgive my harshness and take my questions sincerely, since it seems we have separate ideas of religion that I would wish to reconcile, that is to say, I am throwing these questions at you trusting you to defend yourself admirably and well.


Simplest example, whether LGBT people should be allowed to live or not. Not a problem in some religion, blood-soaked schism in some other.

And the allowance of the LGBT people to live is an example of something coming from the sky? Or is that an example of challenge and evaluation? I am confused...
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:49 pm

Sundiata wrote:Yes, ideally the Catholic Church would have more of a direct influence on American culture but it's a work in progress. The church is my rock, my steward, my friend. That's the kind of joy and enthusiasm that I think is possible for us all, in the best of times and in the worst of times.

Plus, without the Catholic Church there would be no Opus Dei!
I love Opus Dei with all of my heart. :)


Despite having a rather opposite opinion of the Catholic Church, I am very glad that you find so much meaning in the Church and that it brings you energy to go out and do good works.

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Europa Undivided
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Postby Europa Undivided » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:49 pm

Alvecia wrote:
Europa Undivided wrote:Or is it?

Scientific? Religion? It is not. Really quite the opposite.

No.
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Postby Necroghastia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:49 pm

I think people need something to believe in, but that something need not be religion.
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Postby Albrenia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:53 pm

Necroghastia wrote:I think people need something to believe in, but that something need not be religion.


That's one way of looking at it. I just want to leave this vast, savage and cold universe in a slightly less shitty state than I found it. Anything else is just gravy.

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Postby The Emerald Legion » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:53 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:Here's my opinion:

1. The Czech republic is a nice and peaceful central European country with good healthcare, high standard of living, and an irreligiousity rate of 72%. Meanwhile, Afghanistan is a totalitarian fundamentalist sh*thole country with quack infrastructure and subsistence-level income. I'm not saying that all religion is bad for society per se, some quite the opposite in fact, but I do say that religion isn't really an important factor.

2. The problem with most religion is that, being a dictatorial commandment from the sky that we must obey or else, they can't evaluate the result of their existence and correct them (or at least efficiently). Humans need principles, sure, but we also need a way to evaluate if those principles makes the world a better place or instead drag ourselves to the 6th century.


To be fair, the Czech Republic hasn't been invaded by world superpowers repeatedly in the past few decades.
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:54 pm

Europa Undivided wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Scientific? Religion? It is not. Really quite the opposite.

No.

Well damn, mate. You really showed me. I'm totally convinced.
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Freakoland
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Postby Freakoland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:56 pm

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Region of Dwipantara wrote:Here's my opinion:

1. The Czech republic is a nice and peaceful central European country with good healthcare, high standard of living, and an irreligiousity rate of 72%. Meanwhile, Afghanistan is a totalitarian fundamentalist sh*thole country with quack infrastructure and subsistence-level income. I'm not saying that all religion is bad for society per se, some quite the opposite in fact, but I do say that religion isn't really an important factor.

2. The problem with most religion is that, being a dictatorial commandment from the sky that we must obey or else, they can't evaluate the result of their existence and correct them (or at least efficiently). Humans need principles, sure, but we also need a way to evaluate if those principles makes the world a better place or instead drag ourselves to the 6th century.


To be fair, the Czech Republic hasn't been invaded by world superpowers repeatedly in the past few decades.


or also in a state of virtual anarchy lol

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Postby Aureumterra » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:57 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:Here's my opinion:

1. The Czech republic is a nice and peaceful central European country with good healthcare, high standard of living, and an irreligiousity rate of 72%. Meanwhile, Afghanistan is a totalitarian fundamentalist sh*thole country with quack infrastructure and subsistence-level income. I'm not saying that all religion is bad for society per se, some quite the opposite in fact, but I do say that religion isn't really an important factor.

2. The problem with most religion is that, being a dictatorial commandment from the sky that we must obey or else, they can't evaluate the result of their existence and correct them (or at least efficiently). Humans need principles, sure, but we also need a way to evaluate if those principles makes the world a better place or instead drag ourselves to the 6th century.

Hilarious misunderstanding of most religion
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Postby Europa Undivided » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:58 pm

Alvecia wrote:
Europa Undivided wrote:No.

Well damn, mate. You really showed me. I'm totally convinced.

I don't intend to.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:59 pm

Alvecia wrote:
Europa Undivided wrote:Or is it?

Scientific? Religion? It is not. Really quite the opposite.

I don't think they have to be entirely mutually exclusive, I use science to inform my religious views quite a bit.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:59 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Yes, ideally the Catholic Church would have more of a direct influence on American culture but it's a work in progress. The church is my rock, my steward, my friend. That's the kind of joy and enthusiasm that I think is possible for us all, in the best of times and in the worst of times.

Plus, without the Catholic Church there would be no Opus Dei!
I love Opus Dei with all of my heart. :)


Despite having a rather opposite opinion of the Catholic Church, I am very glad that you find so much meaning in the Church and that it brings you energy to go out and do good works.

Thank you, it's a blessing to have this church community in my life who supports good works. If we all knew that Christ was passing us by, so to speak, our deeds would be different.

It's Opus Dei who really solidified that for me.
Last edited by Sundiata on Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Region of Dwipantara
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Postby Region of Dwipantara » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:03 pm

Ktismandrasi wrote:
Region of Dwipantara wrote:
Simplest example, whether LGBT people should be allowed to live or not. Not a problem in some religion, blood-soaked schism in some other.

And the allowance of the LGBT people to live is an example of something coming from the sky? Or is that an example of challenge and evaluation? I am confused...

1. """""God""""" tells people to kill "practitioner" of LGBT, or apostasy, or blasphemy. 6th century people agree because those things seems reasonable. LGBT is 'disgusting', apostasy 'threatens the community', etc etc.

2. Modern world findings: apparently, doing those things is both a) immoral and b) doesn't make the world a better place. Quite the opposite, in fact.

3. God's word is still there and cannot be changed. Society's progress is halted.

Other example involves the status of woman, slavery, democratic structure of governance, criminal justice reforms, healthcare and pseudoscientific beliefs, etc etc.

Freakoland wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:
To be fair, the Czech Republic hasn't been invaded by world superpowers repeatedly in the past few decades.


or also in a state of virtual anarchy lol

Well yeah :p, but the Czech republic also doesn't need religion to survive as a state. Malaysia is religious, but they're also not that bad in terms of standard of living. What this means is that religion isn't a necessity for society.
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