2020 US General Election Thread VI: Covid for VP!

[Everhall]

No, that's just how superpowers keep their prestige. No nation ever became one by taking the moral high ground.

No nation deserves to exist if it doesn't at least try to take that high ground. Nations should be obliterated if they can't have basic humanity.

What exactly do you achieve if you don't support Biden?

[Cisairse]

Without ensuring that all members pay their dues, it becomes impossible for a union to fund the efforts needed to ensure that they can collectively bargain.

Unions did not cease to exist in right to work states so your assertion is counter factual.

They have been declining very seriously, though.

[Shrillland]

Without ensuring that all members pay their dues, it becomes impossible for a union to fund the efforts needed to ensure that they can collectively bargain.

Unions did not cease to exist in right to work states so your assertion is counter factual.

They don't cease to exist but they don't have the means to do much either. In right-to-work states, wages and benefits are smaller than in non-right-to-work states because they don't have the resources to fight in the same way.

[Gormwood]

Again, hilarious that the Party first crowd who tell the rest of us to shut up and support their candidate have the nerve to invoke 'party unity'.

In the end the DNC was more concerned about preserving the Democracy status quo than beating Trump.

So what makes Biden incapable of beating Trump?

The internet memed so.

[Tarsonis]

Y'all already have that. What we need is right to work. Telling workers after you form a union pay 90% of the cost of joining the union or be unemployed is not a choice.

Without ensuring that all members pay their dues, it becomes impossible for a union to fund the efforts needed to ensure that they can collectively bargain.

Maybe the Unions need to do a better job lobbying for membership instead of extorting workers out of their paychecks

[Cisairse]

Again, hilarious that the Party first crowd who tell the rest of us to shut up and support their candidate have the nerve to invoke 'party unity'.

In the end the DNC was more concerned about preserving the Democracy status quo than beating Trump.

So what makes Biden incapable of beating Trump?

Russia says so

[Kruiven]

I'm not choosing between two rapist warmongers for President. It's just not going to happen. I know I said a while ago I'd pick Biden if just for the Supreme Court, but since all those allegations came out, it pushed me over the edge on this.

The worst thing is, a great man like Bernie Sanders has been fighting for the little guy for his entire life and many people are too blinded by their team politics to see what a great loss this is to democracy and the country at large. Perhaps one day we'll all see that he was correct all along. And maybe by then it won't be too late.

Even if Bernie himself tells me to vote for Joe Biden, I still won't.

Amen, as will be the case with more supporters.

[Kargintina the Third]

I'm not choosing between two rapist warmongers for President. It's just not going to happen. I know I said a while ago I'd pick Biden if just for the Supreme Court, but since all those allegations came out, it pushed me over the edge on this.

The worst thing is, a great man like Bernie Sanders has been fighting for the little guy for his entire life and many people are too blinded by their team politics to see what a great loss this is to democracy and the country at large. Perhaps one day we'll all see that he was correct all along. And maybe by then it won't be too late.

Even if Bernie himself tells me to vote for Joe Biden, I still won't.

Amen, as will be the case with more supporters.

You could just write in Bernie

[Everhall]

I'm not choosing between two rapist warmongers for President. It's just not going to happen. I know I said a while ago I'd pick Biden if just for the Supreme Court, but since all those allegations came out, it pushed me over the edge on this.

The worst thing is, a great man like Bernie Sanders has been fighting for the little guy for his entire life and many people are too blinded by their team politics to see what a great loss this is to democracy and the country at large. Perhaps one day we'll all see that he was correct all along. And maybe by then it won't be too late.

Even if Bernie himself tells me to vote for Joe Biden, I still won't.

Amen, as will be the case with more supporters.

What will you accomplish with this?

[Shrillland]

Without ensuring that all members pay their dues, it becomes impossible for a union to fund the efforts needed to ensure that they can collectively bargain.

Maybe the Unions need to do a better job lobbying for membership instead of extorting workers out of their paychecks

Union dues aren't expensive, I've never seen sizable chunks of money removed from my father's paycheques or my mother's pension cheques. And they can't lobby for membership very well with how the current organising system is set up.

[Galloism]

Again, hilarious that the Party first crowd who tell the rest of us to shut up and support their candidate have the nerve to invoke 'party unity'.

In the end the DNC was more concerned about preserving the Democracy status quo than beating Trump.

So what makes Biden incapable of beating Trump?

I wouldn't say incapable, but NAFTA is a giant anchor for Biden.

[New Socialist South Africa]

It won't be my fault if Trump wins again. It'll be the fault of the Democratic Party and the voters for not elevating a better candidate. Nobody is OWED my vote. The blood is on the hands of the people who could have chosen better to start with.

Are you sure about that?

Those numbers are remarkably low all things considered. A Gallup poll from March 2008 found that 28% of Clinton backers said they would back McCain in a race that say Obama vs McCain, and 19% of Obama supporters said they would back McCain in a race of Clinton vs McCain (https://news.gallup.com/poll/105691/mccain-vs-obama-28-clinton-backers-mccain.aspx). 8% to 16% of Sanders supporters supporting Trump is honestly less than I would have expected, particularly given how little Clinton did to appeal to those voters, and how much dirty politics she played.

If Biden wants to win leftist voters, he should reach out to them and promise to fight for at least some of the things they care about at least somewhat. Maybe he comes out for a public option rather than full medicare for all, and says that he would sign a Medicare for All bill if it gets through Congress and gets to his desk as President, rather than saying he would veto a Medicare for all bill even if it got through Congress. He is kind of promising to decriminalise Marijuana and make college tuition free for families who earn under $125 000 a year, which is something. I'm not sure I believe him, and I wish he would go further, but it is something.

His campaign needs to do more to emphasise that if they want Sanders supporters to back him. One of Clinton's big mistakes in 2016 was spending almost all her time telling voters why Trump was bad and almost no time telling voters why she was good, and then trying to appeal to young voters by telling them to "Pokemon go to the polls", which is almost as patronising as it is cringe-worthy.

At some stage, hopefully we can also have an investigation into Tara Reade's sexual assault charge against Joe Biden. If he did sexually assault her, or if there just is never any investigation into it whatsoever, then I wouldn't even consider voting for him even if I had the chance to. I would never vote for Trump either, but that doesn't mean I'd vote for Biden.

From the outside looking in, it often seems like Americans seem to think they can shame voters to voting for them. I find that incredibly dumb. If you want someone to vote for you, give them a reason to vote for you by fighting for the things they believe in. "I'm not the other guy, he is so much worse than me" is a shitty campaign strategy, even in an electoral system where you basically need to be in one of the two major parties to get anywhere.

[Galloism]

Maybe the Unions need to do a better job lobbying for membership instead of extorting workers out of their paychecks

Union dues aren't expensive, I've never seen sizable chunks of money removed from my father's paycheques or my mother's pension cheques.

Tbh, one of the things we could do to drastically increase union representation is to make it deductible above the line.

[Cisairse]

Maybe the Unions need to do a better job lobbying for membership instead of extorting workers out of their paychecks

Union dues aren't expensive, I've never seen sizable chunks of money removed from my father's paycheques or my mother's pension cheques.

It's kinda dumb when you think about it for more than three seconds. You can generally bet that the wage increase you'll see because of your union will beat what you have to pay in dues.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Amen, as will be the case with more supporters.

What will you accomplish with this?

Staying true to their values.

[Genivaria]

No nation deserves to exist if it doesn't at least try to take that high ground. Nations should be obliterated if they can't have basic humanity.

What exactly do you achieve if you don't support Biden?

What exactly do we achieve if we do?

[Gormwood]

So what makes Biden incapable of beating Trump?

I wouldn't say incapable, but NAFTA is a giant anchor for Biden.

Naturally people will be oblivious to the fact that the "new" trade agreement is just NAFTA with a yuge gold TRUMP™ logo embossed on it.

[Zurkerx]

Ah, so he finally dropped out. While he hasn't endorsed Biden, I suspect he will soon, once they come to an agreement on platform; Sanders will have great influence on that. Ultimately, it's up to Sanders' Supporters whether they want to back Biden or not, but Biden needs to earn their vote. How he does that, I'm not totally sure. As an outsider here, however, I would strongly recommend it given Biden is better than Trump by miles despite his flaws.



He actually did well in the last debate he had: Biden does best when it's a one-on-one, and that debate showed it. Of course, people that favor Sanders heavily won't see it that way due to bias while Biden Supporters believe he did excellent (me personally, I give it a tie), but Biden and Sanders held their ground on their respective views.

I too would prefer a Biden presidency over four more years of Trump. In the years 2000, 2004, 2016, moderate Democrats campaigned only to lose the elections of those years respectively. If Biden loses, Sanders supporters will be the ones to blame whether they voted for him or not.

2000 was a controversial year given what transpired: Al Gore would have probably won if I'm being honest. Kerry blew it. However, Obama, while viewed at the time as "left", is really a moderate. Clinton was just disliked and out of touch. Biden, while a moderate, is further left than she is and seems to be willing, to an extent, move "left" more. Now, more Sanders Supporters will back Biden due to knowing what Trump is like so I don't really see how they can be blamed this time around. This election is going to be close, and likely will come down to a 1 percentage point; Michigan Democrats will win back; PA seems possible with Biden at top. It's Wisconsin that should worry them.

[Greed and Death]

Unions did not cease to exist in right to work states so your assertion is counter factual.

They don't cease to exist but they don't have the means to do much either. In right-to-work states, wages and benefits are smaller than in non-right-to-work states because they don't have the resources to fight in the same way.

It is worth noting those that show a ~3% decrease in pay between right to work and forced unionization states always fail to take into account the cost of living being much lower on average in right to work states.

[Everhall]

What will you accomplish with this?

Staying true to their values.

*Shooting their values in the foot

[Galloism]

I wouldn't say incapable, but NAFTA is a giant anchor for Biden.

Naturally people will be oblivious to the fact that the "new" trade agreement is just NAFTA with a yuge gold TRUMP™ logo embossed on it.

Well, there's a couple key elements to the new one that's markedly different than the old. Namely, they get to comply with enforced safety regulations, subject to US inspections, and (and this is somewhat ironic, but stick with me) Mexican workers are required to be allowed to unionize, instead of the union busting Mexico has engaged in the past (quite literally in fact, beating people who tried to form a unions in the literal sense).

All of that will drive up the cost of labor in Mexico, and make it less attractive to outsource there, putting us on a more level playing field.

[Cisairse]

I too would prefer a Biden presidency over four more years of Trump. In the years 2000, 2004, 2016, moderate Democrats campaigned only to lose the elections of those years respectively. If Biden loses, Sanders supporters will be the ones to blame whether they voted for him or not.

2000 was a controversial year given what transpired: Al Gore would have probably won if I'm being honest. Kerry blew it. However, Obama, while viewed at the time as "left", is really a moderate. Clinton was just disliked and out of touch. Biden, while a moderate, is further left than she is and seems to be willing, to an extent, move "left" more. Now, more Sanders Supporters will back Biden due to knowing what Trump is like so I don't really see how they can be blamed this time around. This election is going to be close, and likely will come down to a 1 percentage point; Michigan Democrats will win back; PA seems possible with Biden at top. It's Wisconsin that should worry them.

We don't need WI if we can get NC.

And we don't need NC or PA if we can get FL.

[Kruiven]

Staying true to their values.

*Shooting their values in the foot

No that would be by voting for the guy like Trump. No Biden thanks.

[Genivaria]

So what makes Biden incapable of beating Trump?

I wouldn't say incapable, but NAFTA is a giant anchor for Biden.

Still opposing a universal healthcare system during a fucking pandemic is my issue with Biden.

[Shrillland]

2000 was a controversial year given what transpired: Al Gore would have probably won if I'm being honest. Kerry blew it. However, Obama, while viewed at the time as "left", is really a moderate. Clinton was just disliked and out of touch. Biden, while a moderate, is further left than she is and seems to be willing, to an extent, move "left" more. Now, more Sanders Supporters will back Biden due to knowing what Trump is like so I don't really see how they can be blamed this time around. This election is going to be close, and likely will come down to a 1 percentage point; Michigan Democrats will win back; PA seems possible with Biden at top. It's Wisconsin that should worry them.

We don't need WI if we can get NC.

And we don't need NC or PA if we can get FL.

We likely won't get either WI or FL at this rate. They're both going redder by the day.