2020 US General Election Thread VI: Covid for VP!

[Vassenor]

-eyeroll-

Shit like this is why Bernie supporters get a bad rap.

Enjoy Trump.

Ah yes, the old "Bernie didn't win so we need to abandon everything he stood for to punish the country for not worshipping him" take.

-drinks-

[South Odreria 2]

Enjoy Trump.

Ah yes, the old "Bernie didn't win so we need to abandon everything he stood for to punish the country for not worshipping him" take.

-drinks-

I already said I'm voting for Biden. If you'd rather bash me than help Biden win, that's your decision.

[Ors Might]

Enjoy Trump.

Ah yes, the old "Bernie didn't win so we need to abandon everything he stood for to punish the country for not worshipping him" take.

-drinks-

I still don’t understand how supporting Biden is standing up for what Bernie stood for.

[Telconi]

No need to post this, we already knew you were the problem.

-eyeroll-

Shit like this is why Bernie supporters get a bad rap.

On the contrary, it's one of their few redeeming traits.

[New Socialist South Africa]

Fair enough. Which policies in particular are you hoping that he denounces?

Other posters have gone into detail on this before but the main ones for me are

1. His troubling positions on responding to sexual assault allegations as illustrated in the Dear Colleague letter he had a hand in writing. While it is a good general rule to treat those coming forward with accusations with compassion and understanding, there’s a difference between not being dismissive of accusations and believing accusations regardless of how few details seem to be adding up. The latter is what Biden has argued for in the letter.

2. His gun control policies. I’m going to be honest, I am not in anyway a fan of gun control. While I doubt anyone could roll infringements back completely, I could accept Biden denouncing creating any further infringements. Otherwise he and I just aren’t going to be compatible on this issue.

3. Biden is at best partially complicit in the drone strikes that characterized a significant part of Obama’s administration. While yes he has indicated more restraint in this than Obama did (the interview where this happened escapes me), I would like to see a Biden more committed to lowering the amount of conflicts my nation has a hand in.

Fair enough. Honestly, I do think on point 1 we could have been a lot clearer and just have said that all allegations of rape and sexual assault should be taken seriously and be investigated, that would have saved him a lot of trouble. He could be a lot clearer now, though I'm sure he would be criticised if he did say anything about that, with many on the right, and probably also some on the left, accusing him of back-tracking now that there is a sexual assault allegation against him.

On point 3 I completely agree.

On point 2 I personally disagree. I do think that there should be certain gun control laws. I think if people need to complete a driver's licence in order to prove that they know how to operate a car safely, that it also makes sense for people to complete a really basic practical test to show they know how to load and unload a gun safely, turn the safety on a gun on and off, and explain where they can keep it safely to ensure that a child can't easily access it. That's my personal view though, and it's fine if we disagree on that. I suspect Biden won't denounce gun control laws, though I doubt he will push all that far on implementing new ones either. That might be a sticking point for you, but honestly we will just have to wait and see.

[Cisairse]

https://medium.com/@srwm1138/im-a-bernie-volunteer-here-s-how-joe-biden-can-win-bernie-voters-6da47bbf4d52

This is required reading. If you still don't understand afterwards, you're the problem.

Why is the second "i" in "mitigation" in the second paragraph italicized?

[Ors Might]

Other posters have gone into detail on this before but the main ones for me are

1. His troubling positions on responding to sexual assault allegations as illustrated in the Dear Colleague letter he had a hand in writing. While it is a good general rule to treat those coming forward with accusations with compassion and understanding, there’s a difference between not being dismissive of accusations and believing accusations regardless of how few details seem to be adding up. The latter is what Biden has argued for in the letter.

2. His gun control policies. I’m going to be honest, I am not in anyway a fan of gun control. While I doubt anyone could roll infringements back completely, I could accept Biden denouncing creating any further infringements. Otherwise he and I just aren’t going to be compatible on this issue.

3. Biden is at best partially complicit in the drone strikes that characterized a significant part of Obama’s administration. While yes he has indicated more restraint in this than Obama did (the interview where this happened escapes me), I would like to see a Biden more committed to lowering the amount of conflicts my nation has a hand in.

Fair enough. Honestly, I do think on point 1 we could have been a lot clearer and just have said that all allegations of rape and sexual assault should be taken seriously and be investigated, that would have saved him a lot of trouble. He could be a lot clearer now, though I'm sure he would be criticised if he did say anything about that, with many on the right, and probably also some on the left, accusing him of back-tracking now that there is a sexual assault allegation against him.

On point 3 I completely agree.

On point 2 I personally disagree. I do think that there should be certain gun control laws. I think if people need to complete a driver's licence in order to prove that they know how to operate a car safely, that it also makes sense for people to complete a really basic practical test to show they know how to load and unload a gun safely, turn the safety on a gun on and off, and explain where they can keep it safely to ensure that a child can't easily access it. That's my personal view though, and it's fine if we disagree on that. I suspect Biden won't denounce gun control laws, though I doubt he will push all that far on implementing new ones either. That might be a sticking point for you, but honestly we will just have to wait and see.

Your points could be addressed with comprehensive firearm education starting pretty early in their schooling, something I’ve advocated in the gun control threads, but aside from the questionable ethics in making someone complete a test to exercise their rights, I don’t disagree with your concerns.

Like I said though, Biden actively refusing to go any further on gun control would be enough for me to ignore for the time being that we fundamentally disagree on gun rights. For now I’ll wait and see but I don’t have high hopes.

[New Socialist South Africa]

Fair enough. Honestly, I do think on point 1 we could have been a lot clearer and just have said that all allegations of rape and sexual assault should be taken seriously and be investigated, that would have saved him a lot of trouble. He could be a lot clearer now, though I'm sure he would be criticised if he did say anything about that, with many on the right, and probably also some on the left, accusing him of back-tracking now that there is a sexual assault allegation against him.

On point 3 I completely agree.

On point 2 I personally disagree. I do think that there should be certain gun control laws. I think if people need to complete a driver's licence in order to prove that they know how to operate a car safely, that it also makes sense for people to complete a really basic practical test to show they know how to load and unload a gun safely, turn the safety on a gun on and off, and explain where they can keep it safely to ensure that a child can't easily access it. That's my personal view though, and it's fine if we disagree on that. I suspect Biden won't denounce gun control laws, though I doubt he will push all that far on implementing new ones either. That might be a sticking point for you, but honestly we will just have to wait and see.

Your points could be addressed with comprehensive firearm education starting pretty early in their schooling, something I’ve advocated in the gun control threads, but aside from the questionable ethics in making someone complete a test to exercise their rights, I don’t disagree with your concerns.

Like I said though, Biden actively refusing to go any further on gun control would be enough for me to ignore for the time being that we fundamentally disagree on gun rights. For now I’ll wait and see but I don’t have high hopes.

Fair enough, I'm from a country where owning a gun isn't a right, although a lot of people do go and get licenses to carry them, and where most people are pretty on board with that. I get that its different in the US. Honestly I think comprehensive firearm education in schools is a decent idea, certainly if it was optional and students could opt out if they wanted, and especially if they had a religious or moral objection to handling a gun or weapons more generally.

All we can do with Biden is wait and see.

[Necroghastia]

Ah yes, the old "Bernie didn't win so we need to abandon everything he stood for to punish the country for not worshipping him" take.

-drinks-

I already said I'm voting for Biden. If you'd rather bash me than help Biden win, that's your decision.

Apparently if you don't like Biden and still wish to criticize him you're part of the problem, even if you've already said you're willing to go vote for him over Trump.

But it's the Bernie Bros that can't handle anyone talking smack about their candidate, of course.

[Cisairse]

Damn Democrats, they ruined the Democratic Party!

[Vassenor]

I already said I'm voting for Biden. If you'd rather bash me than help Biden win, that's your decision.

Apparently if you don't like Biden and still wish to criticize him you're part of the problem, even if you've already said you're willing to go vote for him over Trump.

But it's the Bernie Bros that can't handle anyone talking smack about their candidate, of course.

I mean no one seems willing to point to a definite explanation for how he's a guaranteed loss beyond "he's not Sanders". Especially given that he keeps polling stronger against Trump than Hillary did at the same points.

And I'm not the one screeching about how people who dont support Sanders are part of some nebulous problem.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Apparently if you don't like Biden and still wish to criticize him you're part of the problem, even if you've already said you're willing to go vote for him over Trump.

But it's the Bernie Bros that can't handle anyone talking smack about their candidate, of course.

I mean no one seems willing to point to a definite explanation for how he's a guaranteed loss beyond "he's not Sanders". Especially given that he keeps polling stronger against Trump than Hillary did at the same points.

And I'm not the one screeching about how people who dont support Sanders are part of some nebulous problem.

Didn't people already disprove the underlined, using your own graph?

[The Black Forrest]

-eyeroll-

Shit like this is why Bernie supporters get a bad rap.

Enjoy Trump.

Well if you bernie bros sit out again, that’s on you.

[The Black Forrest]

Ah yes, the old "Bernie didn't win so we need to abandon everything he stood for to punish the country for not worshipping him" take.

-drinks-

I still don’t understand how supporting Biden is standing up for what Bernie stood for.

Hmmm? Maybe because Biden has adopted a few things?

My way or nothing will not make change happen....

[Gormwood]

Enjoy Trump.

Well if you bernie bros sit out again, that’s on you.

Hey man, 4 more years of Trump and a conservative majority Supreme Court is the perfect seed for a Progressive Socialist Revolution don't you know?

[Vassenor]

Ah yes, the old "Bernie didn't win so we need to abandon everything he stood for to punish the country for not worshipping him" take.

-drinks-

I still don’t understand how supporting Biden is standing up for what Bernie stood for.

So how is four more years of Trump in keeping with what he wants? Especially since he's batting for Biden now.

[Gormwood]

I still don’t understand how supporting Biden is standing up for what Bernie stood for.

So how is four more years of Trump in keeping with what he wants? Especially since he's batting for Biden now.

Accelerationist fantasy that a GOP lock on government will somehow provoke a progressive uprising and a new golden age of socialism. Nevermind a conservative Supreme Court will strike down any and all progressive laws the GOP challenges in court.

[Cisairse]

So how is four more years of Trump in keeping with what he wants? Especially since he's batting for Biden now.

Accelerationist fantasy that a GOP lock on government will somehow provoke a progressive uprising and a new golden age of socialism. Nevermind a conservative Supreme Court will strike down any and all progressive laws the GOP challenges in court.

Also, if that was the case, then wouldn't the '18 midterm elections been exactly that? Considering the GOP had a lock on government for two years?

I've said this before, but I feel like the bernie bros who think stuff like that are just privileged nonvoters who actually have no stake in the outcome of the election.

[Gormwood]

Accelerationist fantasy that a GOP lock on government will somehow provoke a progressive uprising and a new golden age of socialism. Nevermind a conservative Supreme Court will strike down any and all progressive laws the GOP challenges in court.

Also, if that was the case, then wouldn't the '18 midterm elections been exactly that? Considering the GOP had a lock on government for two years?

I've said this before, but I feel like the bernie bros who actually think stuff like that are just privileged nonvoters who actually have no stake in the outcome of the election.

Slactivists like Ron Paul's fanboys.

[Ngelmish]

https://medium.com/@srwm1138/im-a-bernie-volunteer-here-s-how-joe-biden-can-win-bernie-voters-6da47bbf4d52

This is required reading. If you still don't understand afterwards, you're the problem.

Without litigating Biden at all... this still is making the case that Sanders is basically the only authentic left candidate of the last 5 years and that that, therefore, means "fuck off" is the only possible message in his failure to launch. I think you'd be willing to carve out an exception for Warren to that "only," but is it even conceptually possible that Sanders' isn't meaningfully the only candidate?

The inverse of the insult of forcing Biden down y'all's throat is, if he's such a ludicrously weak candidate, the insult of insisting on a candidate that inspires folks to choose Biden as the marginally superior alternative. I would have preferred a left reformer.

[Idzequitch]

Ah yes, the old "Bernie didn't win so we need to abandon everything he stood for to punish the country for not worshipping him" take.

-drinks-

I still don’t understand how supporting Biden is standing up for what Bernie stood for.

Biden is a fair bit closer to Bernie on the issues than Trump is. Biden isn't Sanders, but if you stand for Bernie-style progressive values, one would think that the guy in the center is far and away preferable to the guy on the far other side of the political spectrum. Yet many Sanders supporters seem to want to throw all semblence of progress away because they didn't get all the progress they hoped for.

[Gormwood]

I still don’t understand how supporting Biden is standing up for what Bernie stood for.

Biden is a fair bit closer to Bernie on the issues than Trump is. Biden isn't Sanders, but if you stand for Bernie-style progressive values, one would think that the guy in the center is far and away preferable to the guy on the far other side of the political spectrum. Yet many Sanders supporters seem to want to throw all semblence of progress away because they didn't get all the progress they hoped for.

People who demand everything or nothing at once wonder why they never get anything at all.

[Cisairse]

I still don’t understand how supporting Biden is standing up for what Bernie stood for.

Biden is a fair bit closer to Bernie on the issues than Trump is. Biden isn't Sanders, but if you stand for Bernie-style progressive values, one would think that the guy in the center is far and away preferable to the guy on the far other side of the political spectrum. Yet many Sanders supporters seem to want to throw all semblence of progress away because they didn't get all the progress they hoped for.

Not even that, they're willing to throw all semblance of progress away because they didn't get the candidate they hoped for, actual issues be damned.

[Vassenor]

I still don’t understand how supporting Biden is standing up for what Bernie stood for.

Biden is a fair bit closer to Bernie on the issues than Trump is. Biden isn't Sanders, but if you stand for Bernie-style progressive values, one would think that the guy in the center is far and away preferable to the guy on the far other side of the political spectrum. Yet many Sanders supporters seem to want to throw all semblence of progress away because they didn't get all the progress they hoped for.

Because they think that kicking the country's head in for not appreciating Sanders enough will make them appreciate Sanders more next time.

[Tarsonis]

https://medium.com/@srwm1138/im-a-bernie-volunteer-here-s-how-joe-biden-can-win-bernie-voters-6da47bbf4d52

This is required reading. If you still don't understand afterwards, you're the problem.

What's hard to understand about a communist whining that America doesnt want communism?