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North Macedonia Officially Becomes 30th Member of NATO

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The Narnian Council
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Postby The Narnian Council » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:19 am

The New California Republic wrote: The situation in Georgia and Ukraine is markedly different from NM. Sure NM has been at loggerheads with Greece for years, but it's not as bad.


Baltenstein wrote:Georgia and Ukraine won't be able to become NATO members as long as they have Russian-occupied break-away territories inside their borders. Since the situation won't likely change...ever, those two countries will probably never join NATO.


That's my point. Simply noting the facts on the ground will not ease the desperation / resentment in these two states.

The situation requires a non-NATO guarantee between these states and the US/EU, establishing some kind of deterrence (not Article 5 but not nothing), yet formalising engagement with Russia. The time is ripe, at least in Ukraine right now.

This one makes North Macedonia's accession look like a piece of cake. This is for a separate discussion though.
Last edited by The Narnian Council on Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:33 pm

Nakena wrote:
Loben The 2nd wrote:Do the Macadon's possess secret ancient manuscripts about defeating a nuclear armed country?

do they at least have the budget to rearm their military for NATO Standards?


The grave of Alexander is supposed to be somewhere in Egypt. (?) So any ancient secrets that may come with it might be there.


Cairo-based archaeologist comes to the rescue!

After Alexander died, his funeral cortege set out for Macedonia, but was hijacked by his former general Ptolemy I, first ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt.

Ptolemy I buried Alexander at Egypt's traditional capital of Memphis, but Alexandria soon took over as the main urban centre of Ptolemaic Egypt, and Ptolemy II moved the body to the coastal capital. Ptolemy IV then moved the body a final time, though keeping it in Alexandria.

Thanks to visits by various Roman emperors from Julius Caesar (alright, technically not an emperor; let's not quibble) onwards, we have a fairly good historical record of the tomb through to the early 3rd century AD, when Caracalla - who was obsessed with Alexander - seems to have shuffled some objects around in the tomb (or at least those objects that hadn't been previously looted by Caligula). After that the details become murky, with some late classical visitors to Alexandria saying they couldn't locate the tomb, but some early Muslim visitors in the early medieval period claiming it was still standing.

The best we can say is that Alexander was eventually buried in Alexandria, and that his tomb became the centre of the Ptolemaic cult of the Divine Alexander. Some 200 years after the Roman conquest of Egypt, it vanishes from the reliable continuous historical record, and there's little hint of why.

Some modern studies have since tried to claim that Alexander was buried in Vergina after all, or perhaps Egypt's Siwa oasis (an important religious centre where some classical sources state Alexander wanted to be buried), but given the fairly good historical record of burial site from the original kidnapping of his body through to the early 3rd century, these seem highly unlikely.

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:31 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
Nakena wrote:
The grave of Alexander is supposed to be somewhere in Egypt. (?) So any ancient secrets that may come with it might be there.


Cairo-based archaeologist comes to the rescue!

After Alexander died, his funeral cortege set out for Macedonia, but was hijacked by his former general Ptolemy I, first ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt.

Ptolemy I buried Alexander at Egypt's traditional capital of Memphis, but Alexandria soon took over as the main urban centre of Ptolemaic Egypt, and Ptolemy II moved the body to the coastal capital. Ptolemy IV then moved the body a final time, though keeping it in Alexandria.

Thanks to visits by various Roman emperors from Julius Caesar (alright, technically not an emperor; let's not quibble) onwards, we have a fairly good historical record of the tomb through to the early 3rd century AD, when Caracalla - who was obsessed with Alexander - seems to have shuffled some objects around in the tomb (or at least those objects that hadn't been previously looted by Caligula). After that the details become murky, with some late classical visitors to Alexandria saying they couldn't locate the tomb, but some early Muslim visitors in the early medieval period claiming it was still standing.

The best we can say is that Alexander was eventually buried in Alexandria, and that his tomb became the centre of the Ptolemaic cult of the Divine Alexander. Some 200 years after the Roman conquest of Egypt, it vanishes from the reliable continuous historical record, and there's little hint of why.

Some modern studies have since tried to claim that Alexander was buried in Vergina after all, or perhaps Egypt's Siwa oasis (an important religious centre where some classical sources state Alexander wanted to be buried), but given the fairly good historical record of burial site from the original kidnapping of his body through to the early 3rd century, these seem highly unlikely.


Alexander the Great was born in Macedonia right?

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:48 pm

The Narnian Council wrote:
The New California Republic wrote: The situation in Georgia and Ukraine is markedly different from NM. Sure NM has been at loggerheads with Greece for years, but it's not as bad.


Baltenstein wrote:Georgia and Ukraine won't be able to become NATO members as long as they have Russian-occupied break-away territories inside their borders. Since the situation won't likely change...ever, those two countries will probably never join NATO.


That's my point. Simply noting the facts on the ground will not ease the desperation / resentment in these two states.

The situation requires a non-NATO guarantee between these states and the US/EU, establishing some kind of deterrence (not Article 5 but not nothing), yet formalising engagement with Russia. The time is ripe, at least in Ukraine right now.

This one makes North Macedonia's accession look like a piece of cake. This is for a separate discussion though.


That is nearly impossible because Russia would be violently against such an agreement.
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:12 pm

San Lumen wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
Cairo-based archaeologist comes to the rescue!

After Alexander died, his funeral cortege set out for Macedonia, but was hijacked by his former general Ptolemy I, first ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt.

Ptolemy I buried Alexander at Egypt's traditional capital of Memphis, but Alexandria soon took over as the main urban centre of Ptolemaic Egypt, and Ptolemy II moved the body to the coastal capital. Ptolemy IV then moved the body a final time, though keeping it in Alexandria.

Thanks to visits by various Roman emperors from Julius Caesar (alright, technically not an emperor; let's not quibble) onwards, we have a fairly good historical record of the tomb through to the early 3rd century AD, when Caracalla - who was obsessed with Alexander - seems to have shuffled some objects around in the tomb (or at least those objects that hadn't been previously looted by Caligula). After that the details become murky, with some late classical visitors to Alexandria saying they couldn't locate the tomb, but some early Muslim visitors in the early medieval period claiming it was still standing.

The best we can say is that Alexander was eventually buried in Alexandria, and that his tomb became the centre of the Ptolemaic cult of the Divine Alexander. Some 200 years after the Roman conquest of Egypt, it vanishes from the reliable continuous historical record, and there's little hint of why.

Some modern studies have since tried to claim that Alexander was buried in Vergina after all, or perhaps Egypt's Siwa oasis (an important religious centre where some classical sources state Alexander wanted to be buried), but given the fairly good historical record of burial site from the original kidnapping of his body through to the early 3rd century, these seem highly unlikely.


Alexander the Great was born in Macedonia right?


Alexander the Great was born in Pella, capital of the Classical-era pre-Roman kingdom of Macedon, in 356 BC. That kingdom had been fairly small, more or less limited to the immediate hinterland of modern Thessaloniki (though note the latter city wasn't founded until the reign of Cassander, several decades after the events we're talking about here) until the reign of Alexander's father Phillip II, who initiated a substantial expansion of his kingdom.

It's therefore only really the relatively brief period c.350 - c.170 BC that the original Macedonian kingdom encompassed much of the modern region of Macedonia, though the Roman province(s) of Macedonia, and later the Diocese of the same name, would cover much of the modern region until the region was overrun by Slavs in the early 7th century. Byzantine 'Macedonia' was actually in Thrace, straddling the border between modern European Turkey and northeastern Greece. After that the term more of less fell out of use until the 19th century.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:16 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
Nakena wrote:
The grave of Alexander is supposed to be somewhere in Egypt. (?) So any ancient secrets that may come with it might be there.


Cairo-based archaeologist comes to the rescue!

After Alexander died, his funeral cortege set out for Macedonia, but was hijacked by his former general Ptolemy I, first ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt.

Ptolemy I buried Alexander at Egypt's traditional capital of Memphis, but Alexandria soon took over as the main urban centre of Ptolemaic Egypt, and Ptolemy II moved the body to the coastal capital. Ptolemy IV then moved the body a final time, though keeping it in Alexandria.

Thanks to visits by various Roman emperors from Julius Caesar (alright, technically not an emperor; let's not quibble) onwards, we have a fairly good historical record of the tomb through to the early 3rd century AD, when Caracalla - who was obsessed with Alexander - seems to have shuffled some objects around in the tomb (or at least those objects that hadn't been previously looted by Caligula). After that the details become murky, with some late classical visitors to Alexandria saying they couldn't locate the tomb, but some early Muslim visitors in the early medieval period claiming it was still standing.

The best we can say is that Alexander was eventually buried in Alexandria, and that his tomb became the centre of the Ptolemaic cult of the Divine Alexander. Some 200 years after the Roman conquest of Egypt, it vanishes from the reliable continuous historical record, and there's little hint of why.

Some modern studies have since tried to claim that Alexander was buried in Vergina after all, or perhaps Egypt's Siwa oasis (an important religious centre where some classical sources state Alexander wanted to be buried), but given the fairly good historical record of burial site from the original kidnapping of his body through to the early 3rd century, these seem highly unlikely.

So what parking lot did you stick this one under?
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Postby San Lumen » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:17 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Alexander the Great was born in Macedonia right?


Alexander the Great was born in Pella, capital of the Classical-era pre-Roman kingdom of Macedon, in 356 BC. That kingdom had been fairly small, more or less limited to the immediate hinterland of modern Thessaloniki (though note the latter city wasn't founded until the reign of Cassander, several decades after the events we're talking about here) until the reign of Alexander's father Phillip II, who initiated a substantial expansion of his kingdom.

It's therefore only really the relatively brief period c.350 - c.170 BC that the original Macedonian kingdom encompassed much of the modern region of Macedonia, though the Roman province(s) of Macedonia, and later the Diocese of the same name, would cover much of the modern region until the region was overrun by Slavs in the early 7th century. Byzantine 'Macedonia' was actually in Thrace, straddling the border between modern European Turkey and northeastern Greece. After that the term more of less fell out of use until the 19th century.

Thank you for the history listen. Iv'e always found it fascinating

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:21 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
Cairo-based archaeologist comes to the rescue!

After Alexander died, his funeral cortege set out for Macedonia, but was hijacked by his former general Ptolemy I, first ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt.

Ptolemy I buried Alexander at Egypt's traditional capital of Memphis, but Alexandria soon took over as the main urban centre of Ptolemaic Egypt, and Ptolemy II moved the body to the coastal capital. Ptolemy IV then moved the body a final time, though keeping it in Alexandria.

Thanks to visits by various Roman emperors from Julius Caesar (alright, technically not an emperor; let's not quibble) onwards, we have a fairly good historical record of the tomb through to the early 3rd century AD, when Caracalla - who was obsessed with Alexander - seems to have shuffled some objects around in the tomb (or at least those objects that hadn't been previously looted by Caligula). After that the details become murky, with some late classical visitors to Alexandria saying they couldn't locate the tomb, but some early Muslim visitors in the early medieval period claiming it was still standing.

The best we can say is that Alexander was eventually buried in Alexandria, and that his tomb became the centre of the Ptolemaic cult of the Divine Alexander. Some 200 years after the Roman conquest of Egypt, it vanishes from the reliable continuous historical record, and there's little hint of why.

Some modern studies have since tried to claim that Alexander was buried in Vergina after all, or perhaps Egypt's Siwa oasis (an important religious centre where some classical sources state Alexander wanted to be buried), but given the fairly good historical record of burial site from the original kidnapping of his body through to the early 3rd century, these seem highly unlikely.

So what parking lot did you stick this one under?

It'd actually be hilarious if the remains of another famous ruler happened to be found under a car park.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:34 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:So what parking lot did you stick this one under?

It'd actually be hilarious if the remains of another famous ruler happened to be found under a car park.

I wouldnt put it past him.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:02 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:Some modern studies have since tried to claim that Alexander was buried in Vergina after all, or perhaps Egypt's Siwa oasis (an important religious centre where some classical sources state Alexander wanted to be buried), but given the fairly good historical record of burial site from the original kidnapping of his body through to the early 3rd century, these seem highly unlikely.

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:34 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
Cairo-based archaeologist comes to the rescue!

After Alexander died, his funeral cortege set out for Macedonia, but was hijacked by his former general Ptolemy I, first ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt.

Ptolemy I buried Alexander at Egypt's traditional capital of Memphis, but Alexandria soon took over as the main urban centre of Ptolemaic Egypt, and Ptolemy II moved the body to the coastal capital. Ptolemy IV then moved the body a final time, though keeping it in Alexandria.

Thanks to visits by various Roman emperors from Julius Caesar (alright, technically not an emperor; let's not quibble) onwards, we have a fairly good historical record of the tomb through to the early 3rd century AD, when Caracalla - who was obsessed with Alexander - seems to have shuffled some objects around in the tomb (or at least those objects that hadn't been previously looted by Caligula). After that the details become murky, with some late classical visitors to Alexandria saying they couldn't locate the tomb, but some early Muslim visitors in the early medieval period claiming it was still standing.

The best we can say is that Alexander was eventually buried in Alexandria, and that his tomb became the centre of the Ptolemaic cult of the Divine Alexander. Some 200 years after the Roman conquest of Egypt, it vanishes from the reliable continuous historical record, and there's little hint of why.

Some modern studies have since tried to claim that Alexander was buried in Vergina after all, or perhaps Egypt's Siwa oasis (an important religious centre where some classical sources state Alexander wanted to be buried), but given the fairly good historical record of burial site from the original kidnapping of his body through to the early 3rd century, these seem highly unlikely.

So what parking lot did you stick this one under?


Well.... I've been to Alexandria of course; it's only an easy 3 1/2 hour train ride from Cairo. And I have, as it happens, been to the Greek cathedral in Alexandria to attend a service with some of the last remaining Alexandrian Greeks.

As a best guess, I'd put the original tomb somewhere near modern Salah Mostafa Street, maybe roughly near the corner of San Saba Street. No actual car park there, though plenty of people park along the street(s), of course.

Not that I'm anywhere close to certain; that's just a rough guess. But then no one expected to find Richard III in the very first trench they excavated at the Greyfriars site, right underneath a parking spot painted with a great big 'R' (for 'reserved'; or so they say). So the obvious thing to do is walk up and down Salah Mostafa looking for a parking spot painted with a great big alif (the Arabic ا).

Who wants to fund me?

And to try and make this vaguely relevant to the thread.... Imagine how happy both Athens and Skopje would be if I succeeded! And the Egyptians would be thrilled too.... think of the tourist publicity; once tourism returns to normal, of course.




The New California Republic wrote:It'd actually be hilarious if the remains of another famous ruler happened to be found under a car park.


Och, laddie; did ye nae ken aboot the Red Herring?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23993363
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:50 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Page
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Postby Page » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:45 am

I assume this would have happened like 30 years ago if not for the ridiculously petty name dispute.
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Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia
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Postby Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:40 am

Page wrote:I assume this would have happened like 30 years ago if not for the ridiculously petty name dispute.

Considering that North Macedonia (AKA FYROM)'s VMRO-DPMNE regime blatantly tried to plagiarize and rewrite history in order to imply Ancient Hellenic symbols such as the Vergina Sun and figures such as Philip II and Alexander the Great were actually Slavic, I don't think the dispute was "petty", at least not from the side of the Greeks.
Last edited by Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia on Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:41 am, edited 4 times in total.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:32 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:It'd actually be hilarious if the remains of another famous ruler happened to be found under a car park.


Och, laddie; did ye nae ken aboot the Red Herring?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23993363

It's exactly these kinds of corpse shenanigans which makes me opt for cremation as the preferred method of disposing my corpse when I eventually kick the bucket.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:15 pm

The Rich Port wrote:Maybe Europe can take over for itself ever since Trump did the big brain move of letting Russia exert it's homophobic insecurity over the entirety of the Old World.

I'll give the fool some credit on one point: Europe should build up it's military. An armed and trained democracy is a secure and disciplined democracy, bolstered against tyranny.


Bullshit - Europe is all too eager to enmesh itself with Russia. Nationalistic Eastern Euros and American sanctions are what's preventing them. Germany and France see Russia as a massive market waiting to be tapped and Russian exporters see Western Europeans as customers. Germany would abandon NATO in a heartbeat if there weren't thousands of the US soldiers in their country.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:02 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:

Och, laddie; did ye nae ken aboot the Red Herring?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23993363

It's exactly these kinds of corpse shenanigans which makes me opt for cremation as the preferred method of disposing my corpse when I eventually kick the bucket.


A parking lot as a final resting place isnt looking so bad now, eh?
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:39 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:Maybe Europe can take over for itself ever since Trump did the big brain move of letting Russia exert it's homophobic insecurity over the entirety of the Old World.

I'll give the fool some credit on one point: Europe should build up it's military. An armed and trained democracy is a secure and disciplined democracy, bolstered against tyranny.


Bullshit - Europe is all too eager to enmesh itself with Russia. Nationalistic Eastern Euros and American sanctions are what's preventing them. Germany and France see Russia as a massive market waiting to be tapped and Russian exporters see Western Europeans as customers. Germany would abandon NATO in a heartbeat if there weren't thousands of the US soldiers in their country.


Umm Germany could just ask those soldiers to leave if it wanted. It wants those soldiers there.
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But that is a non sequitur really, Europe building up its own military forces would not necessarily be mutually exclusive with economic relations with Russia.
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Postby Aureumterra » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:42 pm

Page wrote:I assume this would have happened like 30 years ago if not for the ridiculously petty name dispute.

I’m sure completely stealing a country’s heritage and history and appropriating into your own is a petty thing
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Auze
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Postby Auze » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:24 pm

Page wrote:I assume this would have happened like 30 years ago if not for the ridiculously petty name dispute.

Considering North Macedonia didn’t exist as an independent nation 30 years ago, that’d be impressive.
Last edited by Auze on Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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