NationStates

Australian rePublic wrote:Do you think that this will kill the SJW/political correctness movement once and for all

Err....how?

Australian rePublic wrote:

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
None of those is realistic. Taiwan and whose army?

I do expect there will be democracy in China some day, but it will be decades in the future. It may not even be possible in such a large-pop country (bearing in mind India where democracy is less than ideal) so they may have to devolve power to the provinces and form a federation. Though as the US shows us, that is less than ideal too.

Flawed democracy is better than the clusterfuck they have now

What they have now is bizarre combination of unregulated capitalism and Mao's police state. Only half of that is really odious to me, but I think we have to live with it as long as China doesn't invade its neighbours.

Now a disclaimer. I'm 55 years old, childless, and all the people I care about are as old or older. I actually don't care what happens to Australia thirty years from now, and I'm shameless about it. I don't worry about things that I won't be around to worry about.

Alvecia wrote:

Australian rePublic wrote:Do you think that this will kill the SJW/political correctness movement once and for all

Err....how?

Once you've punched a disabled person in the face to get their toilet paper, you can't go online and pretend to be a saint.

Australian rePublic wrote:Do you think that this will kill the SJW/political correctness movement once and for all

I don't think so. People will still find ways to be needlessly offended during and after this.

Alvecia wrote:

Australian rePublic wrote:Do you think that this will kill the SJW/political correctness movement once and for all

Err....how?

For starters, the concept of cultural relativism will show its consequences. Secondly, people will start callimg out people who scream blind racism to anyone who tries to call China out for their bullshit, and thirdly, people have actual things to worry about, so they don't need to invent imagi ary ones

Australian rePublic wrote:

Alvecia wrote:Err....how?

For starters, the concept of cultural relativism will show its consequences. Secondly, people will start callimg out people who scream blind racism to anyone who tries to call China out for their bullshit, and thirdly, people have actual things to worry about, so they don't need to invent imagi ary ones

I think you underestimate the persistence of fools

Alvecia wrote:

Australian rePublic wrote:For starters, the concept of cultural relativism will show its consequences. Secondly, people will start callimg out people who scream blind racism to anyone who tries to call China out for their bullshit, and thirdly, people have actual things to worry about, so they don't need to invent imagi ary ones

I think you underestimate the persistence of fools

Yea, but the movement was already dying. This will be the final nail in the coffin

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:

Australian rePublic wrote:Interesting. The sooner Xi Jinping is gone, the better

Don't wish for that. You could get someone worse.

Or the people of China get democracy. Though it’s more likely that if Xi goes the entire apparatus is going down with him. So we are probably going to see warlord era 2.0

Thermodolia wrote:

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Don't wish for that. You could get someone worse.

Or the people of China get democracy. Though it’s more likely that if Xi goes the entire apparatus is going down with him. So we are probably going to see warlord era 2.0

On the list of possible alternatives to Xi, I think democracy is down the Very Unlikely end of the list. But if it makes you happy.

Alvecia wrote:

Australian rePublic wrote:Do you think that this will kill the SJW/political correctness movement once and for all

Err....how?

Because they fell victim to Chinese propoganda and began claiming that it's racist to point out the origin of this disease. They were so gullible that they ended up defending an autocracy.

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:

Thermodolia wrote:Or the people of China get democracy. Though it’s more likely that if Xi goes the entire apparatus is going down with him. So we are probably going to see warlord era 2.0

On the list of possible alternatives to Xi, I think democracy is down the Very Unlikely end of the list. But if it makes you happy.

Yeah China doesn't really have much of a history of democracy. Statism and tyranny is kinda the default system of governance there, going back thousands of years.

What do I think will happen? Still too early to say for sure. But this isn't an end of the world, end or civilization or even an end of society level event. Maybe if the virus was about ~10% more lethal, it might have been able to make a move on current society. What I would like to see happen and in some cases NEEDS to happen:

The world comes to understand that we're are not ready to safely open our borders so completely that we can't control them anymore... even in an outbreak. With it needs to come a view of air travel which doesn't see it as being so important that we would only ever even THINK about stopping it in the worst of the very worst cases. (and even then with the least possible effort to enforce it) Trade is the only serious international type of travel that could be seen as essential. Special agreements and preparations need to be put in place to ensure important trade can continue in an outbreak without threat of spreading the illness. (market "OFW LTLWI" needs to be invoked here likely. more on that later) The idea that the global economy collapses because some business men and women can't make that monthly trip half way around the world for a few months, is ****ing absurd! (not saying people are necessarily claiming such, just pointing it out) Tourism is a luxury (OFW LTLWI) it's not the world or rest of society's fault that you setup your industry on a single thing, with no secondary possible backup plans. Life or death > luxury.

There should also be a demand (even legally) for the return home of all production of the items a country uses and a legal mandate for the return of all important production. (medical, defense, electronics, production equipment, food etc) International trade should mostly be for regional goods (like media, some types of food items and raw materials) and in things smaller countries can't produce themselves. (OC trade in everything would be allowed, but for a price near~equal to the cost locally... so sane free trade, instead of current trade ideology) At the very utmost least, it should never be allowed to stay in a single country! Especially a totalitarian a/o authoritarian one!

The WHO NEEDS to be disbanded/replaced or at least completely cleared out from top to bottom and reworked. No politics, ideology or economics, only medicine! More than just heads need to roll at the very least! International orgs (UN etc) in general need to be fixed or dropped. Or at least leading to a long overdue rethinking. (the idea that we work with and allow authoritarian/totalitarian countries and others that stone rape victims to death or refuse to allow women to leave the house alone, into these organizations, with voting power no less, is an exercise in literal insanity! Unfortunately, no more or less so than the idea that these orgs are in anyway steppingstones to world government.) Governments need to sign more one-to-one agreements on issues dealing with outbreaks and other such risks. Particularly international travel! (like how to deal with cruise ships and air travel etc)

Most importantly, a PAINFUL (see "OFW LTLWI") top-to-bottom-bottom-to-top rethinking of how we as societies deal with future risk, especially random "only a matter of time" type risks! Because the current way we deal and prepare for risk is criminal. If it's going to happen, or if it happening can cost major loss of life and breakdown of society, then it needs to be dealt with now not later! Basically, if the speed or circumstances of an event are too great to deal with during said event, then government and others should be legally required to plan and prepare immediately. No more "putting off today what costs a lot, to worry about later instead." (see current outbreak and the global lack of medical supplies, equipment and meds.. or even plan B's. to name only the basics) The other half of our risk/threat problems come once the event begins. As we've seen here with corona, nobody wants/feels the need/is forced to do anything unless and until it's already clear that it should have been done already! (school closings, travel bans, event cancelling, emergency actions, lockdowns, quarantines etc.) And then even when something is done, it's usually ill planned or not thought about at all. (see closing down non-necessities but leaving schools open just because. etc) That shit needs to change. Planning as well as legally demanded actions need to be looked at and considered! We generally suck with risk.. We ignore inevitabilities like outbreaks, solarflare caused EMPs and other such things... While other "threats" need only be theoretical to move the world,.. if they have a popular enough ideology/activists behind them. Hopefully this makes certain people come rejoin reality, about actual risks and threats facing the world. To help deal with the actual risks and dangers that where and are ALWAYS sitting right in front of us!

Finally.. "OFW LTLWI" = Oh-fucking-well, learn to live with it! It's a concept that many are going to need to get accustomed to. The market is going to have a fit, but it was it's "wisdom" that got us here in the first place! But it'll learn to deal eventually. And if not...it's about time we did away with the ruinous idiocy that is the concept of "businesses/companies as a commodity" anyway! Take things back to sane standards. (of profit, not eternally increasing profits at all costs or else)

Honestly I think we will go right back to our idiocy soon enough.
Although I hope people finally realize just how dangerous, fragile and stupid our global supply chain is, and how it completely fails in a crisis, too many people have invested too much in their lies to admit the truth and actually change.

Novus America wrote:Honestly I think we will go right back to our idiocy soon enough.
Although I hope people finally realize just how dangerous, fragile and stupid our global supply chain is, and how it completely fails in a crisis, too many people have invested too much in their lies to admit the truth and actually change.

I believe there will if there isnt already a change in mentality regards to lack of redundancy and fragile supply lines. It might be one big takeaway from the crisis.

Nakena wrote:

Novus America wrote:Honestly I think we will go right back to our idiocy soon enough.
Although I hope people finally realize just how dangerous, fragile and stupid our global supply chain is, and how it completely fails in a crisis, too many people have invested too much in their lies to admit the truth and actually change.

I believe there will if there isnt already a change in mentality regards to lack of redundancy and fragile supply lines. It might be one big takeaway from the crisis.

I hope you are right, but neoliberal “free trade” (when it actually as currently practiced fails to meet the criteria laid out by early advocates for free trade) has become an article of religious faith, not of practicality or logic, and corporations have sunk hundreds of billions of dollars into it.

I fear the combination of religious dogma sunk costs will be too much for this one crisis showing the failures to overcome.

Thermodolia wrote:

Cisairse wrote:
Yeah. Humans will be damned if we give away our society for a virus that isn't even airborne.

About that

"Survives in the air" doesn't mean it's airborne.

Novus America wrote:

Nakena wrote:
I believe there will if there isnt already a change in mentality regards to lack of redundancy and fragile supply lines. It might be one big takeaway from the crisis.

I hope you are right, but neoliberal “free trade” (when it actually as currently practiced fails to meet the criteria laid out by early advocates for free trade) has become an article of religious faith, not of practicality or logic, and corporations have sunk hundreds of billions of dollars into it.

I fear the combination of religious dogma sunk costs will be too much for this one crisis showing the failures to overcome.

Depends how bad it gets.

Nakena wrote:

Novus America wrote:
I hope you are right, but neoliberal “free trade” (when it actually as currently practiced fails to meet the criteria laid out by early advocates for free trade) has become an article of religious faith, not of practicality or logic, and corporations have sunk hundreds of billions of dollars into it.

I fear the combination of religious dogma sunk costs will be too much for this one crisis showing the failures to overcome.

Depends how bad it gets.

True, but I am not sure this is bad enough.
I mean I want it to die, but have become disillusioned as it has steamrolled across the world, leaving devastation behind and people cheer it on.

As petrol pumps become 100% full, India stores oil at sea

• The country’s oil-product demand in April declined about 70% from a year earlier, Dharmendra Pradhan said
• India’s use of what’s known as floating storage comes as all its onshore storage options run out

State-run and private processors are now holding seven million tons -- equivalent of more than 50 million barrels -- on-board tankers out at sea, the minister said in a Facebook post. The refiners are doing so amid a collapse in crude prices that saw the world’s top benchmark lose more than 60% of its value this year and U.S. West Texas Intermediate plunge into negative territory.

Oil has slumped due to a combination of collapsing consumption from the coronavirus outbreak and a short-lived price war between Saudi Arabia and Russia that forced other producers to slash prices.

India is the world’s third biggest consumer of oil and imports more than 80% of its crude, which is typically the biggest expense on its trade bill.
Indian refiners are taking advantage of cheap oil to bulk up its supplies even as every corner of the nation’s onshore storage tanks fills to the brim, according to Oil Minister Dharmendra Pradhan.

Dunno, but having loads of oil tanks floating offshore on stationary positions don't seem failproof, what if a storm arrives?

That aside, India seems to be making good use of the low oil prices, economically speaking, given their usual usage.

What we've been seeing are some supply chains breaking down and general disruptions for certain things. It shows that the status quo before anything happened wasn't good. Masks for example, can't be found anywhere because there was too much of a reliance on China producing all of it. Not every job can be done via the internet or from home. So we're seeing stuff that needs doing not getting done to some extent. The real effect of what happens when people stop working.

We don't yet have machines that can do everything for us, and enable everyone to live like kings. The technology we do have are more like tools or just do things at a faster rate or produce greater output than what can be gotten by hand.

Alvecia wrote:

Australian rePublic wrote:Do you think that this will kill the SJW/political correctness movement once and for all

Err....how?

"Build bridges, not walls" they said as open borders allowed a deadly virus to only spread faster.

Rojava Free State wrote:

Alvecia wrote:Err....how?

"Build bridges, not walls" they said as open borders allowed a deadly virus to only spread faster.

Although border walls don't stop legal tourists and trade, which were the main vector of the spread. Chinese, American and European tourists basically are the ones who spread it across the globe, not illegal immigrants to my knowledge.

Rojava Free State wrote:

Alvecia wrote:Err....how?

"Build bridges, not walls" they said as open borders allowed a deadly virus to only spread faster.

What's being implied here? That travel restrictions are going to make people less inclusive? More racist/sexist/homophobic/etc?

Nakena wrote:"...as long as we are confined to a single planet we're within a closed system that can be affected by global (Climate change? max extinctions, totalitarian belief systems such as Islam or Communism gaining total control etc.) or outer factors. (Giant Meteor?) To guarantee long term survival it is thus necessary to diversify beyond this confinement..."

The problem is maintaining the goal of building a space colony long enough to actually do it. Compare it to why Europe colonized the world instead of China, we know exactly why, they trashed their own fleet. The reason being it was the vanity project of one faction, then when that faction fell out of power, its successor scrapped the project. Kind of like how NASA can't get anything done because every time there's a new president the 8 years they spent working on the old president's space directive gets scrapped. Congress is to blame too, and NASA's bureaucracy doesn't help, but the fact is hundreds of billions of dollars have gone to waste because new presidents and/or new congresses scrap the vanity projects of their predecessors. We look at those late-medieval Chinese ships and think "why the hell didn't they go to the Americas, since they obviously had the technology," but at the same time NASA hasn't been to Mars nor built a Moon base nor captured an asteroid, all for similar if not identical reasons. You don't only need to have so much power that you can adequately fund the magaproject, but to keep holding onto that power for an extended period of time until it completes. That's so difficult that when it does happen you make history.

Australian rePublic wrote:I'll go whatever name goves Xi Jinping the shits. I think that's CCP virus

>Wu Flu
>Kung Flu
>Chinobyl
>WuHu Flu
>Wumonia
>Holocough
>Chinapox
>Boomerpox
>Xi Jinplague
>Winnie the Flu
>Xinnie the Flu
>Wubonic Plague
>Communist Lung Herpes
>Boomer Blight
>Gulaglung
>Commiepox
>Bat Soup Croup
>Lung Pao Sicken
>Wu-Ping Cough
>Pangolin Pandemic
>Mandate of Heaving
>The Shaolin Sneeze
>Wet Market Surprise
>Sweet and Sour Sicken
>China's One Corpse Policy
>SARS-CoV-2: Alveolar Boogaloo
>Geezer Wheezer
>Boomer Consumer
>Oldtimerflatliner
>Boomerbonic Plague

The global economy will recover with time as will the travel and tourism industries. People might be a bit more conscious about hygiene and wearing masks out in public won't be seen as being out of the ordinary. Of course, knowing humanity these changes will be will probably die out within a few years and after perhaps a decade, the pandemic will be seen as just a distant memory that hardly anyone thinks about.