by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:38 am
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.
by Page » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:52 am
by Riria » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:16 am
Page wrote:and I think those who are incarcerated should be treated humanely in the way that is seen in Norway.
by Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:34 pm
by Albrenia » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:41 pm
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:To reiterate what I said in a similar thread:
My idea of an ideal justice system is one in which there is rehabilitation for non-violent offenders, serious imprisonment terms for violent offenders, and the death penalty for dangerous psychopaths/sadists.
by Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:42 pm
Albrenia wrote:Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:To reiterate what I said in a similar thread:
My idea of an ideal justice system is one in which there is rehabilitation for non-violent offenders, serious imprisonment terms for violent offenders, and the death penalty for dangerous psychopaths/sadists.
With the exception of no death penalty and instead just life behind bars for the worst of the worst, I agree with this.
I'd also add in no parole or early release for any violent or sexual crime.
by Albrenia » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:44 pm
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Albrenia wrote:
With the exception of no death penalty and instead just life behind bars for the worst of the worst, I agree with this.
I'd also add in no parole or early release for any violent or sexual crime.
Sorry, I don't share your belief that scum like Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Osama Bin Laden, or Heinrich Himmler should get to live.
by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:22 pm
Page wrote:I entirely oppose the idea of prison inflicting suffering by design. I do not think anyone who isn't a present threat to other people's safety should be incarcerated, and I think those who are incarcerated should be treated humanely in the way that is seen in Norway. I think all people regardless of what they done should have access to reasonable comforts like wearing their own clothes, having books and television, being able to go outside, etc.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.
by Bromagia » Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:25 pm
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:To reiterate what I said in a similar thread:
My idea of an ideal justice system is one in which there is rehabilitation for non-violent offenders, serious imprisonment terms for violent offenders, and the death penalty for dangerous psychopaths/sadists.
by Diopolis » Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:32 pm
by Riria » Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:37 pm
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:To reiterate what I said in a similar thread:
My idea of an ideal justice system is one in which there is rehabilitation for non-violent offenders, serious imprisonment terms for violent offenders, and the death penalty for dangerous psychopaths/sadists.
by Shanghai industrial complex » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:02 pm
by Saiwania » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:52 pm
by Wheatonleks » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:58 pm
by Albrenia » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:00 pm
Wheatonleks wrote:There's no evidence at all that prisons actually reduce crime, but we know for a fact that they cause a lot of suffering, that a lot of innocent people get locked up, that a lot of "guilty" people didn't actually hurt anyone, prisons and police are nothing but a way for the state to increase it's power over us, to threaten us, if we got rid of them we'd actually see crime go down; because when innocents are locked up that makes it harder for them to find a job and support themselves which leads to them stealing and committing crimes to survive, the "criminal justice" system in the US doesn't prevent crime, doesn't deter crime, never has, the only thing it does is create crime and create suffering, and we'd be a lot better off without it, and without the government mandating morality and declaring what is right and wrong.
by Bromagia » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:40 pm
Wheatonleks wrote:There's no evidence at all that prisons actually reduce crime, but we know for a fact that they cause a lot of suffering, that a lot of innocent people get locked up, that a lot of "guilty" people didn't actually hurt anyone, prisons and police are nothing but a way for the state to increase it's power over us, to threaten us, if we got rid of them we'd actually see crime go down; because when innocents are locked up that makes it harder for them to find a job and support themselves which leads to them stealing and committing crimes to survive, the "criminal justice" system in the US doesn't prevent crime, doesn't deter crime, never has, the only thing it does is create crime and create suffering, and we'd be a lot better off without it, and without the government mandating morality and declaring what is right and wrong.
by Shanghai industrial complex » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:55 pm
Wheatonleks wrote:There's no evidence at all that prisons actually reduce crime, but we know for a fact that they cause a lot of suffering, that a lot of innocent people get locked up, that a lot of "guilty" people didn't actually hurt anyone, prisons and police are nothing but a way for the state to increase it's power over us, to threaten us, if we got rid of them we'd actually see crime go down; because when innocents are locked up that makes it harder for them to find a job and support themselves which leads to them stealing and committing crimes to survive, the "criminal justice" system in the US doesn't prevent crime, doesn't deter crime, never has, the only thing it does is create crime and create suffering, and we'd be a lot better off without it, and without the government mandating morality and declaring what is right and wrong.
by Kowani » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:04 pm
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Page wrote:I entirely oppose the idea of prison inflicting suffering by design. I do not think anyone who isn't a present threat to other people's safety should be incarcerated, and I think those who are incarcerated should be treated humanely in the way that is seen in Norway. I think all people regardless of what they done should have access to reasonable comforts like wearing their own clothes, having books and television, being able to go outside, etc.
Right, but until the USA has Norwegian-style workplaces and a Norwegian-style social safety net to provide Norway-level alternatives to crime, is the current approach to prison justified in (supposedly) scaring many would-be criminals out of committing crimes?
by Ankenland » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:07 am
Riria wrote:So you act opportunistically and commit fraud.
I posit that in such a scenario, we're dealing with a criminal that not only doesn't need rehabilitation, but that needed to be "habilitated" and be a well-adjusted member of society to commit the crime in the first place. So clearly, such a potential criminal would respond infinitely better to deterrence than to rehabilitation.
by Nanocyberia » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:56 am
Albrenia wrote:With the exception of no death penalty and instead just life behind bars for the worst of the worst, I agree with this.
I'd also add in no parole or early release for any violent or sexual crime.
by Riria » Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:10 am
Saiwania wrote:The data seems to indicate that people largely aren't deterred by what happens to other people. People who commit crime are opportunists who take a calculated risk that they'll get away with it, or if their morals just aren't strong to begin with. Its also possible to just have lower inhibitions or to do something on a whim or as a result of rage. In any case, at that moment they perceive the gain to be greater than whatever loss they might get, in taking on a risk- if they're going to break the law.
Ankenland wrote:This is genuinely insightful.
Some crimes are irrational, impulsive or desperate, and require no planning or reasoning. These would be good candidates for rehabilitation, for those who can rehabilitated.
Other crimes, such as a senator who uses government advanced notice about the coronavirus pandemic to do more than a million dollars worth of insider trading, are clearly the reasoned actions of habilitated individuals, and if convicted, these should be hung with rope on C-SPAN.
by Albrenia » Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:21 am
Nanocyberia wrote:Albrenia wrote:With the exception of no death penalty and instead just life behind bars for the worst of the worst, I agree with this.
I'd also add in no parole or early release for any violent or sexual crime.
Many months ago I watched a rather eye-opening documentary on a prison intended for violent criminals, located in some long-lost location in Russia.
Life imprisonment is certainly not a humane way of dealing with people. Sure, some people might be able to cope with it...but not others.
In the case of that Russian prison, a few prisoners had had their sentence changed from 'death' to 'life in prison'--within days, they committed suicide.
Human behaviour is not binary, so neither should punishments. The death penalty should be an option. Even if you initially choose life behind bars, if/when you (start to) snap mentally, you should be given psychological support, just to see if that can get you over the hump; if that still doesn't work, if you're sure you'd rather die...then so be it.
Regarding sexual crime, one of the interviewed inmates viewed it like so: to redeem yourself of raping someone, get a rope and hang yourself.
by Riria » Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:27 am
Nanocyberia wrote:Regarding sexual crime, one of the interviewed inmates viewed it like so: to redeem yourself of raping someone, get a rope and hang yourself.
by An Alan Smithee Nation » Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:41 am
Riria wrote: I believe the reason why the have less crime than most other countries lies mostly on other social and economic policies and contexts within Norway, and that therefore they have less crime in spite of how comfy their prisons are, not because of it.
by Ankenland » Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:52 am
Riria wrote:(which is to say, we are *fundamentally* aware that deterrence is less effective against this group of people than against the level-headed opportunists I talked about previously, so we levy a lighter amount of deterrence at the latter group).
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