Abortion Law Reform Passes in New Zealand

[United Muscovite Nations]

What changes in the minutes before and after birth that is a qualitative change?

We have already told you. Come on UMN.

Being inside or outside the womb is not a change in qualia anymore than me moving from one part of the room to another is a change in qualia.

[The New California Republic]

Who said that? Who?

Gren said it's not a person until it takes its first breath, which takes place after birth. That implies there is a window after birth in which the fetus may be killed with no moral repercussions.

Not what they were saying at all. You are reaching by saying there is an implication that abortion after birth, which isn't abortion anyway, is being supported.

[The New California Republic]

We have already told you. Come on UMN.

Being inside or outside the womb is not a change in qualia anymore than me moving from one part of the room to another is a change in qualia.

If you were fused with the walls of the room against the will of the room then you may have a point.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Being inside or outside the womb is not a change in qualia anymore than me moving from one part of the room to another is a change in qualia.

If you were fused with the walls of the room against the will of the room then you may have a point.

The fetus isn't in such a condition, as it will be born in moments. It is nothing more than a change of location, not a change in physical qualities.

[The New California Republic]

If you were fused with the walls of the room against the will of the room then you may have a point.

The fetus isn't in such a condition, as it will be born in moments. It is nothing more than a change of location, not a change in physical qualities.

But the circumstances you are talking about are very late term abortions, which are heavily restricted anyway and thus extremely rare; the vast majority of abortions take place before 12 weeks.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The fetus isn't in such a condition, as it will be born in moments. It is nothing more than a change of location, not a change in physical qualities.

But the circumstances you are talking about are very late term abortions, which are heavily restricted anyway and thus extremely rare; the vast majority of abortions take place before 12 weeks.

Yes. But that is why I object so strongly to the idea that late term abortions not being morally squicky is a moderate or reasonable position. Even from a secular position, it is extreme.

[The Free Joy State]

As for the topic, this is good news for the women of New Zealand.

I don't care how good you think you are, six feet is a hell of a distance to impregnate someone from.

I bet Superman could do it.

One might wonder how on earth he'd ever take flight...

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

But the circumstances you are talking about are very late term abortions, which are heavily restricted anyway and thus extremely rare; the vast majority of abortions take place before 12 weeks.

Yes. But that is why I object so strongly to the idea that late term abortions not being morally squicky is a moderate or reasonable position. Even from a secular position, it is extreme.

Considering the relative frequency of such abortions, I’d say it is rather something of a non-issue. By the 20 week point the mother has generally decided to keep the pregnancy to term anyway, barring some form of medical emergency or fetal abnormalities.

It isn’t an issue where the woman goes right up to birth then says ‘SYKE!’ and flings the newborn out a window, and its downright foolish to focus so hard on that specific moment.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yes. But that is why I object so strongly to the idea that late term abortions not being morally squicky is a moderate or reasonable position. Even from a secular position, it is extreme.

Considering the relative frequency of such abortions, I’d say it is rather something of a non-issue. By the 20 week point the mother has generally decided to keep the pregnancy to term anyway, barring some form of medical emergency or fetal abnormalities.

It isn’t an issue where the woman goes right up to birth then says ‘SYKE!’ and flings the newborn out a window, and its downright foolish to focus so hard on that specific moment.

Could you clarify what you mean by this? It's a wide range of things, at morally best it means abnormalities that would kill the fetus and so would totally justify abortion, but one could interpret it to also mean any number of not-inherently-fatal disabilities.

[The New California Republic]

But the circumstances you are talking about are very late term abortions, which are heavily restricted anyway and thus extremely rare; the vast majority of abortions take place before 12 weeks.

Yes. But that is why I object so strongly to the idea that late term abortions not being morally squicky is a moderate or reasonable position. Even from a secular position, it is extreme.

But again abortions at the moment just before birth are so fucking ridiculously unheard of—I'm certainly not aware of it happening—that it can be dismissed as a non-issue. You are focusing on something that will be a minuscule fraction of a percentage point of all abortions, i.e. picking at straws.

[Godular]

Considering the relative frequency of such abortions, I’d say it is rather something of a non-issue. By the 20 week point the mother has generally decided to keep the pregnancy to term anyway, barring some form of medical emergency or fetal abnormalities.

It isn’t an issue where the woman goes right up to birth then says ‘SYKE!’ and flings the newborn out a window, and its downright foolish to focus so hard on that specific moment.

Could you clarify what you mean by this? It's a wide range of things, at morally best it means abnormalities that would kill the fetus and so would totally justify abortion, but one could interpret it to also mean any number of not-inherently-fatal disabilities.

Aye, they could. But ‘not inherently fatal’ does not necessarily mean ‘not inherently painless’ either. Parents are going to have different ideas on what they are prepared to handle, and whether they are willing to subject a new life to severely degraded quality of life.

[Grenartia]

You must've missed the point where I specified first breath. That's not really arbitrary at all.

It's completely arbitrary. There are no qualitative changes in the minute before and the minute after.

Not really. If the first breath does not take place, the newborn is going to die. Breathing is essential to life. That's an incredibly obvious statement, but I have to say it to hammer home the point that there are in fact, qualitative changes in the minute before the first breath and the minute after.

[United Muscovite Nations]

It's completely arbitrary. There are no qualitative changes in the minute before and the minute after.

Not really. If the first breath does not take place, the newborn is going to die. Breathing is essential to life. That's an incredibly obvious statement, but I have to say it to hammer home the point that there are in fact, qualitative changes in the minute before the first breath and the minute after.

By this logic there are qualitative changes regarding personhood when you are put on a ventilator going into surgery.

[Grenartia]

Not really. If the first breath does not take place, the newborn is going to die. Breathing is essential to life. That's an incredibly obvious statement, but I have to say it to hammer home the point that there are in fact, qualitative changes in the minute before the first breath and the minute after.

By this logic there are qualitative changes regarding personhood when you are put on a ventilator going into surgery.

No. That does not follow.

[United Muscovite Nations]

By this logic there are qualitative changes regarding personhood when you are put on a ventilator going into surgery.

No. That does not follow.

Yes it does. If you are not put on the ventilator, you will die. It is essential to your life. It is a qualitative change between being under anesthetic vs being off of it.

[The New California Republic]

No. That does not follow.

Yes it does. If you are not put on the ventilator, you will die. It is essential to your life. It is a qualitative change between being under anesthetic vs being off of it.

No, because the person in question has already had that quality, while the foetus has never had it. However all of this is still picking at straws.

[The Alma Mater]

Yes. But that is why I object so strongly to the idea that late term abortions not being morally squicky is a moderate or reasonable position. Even from a secular position, it is extreme.

But again abortions at the moment just before birth are so fucking ridiculously unheard of—I'm certainly not aware of it happening—that it can be dismissed as a non-issue.

It happens quite often actually. Of course, the fetus tends to survive this abortion of the pregnancy just fine; so no one objects to it.

To emphasise: an abortion is ending a pregnancy prematurely. While the fetus tends to not survive that in the early stages, it does usually survive near birth. It is not like doctors will then hit it with sticks to kill it.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yes it does. If you are not put on the ventilator, you will die. It is essential to your life. It is a qualitative change between being under anesthetic vs being off of it.

No, because the person in question has already had that quality, while the foetus has never had it. However all of this is still picking at straws.

They don't possess the quality when on it, it doesn't matter if they had it at one point. Under anesthetic, they are no more a "person" than a corpse, by Grenartia's argument.

[Godular]

Good lord... could we cut this line out? Whether it's taken its first breath or not is an immaterial argument anyway, as abortion procedures at that moment generally work to maintain the life of the fetus/child anyway. A C-section is a form of abortion, for crying out loud.

[The New California Republic]

But again abortions at the moment just before birth are so fucking ridiculously unheard of—I'm certainly not aware of it happening—that it can be dismissed as a non-issue.

It happens quite often actually. Of course, the fetus tends to survive this abortion of the pregnancy just fine; so no one objects to it.

To emphasise: an abortion is ending a pregnancy prematurely. While the fetus tends to not survive that in the early stages, it does usually survive near birth. It is not like doctors will then hit it with sticks to kill it.

For the purposes of the current discussion though that UMN seems to be focusing on, we are meaning very late term abortion in the context of killing the foetus, which as I have said is so staggeringly rare as to essentially be a non-issue.

[The New California Republic]

No, because the person in question has already had that quality, while the foetus has never had it. However all of this is still picking at straws.

They don't possess the quality when on it, it doesn't matter if they had it at one point. Under anesthetic, they are no more a "person" than a corpse, by Grenartia's argument.

As has been said though it is a non-issue.

[Katganistan]

I apologize if the question is already answered, as I did not read whole thread.

Just a question: if abortion=murder, then should women who had abortion have same punishment as 'regular murderers' ?
Second question- what about doctors who are making it happen? Do they also deserve to be punished?

Since it's not murder, no and no.

[Purple Rats]

I apologize if the question is already answered, as I did not read whole thread.

Just a question: if abortion=murder, then should women who had abortion have same punishment as 'regular murderers' ?
Second question- what about doctors who are making it happen? Do they also deserve to be punished?

Since it's not murder, no and no.

I agree with you, but I mean about pro-life people, that's why i asked "IF abortion=murder", I don't think it is.

[Ayytaly]

Did the Maorī support this bill?

[Godular]

Did the Maorī support this bill?

*Reads up on Maori views on abortion, finds historical articles on subject*

I'm... not entirely sure you want to go that route.