Abortion Law Reform Passes in New Zealand

[Australian rePublic]

Abortion after rape= acceptable
Abortion when not rape= murder

This is a drastic reduction of what you said earlier.

What about if a woman uses contraception, and her partner does too, and she still gets pregnant?

Is it "acceptable" or is it "murder" to then get a termination?

Murder. Everything in life has consequences. Whether it's right or wrong, whether pleseant or unpleseant. If you invest your entire lifesavings in the world's biggest company on the stock market, and it goes broke, the you have to live the consequneces of losing your savings. If you play $10,000 at the casino, you run the risk of losing 100% of the money. Similarly, if you have sex, you run the risk of both of your cintroceptives failing and getting pregnant. Things in life have consequences. That's one of them. You knew that controseptives weren't 100% effective, and you still agreed to use it. You took a gamble, you lost, you live with the consequences. As long no one cheats. If someone cheats, it changes everything

[The New California Republic]

This is a drastic reduction of what you said earlier.

What about if a woman uses contraception, and her partner does too, and she still gets pregnant?

Is it "acceptable" or is it "murder" to then get a termination?

Murder. Everything in life has consequences. Whether it's right or wrong, whether pleseant or unpleseant. If you invest your entire lifesavings in the world's biggest company on the stock market, and it goes broke, the you have to live the consequneces of losing your savings. If you play $10,000 at the casino, you run the risk of losing 100% of the money. Similarly, if you have sex, you run the risk of both of your cintroceptives failing and getting pregnant. Things in life have consequences. That's one of them. You knew that controseptives weren't 100% effective, and you still agreed to use it. You took a gamble, you lost, you live with the consequences

Pregnancy as punishment for sex. Everybody drink.

[Australian rePublic]

Abortion after rape= acceptable
Abortion when not rape= murder

Except it isn't.

Yes it is. Killing an innocent person is murder. Personhood starts when the sperm meets the egg and the zygot starts to form as an independent entity

[Nakena]

Except it isn't.

Yes it is. Killing an innocent person is murder. Personhood starts when the sperm meets the egg and the zygot starts to form as an independent entity

no it doesnt.

[Grenartia]

Except it isn't.

Yes it is. Killing an innocent person is murder. Personhood starts when the sperm meets the egg and the zygot starts to form as an independent entity

Personhood begins when the first breath is taken.

[The New California Republic]

Except it isn't.

Yes it is. Killing an innocent person is murder. Personhood starts when the sperm meets the egg and the zygot starts to form as an independent entity

No it doesn't.

[Australian rePublic]

Murder. Everything in life has consequences. Whether it's right or wrong, whether pleseant or unpleseant. If you invest your entire lifesavings in the world's biggest company on the stock market, and it goes broke, the you have to live the consequneces of losing your savings. If you play $10,000 at the casino, you run the risk of losing 100% of the money. Similarly, if you have sex, you run the risk of both of your cintroceptives failing and getting pregnant. Things in life have consequences. That's one of them. You knew that controseptives weren't 100% effective, and you still agreed to use it. You took a gamble, you lost, you live with the consequences

Pregnancy as punishment for sex. Everybody drink.

I never said it was a punishment for sex. You intentionally strawmanned me. Using the same logic that you applied to this post, then you would also accuse me of saying bankruptcy is a punishment for investing in the stock market, and I definately didn't say. If you're gonna intentionally misinterprete what I say, then you can draw a whole bunch of false conclusions about what I said. What I said was if you have sex, you gamble with pregnancy. Losing at gambling is very different to being punishment

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

Except it isn't.

Yes it is. Killing an innocent person is murder. Personhood starts when the sperm meets the egg and the zygot starts to form as an independent entity

Except it isn’t. Even if the fetus had the rights a born person would, it still would not have the right to use the woman’s body without her consent. Innocence is an emotional appeal that has no relevance to the matter.

[Australian rePublic]

Yes it is. Killing an innocent person is murder. Personhood starts when the sperm meets the egg and the zygot starts to form as an independent entity

Personhood begins when the first breath is taken.

And when is that?

[The New California Republic]

Murder. Everything in life has consequences. Whether it's right or wrong, whether pleseant or unpleseant. If you invest your entire lifesavings in the world's biggest company on the stock market, and it goes broke, the you have to live the consequneces of losing your savings. If you play $10,000 at the casino, you run the risk of losing 100% of the money. Similarly, if you have sex, you run the risk of both of your cintroceptives failing and getting pregnant. Things in life have consequences. That's one of them. You knew that controseptives weren't 100% effective, and you still agreed to use it. You took a gamble, you lost, you live with the consequences

Pregnancy as punishment for sex. Everybody drink.

I never said it was a punishment for sex. You intentionally strawmanned me. Using the same logic that you applied to this post, then you would also accuse me of saying bankruptcy is a punishment for investing in the stock market, and I definately didn't say. If you're gonna intentionally misinterprete what I say, then you can draw a whole bunch of false conclusions about what I said. What I said was if you have sex, you gamble with pregnancy. Losing at gambling is very different to being punishment

Except that's exactly what you are treating it as. You are treating pregnancy as punishment for sex.

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

Pregnancy as punishment for sex. Everybody drink.

I never said it was a punishment for sex. You intentionally strawmanned me. Using the same logic that you applied to this post, then you would also accuse me of saying bankruptcy is a punishment for investing in the stock market, and I definately didn't say. If you're gonna intentionally misinterprete what I say, then you can draw a whole bunch of false conclusions about what I said. What I said was if you have sex, you gamble with pregnancy. Losing at gambling is very different to being punishment

And getting an abortion is dealing with those ‘consequences’. You might not like the idea but that makes it no less true.

[Australian rePublic]

Yes it is. Killing an innocent person is murder. Personhood starts when the sperm meets the egg and the zygot starts to form as an independent entity

Except it isn’t. Even if the fetus had the rights a born person would, it still would not have the right to use the woman’s body without her consent. Innocence is an emotional appeal that has no relevance to the matter.

Except, if we ignore baby formula (as it is an extremely recent invention) the baby still relies on the woman's body. It has to breast feed. Does that we mean we kill babies until they stop breast feeding because they rely on their mothers for breast feed. What if the woman doesn't wanna breast feed?

[Australian rePublic]

I never said it was a punishment for sex. You intentionally strawmanned me. Using the same logic that you applied to this post, then you would also accuse me of saying bankruptcy is a punishment for investing in the stock market, and I definately didn't say. If you're gonna intentionally misinterprete what I say, then you can draw a whole bunch of false conclusions about what I said. What I said was if you have sex, you gamble with pregnancy. Losing at gambling is very different to being punishment

And getting an abortion is dealing with those ‘consequences’. You might not like the idea but that makes it no less true.

No. Getting an abortion is murder. You deal with the consequences, not your baby

[Vassenor]

And getting an abortion is dealing with those ‘consequences’. You might not like the idea but that makes it no less true.

No. Getting an abortion is murder. You deal with the consequences, not your baby

So why does that fetus have rights that no-one else gets?

[Alvecia]

And getting an abortion is dealing with those ‘consequences’. You might not like the idea but that makes it no less true.

No. Getting an abortion is murder. You deal with the consequences, not your baby

Getting rid of the foetus is dealing with the consequences

[Australian rePublic]

I never said it was a punishment for sex. You intentionally strawmanned me. Using the same logic that you applied to this post, then you would also accuse me of saying bankruptcy is a punishment for investing in the stock market, and I definately didn't say. If you're gonna intentionally misinterprete what I say, then you can draw a whole bunch of false conclusions about what I said. What I said was if you have sex, you gamble with pregnancy. Losing at gambling is very different to being punishment

Except that's exactly what you are treating it as. You are treating pregnancy as punishment for sex.

No I am not. Once again, are you also going to accuse me of treating investing on the stock market as a punishment for bankruptcy? Or do you equate losing a wager to punishment?

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

Except it isn’t. Even if the fetus had the rights a born person would, it still would not have the right to use the woman’s body without her consent. Innocence is an emotional appeal that has no relevance to the matter.

Except, if we ignore baby formula (as it is an extremely recent invention) the baby still relies on the woman's body. It has to breast feed. Does that we mean we kill babies until they stop breast feeding because they rely on their mothers for breast feed. What if the woman doesn't wanna breast feed?

The irony here is you were complaining (wrongfully) about strawmanning earlier, and now you are actually strawmanning here.

Stop using dumbshit slippery slopes to represent your nonexistent point.

[The New California Republic]

Except it isn’t. Even if the fetus had the rights a born person would, it still would not have the right to use the woman’s body without her consent. Innocence is an emotional appeal that has no relevance to the matter.

Except, if we ignore baby formula (as it is an extremely recent invention) the baby still relies on the woman's body. It has to breast feed. Does that we mean we kill babies until they stop breast feeding because they rely on their mothers for breast feed. What if the woman doesn't wanna breast feed?

Your example is flawed, as the foetus is connected to the woman, inhabiting her body, but a baby is not. The fact that you say "ignore baby formula" shows that you know this argument is threadbare at best if you need to ignore things that exist for your argument to work.

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

And getting an abortion is dealing with those ‘consequences’. You might not like the idea but that makes it no less true.

No. Getting an abortion is murder. You deal with the consequences, not your baby

Incorrect on all fronts.

[Australian rePublic]

No. Getting an abortion is murder. You deal with the consequences, not your baby

So why does that fetus have rights that no-one else gets?

Everyone gets the right to life

[Australian rePublic]

No. Getting an abortion is murder. You deal with the consequences, not your baby

Incorrect on all fronts.

Why? You deal with the consequences. Your baby does not deal with the consequences. Why is that incorrect?

[Agarntrop]

I am getting kinda sick of this thread going back and forth between "life begins at conception" and "life begins at birth!" followed by a literal pantomime of "oh yes it is!" and "oh no it isnt!" without any evidence or additional or useful material being used in the process.

If you asked me, I'd say life dosen't start at any particular moment but rather develops during pregnancy, kinda like a loading bar that lasts 9 months, and during that period in between the fetus is neither fully dead or alive, but becomes more alive as the pregnancy goes on. At least that's what most of the science says.

Personally, I think that abortion should be legal on demand until the fetus develops a neural net, usually around 20 weeks, then it should be allowed under extreme circumstances. I think that's a fair position to hold, and would probably be classed as pro-choice in most countries excluding the US and Canada.

[Australian rePublic]

Life begins at birth, ha? So the act of pushing a baby of a vagina is what creates personhood? So what about cesarean?

[Vassenor]

So why does that fetus have rights that no-one else gets?

Everyone gets the right to life

And who else gets the right to make use of another person's body without their consent?

[Vassenor]

Life begins at birth, ha? So the act of pushing a baby of a vagina is what creates personhood? So what about cesarean?

This isn't the Scottish Play. Cesarean is still birth.