Open vs. closed borders, and tourism vs. work

[Satuga]

-snip-

On the illegal immigrant part, it has been proven that illegal immigrants do not cause terrorism. According to the Cato Institute, the chance of dying from an illegal immigrant in a terrorist attack is..zero. Grandtotal. The chance of being injured? Zero. All foreign born terrorist? While it is somewhat high from refugees, illegal immigrants make up a tiny percentage.

That's just statistically wrong, there is always a chance for something to happen, it will literally never be zero, it may be a small percentage chance sure, but it will never be zero.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Not how the healthcare system in Europe works, and lots of Europeans are Capitalist worshiping countries. There's the UK and France with capitalism light, and arguably Germany. Eastern Europe was madly pro-capitalist in the 1990s, and drug prices stayed low. Canada's mostly capitalist. The reason for low drug prices everywhere except for the US, is because Americans actually bought the bullshit "we need this for research purposes" argument, hook, line, and sinker. Time to return said argument and demand that no tariffs be placed on vital medical prescriptions, over vital medical over the counter drugs; and let's end medical patent trolling while we're at it.

Or you could nationalize it and require every formerly-private pharmaceutical firm open the books so we can all see for ourselves just how much of that money actually went into R&D; and of that, how much of it needed to.

Let's take a look at that: it cost roughly $1.6 million to start up a McDonald's franchise, commercial loans are typically around 5%, so you're looking at $80,000 in interest. A typical franchise makes roughly $150,000 in profit, over half of which goes to interest. Furthermore, the profit excludes the owner's time, and $70k is a reasonable salary for a franchisee. It's not going broke, but it is barely scraping to get by. And I picked McDonald's because it is the most popular franchise.

Is this the same in Scandinavia, or different?

Nordic countries also have huge benefits, including free medical care. China really fucked up with the current pandemic. I think that we hold very similar views in that aspect, so I'll go back to the Nordic Model, and avoid sidetracking the debate, although I'll note that I certainly became more critical of China as a result of the Coronavirus that originated in the Wuhan province where the whistleblower against Chinese Government allegedly died from Coronavirus, which had nothing to do with Corona Beer.

Anyways, if you're a Swedish citizen, you get free healthcare, amazing social safety net, free college education, etc. So if you factor all of that in, you'll realize that the Nordic Citizens actually get what they paid for.

I absolutely agree. But none of this is part of the fast food company's revenue stream. So it still shows that these workers get paid more than Americans do to do the same job that Americans do.

I agree, so why not do that?

Which proposal are you referring to again? The one that includes stepping up enforcement against hiring illegal immigrants in the first place? I want to prioritize the more-justified laws, giving people more incentive to abide by them, even if they've already broken the less-justified laws, making clear to as many people as possible they've so little left to lose.

Under normal circumstances conservatives cried wolf about migrants bringing violent crime when they're actually earning their keep. No wonder centrists and liberals alike were hesitant to close the borders against a real threat.

Fuck no. TYT has way too much personal bias, where the anchors let their egos go to their heads. They also deny the Armenian Genocide, the founder supported rape and bestiality, and so on.

Gonna need a valid source on that one.

"Personal bias" is something we all have. I'm not asking for "neutrality," but for honesty. What's good about Cenk and Ana's personal biases is at least they're less partisan and more in favour of ideas in and of itself; so they'll call Obama out on drone strikes and Clinton out on "welfare reform" (and even his scandal with Monica!) and give even a Republican candidate credit where credit is due.

When it comes to elections, where your vote matters, way more than you think, the owners' bias takes over the numbers game, because during election cycles, certain owners don't give a shit about how many people they lose, as long as their candidate wins. And being owners, they can put you out on the street, and make it so that no major studio will hire you.

Credit where credit is due, it's refreshing to see a conservative honest and independent-minded enough to call out corporate nepotism that even many mainstream leftists tiptoe around; I think I might have misjudged you a bit earlier.

True, and I doubt that people will stay in homes for too long. Michigan's already facing a boycott. We're social animals, we need to go out and be with each other. Those who get in the way of that, in the long term, will be swept away by society's anger.

This crisis certainly is helping distinguish the "freedom, even if people have to die" types from the "freedom, because I don't think the alternative is going to get people killed anyway" types in clearer ways than climate change ever did.

Too bad thousands had to die for us to discover this, though.

It's not just that, it's also the quality of teaching. 20/20 did a great documentary on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUmcjbSHYq0

I'll keep that documentary in mind; for now, I'll just say that I'm well aware US education is subpar and Finland does a better job of it. But in the meantime, if reality teaches foreigners so much more effectively than school teaches Americans, maybe replacing the kids Americans aren't having with foreign migrant labour isn't such a bad thing.

Oh, I was referring to Mexico opening up land in Texas for Gringos. Then Gringos come and declare independence. War results. As a result of this war, and the subsequent one, Mexico lost not just Texas, but also Arizona, New Mexico, and California; only the Gadsden Area was purchased. Granted, not the same, but if you don't property integrate immigrants, they're going to form their own communities, and then start wondering: "what're we paying the Government for? Wouldn't it be better for us to run it?" And it's all downhill from there.

If that's what they decide, then that's what they'll do. They'll have their reasons.

[Accelerationist Poland-Lithuania]

At this point is the question whether globalisation should survive, or whether it will? I'm very interested to see how its future looks given the people in charge want to keep it around to some extent but current events haven't been too kind to it. Hard to have tourism during a pandemic.

[Shofercia]

Not how the healthcare system in Europe works, and lots of Europeans are Capitalist worshiping countries. There's the UK and France with capitalism light, and arguably Germany. Eastern Europe was madly pro-capitalist in the 1990s, and drug prices stayed low. Canada's mostly capitalist. The reason for low drug prices everywhere except for the US, is because Americans actually bought the bullshit "we need this for research purposes" argument, hook, line, and sinker. Time to return said argument and demand that no tariffs be placed on vital medical prescriptions, over vital medical over the counter drugs; and let's end medical patent trolling while we're at it.

Or you could nationalize it and require every formerly-private pharmaceutical firm open the books so we can all see for ourselves just how much of that money actually went into R&D; and of that, how much of it needed to.

You don't have to nationalize the industry to require the pharmaceutical companies to open their books; you can simply pass a law saying that any pharmaceutical companies wanting to operate in the US after 2021, must open their books. I'd support that.

Let's take a look at that: it cost roughly $1.6 million to start up a McDonald's franchise, commercial loans are typically around 5%, so you're looking at $80,000 in interest. A typical franchise makes roughly $150,000 in profit, over half of which goes to interest. Furthermore, the profit excludes the owner's time, and $70k is a reasonable salary for a franchisee. It's not going broke, but it is barely scraping to get by. And I picked McDonald's because it is the most popular franchise.

Is this the same in Scandinavia, or different?

Probably different; I doubt that business owners would be working for free when their businesses aren't making any money.

Nordic countries also have huge benefits, including free medical care. China really fucked up with the current pandemic. I think that we hold very similar views in that aspect, so I'll go back to the Nordic Model, and avoid sidetracking the debate, although I'll note that I certainly became more critical of China as a result of the Coronavirus that originated in the Wuhan province where the whistleblower against Chinese Government allegedly died from Coronavirus, which had nothing to do with Corona Beer.

Anyways, if you're a Swedish citizen, you get free healthcare, amazing social safety net, free college education, etc. So if you factor all of that in, you'll realize that the Nordic Citizens actually get what they paid for.

I absolutely agree. But none of this is part of the fast food company's revenue stream. So it still shows that these workers get paid more than Americans do to do the same job that Americans do.

True, but there are different payments for doing the same job all over the World. A US doctor gets paid more than a Polish doctor for doing the exact same thing.

I agree, so why not do that?

Which proposal are you referring to again? The one that includes stepping up enforcement against hiring illegal immigrants in the first place? I want to prioritize the more-justified laws, giving people more incentive to abide by them, even if they've already broken the less-justified laws, making clear to as many people as possible they've so little left to lose.

Under normal circumstances conservatives cried wolf about migrants bringing violent crime when they're actually earning their keep. No wonder centrists and liberals alike were hesitant to close the borders against a real threat.

My proposal would've affected companies that hired illegal immigrants AND vastly underpaid them. However, since I highly doubt that there are many companies vastly underpaying US citizens or legal immigrants, I willing to compromise and take the language regarding illegal immigration out of the text of the law entirely. I'm open to compromise.

Fuck no. TYT has way too much personal bias, where the anchors let their egos go to their heads. They also deny the Armenian Genocide, the founder supported rape and bestiality, and so on.

Gonna need a valid source on that one.

"Personal bias" is something we all have. I'm not asking for "neutrality," but for honesty. What's good about Cenk and Ana's personal biases is at least they're less partisan and more in favour of ideas in and of itself; so they'll call Obama out on drone strikes and Clinton out on "welfare reform" (and even his scandal with Monica!) and give even a Republican candidate credit where credit is due.

That's a fair request:
Beastiality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssqjxt2m_Aw (with a very inappropriate joke at the end)
Rape: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA12jcRGn-4
Denial of Armenian Genocide: https://www.ora.tv/thelowdownwithlalo/a ... n-genocide

In 1908, under the Ottoman Empire, a political group named the Young Turks waged a rebellion against Sultan Abdul Hamid II forcing him out of political office. By 1915, this political party would become the perpetrators of what has come to be known as the Armenian Genocide, in which up to 1.5 million were estimated to have been systematically dislocated, tortured, and massacred. This event culminated on 24 April 1915, when Young Turk members arrested, and later killed, 250 various Armenian intellectuals and community leaders in the Ottoman capital of Constantinople. The evidence confirming the Armenian Genocide is not only abundant, but also dishearteningly tragic.

In 1915, The New York Times alone published 145 articles describing the Armenian massacres as "systematic" and "authorized and organized by the government." Leslie A. Davis, American Consul to the US Ambassador to Turkey, wrote:

"Practically every male Armenian of any consequence at all here has been arrested and put in prison. A great many of them were subjected to the most cruel tortures under which some of them died. Another method was found, however, to destroy the Armenian race. This is no less than the deportation of the entire Armenian population, not only from this province, but, I understand, from all six provinces comprising Armenia. For people travelling as these Armenians who are going into exile will be obliged to travel it is certain death for by far the greater part of them."

Who did they name their show after? The Young Turks. Those young Turks. Then he denied the genocide, but the line now seems to me "well it might've happened, but..." like a Klansman going "well I don't view all blacks as monkeys, but..." Name of the show is still spitting in the face of Armenians, especially those with families who survived the genocide.

When it comes to elections, where your vote matters, way more than you think, the owners' bias takes over the numbers game, because during election cycles, certain owners don't give a shit about how many people they lose, as long as their candidate wins. And being owners, they can put you out on the street, and make it so that no major studio will hire you.

Credit where credit is due, it's refreshing to see a conservative honest and independent-minded enough to call out corporate nepotism that even many mainstream leftists tiptoe around; I think I might have misjudged you a bit earlier.

Thank you!

True, and I doubt that people will stay in homes for too long. Michigan's already facing a boycott. We're social animals, we need to go out and be with each other. Those who get in the way of that, in the long term, will be swept away by society's anger.

This crisis certainly is helping distinguish the "freedom, even if people have to die" types from the "freedom, because I don't think the alternative is going to get people killed anyway" types in clearer ways than climate change ever did.

Too bad thousands had to die for us to discover this, though.

True, but something like this was going to happen sooner or later.

It's not just that, it's also the quality of teaching. 20/20 did a great documentary on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUmcjbSHYq0

I'll keep that documentary in mind; for now, I'll just say that I'm well aware US education is subpar and Finland does a better job of it. But in the meantime, if reality teaches foreigners so much more effectively than school teaches Americans, maybe replacing the kids Americans aren't having with foreign migrant labour isn't such a bad thing.

I'd rather improve education, by funding money directly to salaries of new teachers, and said money could easily be found by raiding administrative pension plans for administrators who earn over $10,000 a month on their pensions and benefits, setting up online education and lectures, said money could easily be found by bombing one less country than the US usually does, and so on. Because Asia's rising, Africa's rising, Latin America's sort of rising, and Europeans aren't going to come, en masse, just to have their eventual kids fucked over by the education system. Either way, education system needs to be vastly improved.

Oh, I was referring to Mexico opening up land in Texas for Gringos. Then Gringos come and declare independence. War results. As a result of this war, and the subsequent one, Mexico lost not just Texas, but also Arizona, New Mexico, and California; only the Gadsden Area was purchased. Granted, not the same, but if you don't property integrate immigrants, they're going to form their own communities, and then start wondering: "what're we paying the Government for? Wouldn't it be better for us to run it?" And it's all downhill from there.

If that's what they decide, then that's what they'll do. They'll have their reasons.

And it's the Government's job to stop that from happening, by limiting immigration to an acceptable amount, and by providing programs that enable immigrants integrate into the American Lifestyle.

[Shofercia]

At this point is the question whether globalisation should survive, or whether it will? I'm very interested to see how its future looks given the people in charge want to keep it around to some extent but current events haven't been too kind to it. Hard to have tourism during a pandemic.

Globalization is going to survive - the real question is whether we need globalized institution to the degree that we currently have, or whether or not they're just bloated administrative bureaucracies that need to be removed and replaced with leaner, and more efficient organizations. For instance, the UNSC works, and only time people bitch about it, (typically,) is when there's veto they don't like, while failing to realize that war's the alternative. Certain other organizations, like the one that shall not be named, seem to be rather bloated.

[Ayytaly]

Integrating into the "American" lifestyle? What is this, an Indian boarding school?

[Shofercia]

Integrating into the "American" lifestyle? What is this, an Indian boarding school?

Unless you're referring to the country of India, I don't understand where you're coming from, considering that Native Americans are, by definition, lifestyle, and purpose - American. The hint's sort of in the name.

[Ayytaly]

Integrating into the "American" lifestyle? What is this, an Indian boarding school?

Unless you're referring to the country of India, I don't understand where you're coming from, considering that Native Americans are, by definition, lifestyle, and purpose - American. The hint's sort of in the name.

Is the English language "American", then? Because that's what boarding schools torturously drilled into the indigenous pupils for decades. And it seems that your definition of "American" is culturally, socially, and linguistically Anglo-Saxon in origin. Nothing American about that.

[Neu Leonstein]

At this point is the question whether globalisation should survive, or whether it will? I'm very interested to see how its future looks given the people in charge want to keep it around to some extent but current events haven't been too kind to it. Hard to have tourism during a pandemic.

Much as it might be the wet dream of some of the stunted cellar dwellers out there, the answer is no. There is nothing to see here. Cross-border restrictions are no different from intra-border restrictions. The rationale for both of them is absolutely identical. Anyone who thinks that border closures and travel restrictions are something that should hang around after this little hick-up is over should also argue that intra-national or interstate travel restrictions should become permanent, or social distancing measures as a whole. Pandemics predate the 21st century, and as any medieval peasant would attest, reversing globalisation is not an effective means to stop the spread of disease.

[Shofercia]

Unless you're referring to the country of India, I don't understand where you're coming from, considering that Native Americans are, by definition, lifestyle, and purpose - American. The hint's sort of in the name.

Is the English language "American", then? Because that's what boarding schools torturously drilled into the indigenous pupils for decades. And it seems that your definition of "American" is culturally, socially, and linguistically Anglo-Saxon in origin. Nothing American about that.

We sort of need to have this language thingy in order to communicate, and since most Americans speak English, it sort of makes sense to use that. Think of it as Galactic Common. As far as the American Lifestyle, there's a lot more to it than talking, unless you're a politicians. As for you assuming what my definition of American Lifestyle is, please don't, because you just failed. Anglo-Saxon means Angles and Saxons, and Saxons came from Germany, where they speak Germanic. It's a tough concept, but I'm sure you'll understand it.

As far as being Culturally American, that ranges quite a bit, depending on where you're at: there's California's Beach Culture, NorCal Culture, SoCal Culture, Redneck Culture, Hippie Culture, Tech Culture, Wine Culture, etc, etc, etc. You just mix and match, depending on where you're at. For instance, the Native American Agua Caliente Tribe in Palm Springs have their own unique Culture, that's also a part of American Culture.

Socially - erm, America's fairly corporatist-capitalist, so socially you make sure that you're making enough money, forming alliances with others to ensure that you don't get fucked over by the corporacracy, buying a house, and raising a family. Seems fairly straight forward.

As for Native American Boarding Schools, they were an atrocity, a dark spot on America's History. Not sure why you're helplessly pretending that I defended them, considering that never happened in reality. But yes, I do think that you should learn the language of the country you're immigrating to. Considering that Native Americans aren't immigrants, that rule clearly doesn't apply to the Native Americans. Are you done with your assumptions?

[Shofercia]

At this point is the question whether globalisation should survive, or whether it will? I'm very interested to see how its future looks given the people in charge want to keep it around to some extent but current events haven't been too kind to it. Hard to have tourism during a pandemic.

Much as it might be the wet dream of some of the stunted cellar dwellers out there, the answer is no. There is nothing to see here. Cross-border restrictions are no different from intra-border restrictions. The rationale for both of them is absolutely identical. Anyone who thinks that border closures and travel restrictions are something that should hang around after this little hick-up is over should also argue that intra-national or interstate travel restrictions should become permanent, or social distancing measures as a whole. Pandemics predate the 21st century, and as any medieval peasant would attest, reversing globalisation is not an effective means to stop the spread of disease.

There's nothing to see when a major international organization's abilities are called into question by the leader of the free world? I'm guessing there was nothing to see with BREXIT as well.

[Albrenia]

There's nothing to see when a major international organization's abilities are called into question by the leader of the free world? I'm guessing there was nothing to see with BREXIT as well.

I don't think many people think of Trump as leader of the Free World anymore. I'm not sure anyone fits that title right now, to be fair.

[Shofercia]

There's nothing to see when a major international organization's abilities are called into question by the leader of the free world? I'm guessing there was nothing to see with BREXIT as well.

I don't think many people think of Trump as leader of the Free World anymore. I'm not sure anyone fits that title right now, to be fair.

The US is the most powerful country, and has relatively free elections. As thus, President Trump is the leader of the Free World. Even if others don't see him as such, it doesn't make it untrue.

[Albrenia]

I don't think many people think of Trump as leader of the Free World anymore. I'm not sure anyone fits that title right now, to be fair.

The US is the most powerful country, and has relatively free elections. As thus, President Trump is the leader of the Free World. Even if others don't see him as such, it doesn't make it untrue.

It's certainly the most powerful nation with relatively free elections, I just usually considered the term to be why when George W said "hey let's blow up Iraq because of WMDs lol" a bunch of other countries joined in (eventually, anyway).

[The Grims]

I don't think many people think of Trump as leader of the Free World anymore. I'm not sure anyone fits that title right now, to be fair.

The US is the most powerful country, and has relatively free elections. As thus, President Trump is the leader of the Free World. Even if others don't see him as such, it doesn't make it untrue.

Does he also have the most influence ? Being powerful helps, but if everyone believes you are a retarded buffoon and never takes you seriously you are not the leader. A figurehead at most.

[Shofercia]

The US is the most powerful country, and has relatively free elections. As thus, President Trump is the leader of the Free World. Even if others don't see him as such, it doesn't make it untrue.

Does he also have the most influence ? Being powerful helps, but if everyone believes you are a retarded buffoon and never takes you seriously you are not the leader. A figurehead at most.

I doubt that anyone who could win the US presidency is a retarded buffoon. He might act like a retarded buffoon on twitter, but I doubt that any of 21st century presidents, and we can even include Bill Clinton among those ranks, would've been able to withstand the media bombardment to their reputation that President Trump's experiencing. And yeah, he's definitely the most powerful person for the next year or five, who's more powerful than him? (Granted, half a year, but still...)